SkyDekker 1,465 #51 July 28, 2004 QuoteI may disagree with and vote differently for the candidate based on his or her religion - but I am not going to go off and scream and yell and tell them that they cannot do certain things in certain places - again - as long as it doesn't interfere with my health, security, or way of life. well, one of Bush's reasons for invading Iraq was that God told him it was morally right. Would you say that has not affected your life? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #52 July 28, 2004 Quote well, one of Bush's reasons for invading Iraq was that God told him it was morally right. Would you say that has not affected your life? Source?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #53 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuote well, one of Bush's reasons for invading Iraq was that God told him it was morally right. Would you say that has not affected your life? Source? YOU question GOD?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #54 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote well, one of Bush's reasons for invading Iraq was that God told him it was morally right. Would you say that has not affected your life? Source? YOU question GOD? EverydayI'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #55 July 28, 2004 QuoteI may disagree with and vote differently for the candidate based on his or her religion - but I am not going to go off and scream and yell and tell them that they cannot do certain things in certain places - again - as long as it doesn't interfere with my health, security, or way of life. I agree with this. I am more interested in the decisions they are making than whatever "force" is behind those decisions. But I still look forward to a day when people, including our political leaders, are driven by their own morals rather than by some sort of god. Of course, this is idealistically assuming that most people are capable of having their own good morals, which I'm not particularly convinced of at this time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #56 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteI may disagree with and vote differently for the candidate based on his or her religion - but I am not going to go off and scream and yell and tell them that they cannot do certain things in certain places - again - as long as it doesn't interfere with my health, security, or way of life. I agree with this. I am more interested in the decisions they are making than whatever "force" is behind those decisions. But I still look forward to a day when people, including our political leaders, are driven by their own morals rather than by some sort of god. Of course, this is idealistically assuming that most people are capable of having their own good morals, which I'm not particularly convinced of at this time. And assuming there is no higher power.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #57 July 28, 2004 QuoteAnd assuming there is no higher power. I guess I was lumping the "higher power" belief into my "some sort of god" statement. To me, it's the same thing... but that's just my personal belief. Of course, like everyone else, I may be right or I may be wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #58 July 28, 2004 QuoteI agree with this. I am more interested in the decisions they are making than whatever "force" is behind those decisions. But I still look forward to a day when people, including our political leaders, are driven by their own morals rather than by some sort of god. Of course, this is idealistically assuming that most people are capable of having their own good morals, which I'm not particularly convinced of at this time. I'm not religious, but that said, religious teachings can be a positive and good source for moral training. In my mind, that's likely the anthropological source of the invention (formalized religion). So stating that you'd like people to have morals without religion is just another way of saying you don't respect the diversity of their upbringing. But I really like your first sentence - actions matter, not the subjective junk. In general, it's the abuse of religion people would object to, the rest is just philosophical self congratulation. The righteous get some kind of reward, I don't believe the 'self-righteous' get anything. That goes for both the religious and the non-religious. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #59 July 28, 2004 QuoteI'm not religious, but that said, religious teachings can be a positive and good source for moral training. In my mind, that's likely the anthropological source of the invention (formalized religion). So stating that you'd like people to have morals without religion is just another way of saying you don't respect the diversity of their upbringing. I don't really have a problem with people being taught morals through religion, but I do question whether it actually works. A lot of the people who I consider to be immoral - do believe in God and probably learned their morals through religion. I also believe that is part of the reason "God" was invented - as a source for moral training. But what happens if people realize that God does not exist? Perhaps someday science will be able to give enough proof to convince the majority. If everyone is only being "good" because religion has taught them to, what will happen then? I would just like to think that human beings have the ability to think and reason, to instinctively know what is right and what is wrong... and to act accordingly simply because it feels better to do the right thing. But this is where I start questioning whether I am expecting too much of humans... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #60 July 28, 2004 Quote But what happens if people realize that God does not exist? Perhaps someday science will be able to give enough proof to convince the majority. That won't happen because science does not concern itself with faith, just with what can be observed, measured and tested. By definition, faith is excluded.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #61 July 28, 2004 QuoteBut what happens if people realize that God does not exist? Perhaps someday science will be able to give enough proof to convince the majority. It's impossible to prove a negative. You can only prove a positive. The rest is "I don't know for certain". - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #62 July 28, 2004 We are very identical in our thoughts in this area. I have higher expectations of people in general though. Try to look at people in general instead of specific examples that stand out and you'll see why. Kallend is right - faith by definition means belief in the "complete absense of proof". So that does preclude pure science from taking a stand on the issue either for or against. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #63 July 28, 2004 in science, its impossible to prove anything. you can only disprove. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #64 July 28, 2004 Quotein science, its impossible to prove anything. you can only disprove. So science == faith? - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #65 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteBut what happens if people realize that God does not exist? Perhaps someday science will be able to give enough proof to convince the majority. It's impossible to prove a negative. I can prove that a rational number equal to the square root of 2 does not exist.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #66 July 28, 2004 QuoteSource? Having trouble locating google? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #67 July 28, 2004 QuoteI can prove that a rational number equal to the square root of 2 does not exist. Math is sort of a different animal, because math is in essence purely theoretical and the proofs take place within the framework itself. It's self-defining. I can also "prove" through mathematical induction that I can build a skyscraper of infinite height. The "proof" is worthless from a parctical perspective, but it is a proof nonetheless. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #68 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteBut what happens if people realize that God does not exist? Perhaps someday science will be able to give enough proof to convince the majority. It's impossible to prove a negative. I can prove that a rational number equal to the square root of 2 does not exist. Only because you have faith in the basis of your mathematical theories. Everything can be questioned - everything ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #69 July 28, 2004 no. science does not equal faith. science is about disproof, which has nothing to do with faith. you can't prove something right scientifically. when you follow the scientific method, you attempt to disprove your hypothesis. if you can do so, you discard it and move on a bit wiser. if you cannot disprove it, the hypothesis stands to be challenged another day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #70 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteSource? Having trouble locating google? No the bar works just fine - but then i don't have to back up your arguments - however for me to view them as valid, you do.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #71 July 28, 2004 Quotewhen you follow the scientific method, you attempt to disprove your hypothesis. if you can do so, you discard it and move on a bit wiser. if you cannot disprove it, the hypothesis stands to be challenged another day We could go down a metaphysical path here... If I walk up to you with my dog, point to her and say "Lucy exists"... have I or have I not proven her existence? - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #72 July 28, 2004 QuoteNo the bar works just fine - but then i don't have to back up your arguments - however for me to view them as valid, you do. It has been fairly widely reported, both in media as well as on these forums. I really don't care if you chose to believe it, or chose to just disgard it without thinking about it. All your choice...... Some things people post on here, get me to read up on ctain view points and occasionally make me chance my mind. This is not a court of law, it is a discussion forum. Take from it whatever you want, even if that is being true to your name and hiding in your shell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #73 July 28, 2004 you have not. what you have done is supplied "Lucy exists" as the best possible hypothesis in light of the situation. I certainly would fail to prove she does not exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #74 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo the bar works just fine - but then i don't have to back up your arguments - however for me to view them as valid, you do. It has been fairly widely reported, both in media as well as on these forums. I really don't care if you chose to believe it, or chose to just disgard it without thinking about it. All your choice...... Some things people post on here, get me to read up on ctain view points and occasionally make me chance my mind. This is not a court of law, it is a discussion forum. Take from it whatever you want, even if that is being true to your name and hiding in your shell. All I want you to do is show the evidence that he SAID what you are claiming he did. I typed in your exact words and didn't come up with better than 75% hit. That in and of it's self leads me to believe that you would incorrectly quote him and say he said something that in fact he did not to attempt to prove your point.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #75 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteBut what happens if people realize that God does not exist? Perhaps someday science will be able to give enough proof to convince the majority. It's impossible to prove a negative. I can prove that a rational number equal to the square root of 2 does not exist. Only because you have faith in the basis of your mathematical theories. Everything can be questioned - everything Russell and Whitehead did a fairly good job of proving that 1+1 = 2 using formal logic. It only took some 300 pages of Principia Mathematica to do it, and it's more convincing than, say, the story of the creation in Genesis.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
