Semi Stowlesss bag problems?

[jeffrey27rj 0]

Hi All, just wanted to throw this out there to gather other opinions. On jump 124 for me last weekend I had my first cutaway. I was spinning in an uncontrolled 360 with my canopy out in front of me. It's a pulse 230 loaded at 1.1 so it's definitely a more conservative canopy. Upon retreiving it, both brakes were stowed and I'm pretty sure it wasn't a line over. A very experienced riggers best guess was that the semi stowlesss bag probably caused an out of sequence opening and twisted up some of the lines on one side which sent me into the 360's. He said if it happened again, to get a regular D bag. Has anyone else experienced this with the SS bag? Any thoughts or opinions?

*If you fail to plan, you plan to fail*
*It's not flair, it's flare*
*Please use "your" and "you're" responsibly*

[mjosparky 4]

I would look for something else. I put over over a 1000 jumps on this bag with out any problems.

Michael

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[gowlerk 2,198]

This is nothing more than an opinion, but you asked for just that. The malfunction was most likely a tension knot. They happen most often at a cascade where there is a little more bulk for a wrapped around line to grip. You can never tell afterward because cutting away releases the tension and the knot.

If it was a line over you would almost certainly find line burns on the canopy, probably on the topskin.

Is this more likely with a stowless bag? Maybe, I have no real answer to that one. I do know that lots of people like them and get good results, but I can also see a greater possibility of disorganized lines. Either way, stow you lines carefully and neatly.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[bodypilot90 0]

I don't think it's the d bag, I have a bunch of jumps and never happened to be.

[pchapman 279]

Was there another thread recently where some said a semi-stowless bag had caused problems?? Or maybe I'm thinking of a PD rep at the recent CSPA Symposium.

Usually semi-stowless bags are praised as they are generally good at letting the stows out with moderate and consistent friction, compared to too-loose or too tight elastics on a regular bag. And I love the semi-stowless bag I made years ago. But the details matter and sometimes the semi-stowless might not work out.

The PD rep, she was talking about how on the occasions where they've seen issues with semi-stowless bags, it seems more common with large canopies, or at high altitude. Although one can come up with differing and opposing theories from that, that may be suggesting that there are times where the lines aren't metered out nicely, where there is perhaps too little tension on the lines and they dump out unevenly. Who knows, that might contribute to a tension knot.

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi jeffrey,

Quote

Has anyone else experienced this with the SS bag?

Disclaimer: I make & sell semi-stowless bags.

I had a discussion with a customer just last week about problems with the semi-bags. My thinking is that these things have been around for a fair amount of time now ( and even longer in Europe ) and if there were inherent problems with them, it would have surfaced by now.

It does not seem to me that we are hearing about 'lots' of problems with these types of bags; in fact, most people, after having them for a while, seem to be very satisfied with them.

I've probably made a couple of hundred & only one customer said that he wanted his money back because he did not like it.

Jerry Baumchen

[theplummeter 15]

I switched to an Infinity Party Bag halfway through jumping a Stiletto 150 and then a Fusion 150 for a season. I had two spinning malfunction cutaways with the standard bag and nothing but beautiful openings since going semi-stowless.

I have since changed to a Curv and have only a semi-stowless bag, also with wonderful openings.

While I realize it's possible to have a spinning mal with any bag I think semi-stowless is less likely to create that situation.

[jeffrey27rj 0]

Thank you all for the thoughts. I typically always use packers because I hate packing (takes the fun out of skydiving for me) but it sounds like there isn't much of an issue with these bags and maybe something was wrong with the pack job. I've jumped at 7 different places in my short career and he was the fastest packer i've ever seen so maybe there was something to that. I'm just going to chalk this one up to "these things eventually happen" I appreciate all the replies!

*If you fail to plan, you plan to fail*
*It's not flair, it's flare*
*Please use "your" and "you're" responsibly*

[theplummeter 15]

If you have a Precision or Icarus canopy both of those manufacturers recommend psycho packing (some of their canopies) which is much easier in my opinion. PD does not recommend it.

If you can find someone who is knowledgeable to walk you through it you could always see how that pack job opens for you.

Good luck and blue skies!

[lyosha 50]

pchapman

Was there another thread recently where some said a semi-stowless bag had caused problems?? Or maybe I'm thinking of a PD rep at the recent CSPA Symposium.

Usually semi-stowless bags are praised as they are generally good at letting the stows out with moderate and consistent friction, compared to too-loose or too tight elastics on a regular bag. And I love the semi-stowless bag I made years ago. But the details matter and sometimes the semi-stowless might not work out.

The PD rep, she was talking about how on the occasions where they've seen issues with semi-stowless bags, it seems more common with large canopies, or at high altitude. Although one can come up with differing and opposing theories from that, that may be suggesting that there are times where the lines aren't metered out nicely, where there is perhaps too little tension on the lines and they dump out unevenly. Who knows, that might contribute to a tension knot.

Probably rigging innovations / chutingstar semi stowless. If you route the lines wrong they turn your canopy into a steamer.

Yes, you have to make a packing error. But a ton of cutaways and even a recent near fatality from a world class base jumper (in a base environment, but similar packing error) say these kinds of oversights happen with some frequency.

[EnricoPalazzo 1]

I admit I'm not the neatest when it comes to packing.
My Crossfire did give me some line twists now and then. Since I switched to a semi-stowless bag (on a Curv) around 300 jumps ago, I did have exactly one full twist after opening.
No complaints at all, very nice, consistent openings with this type of d-bag.

[johnmatrix 21]

I've put about 500 jumps on my UPT semi-stowless bag and love it.

Exactly what sort of semi-stowless bag is it?
Does it have tuck tabs or magnets?

I've been told of problems with magnets, as after they open to let lines out they can also snap shut back on some of the lines whilst they are still deploying.

Anyway, whatever type of bag, packing error or not, shit just happens sometimes.

[mark 107]

johnmatrix

I've been told of problems with magnets, as after they open to let lines out they can also snap shut back on some of the lines whilst they are still deploying.

An RI magnetic bag's magnets do not open to let the lines out, just as the tuck tabs on other semi-stowless bags do not open to let the lines out.

Mark

[ufk22 33]

My first thought was also "tension knot".
You say you hate packing and almost never pack yourself.
Do you ever run the steering lines to remove line twists?
This is not something a packer will do.
After a chop due to tension knots about 15 years ago, I talked to PD and was told most are caused by line twists in steering lines. Not usually an issue with old, thick lines, but common with microline.
I try to straighten the steering lines after the last jump of the day.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[jeffrey27rj 0]

Great advice, on the steering lines. Thanks for that. I usually don't do that.

For the other person that was asking, it's a tuck tab model.

*If you fail to plan, you plan to fail*
*It's not flair, it's flare*
*Please use "your" and "you're" responsibly*

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Mark,

Quote

just as the tuck tabs on other semi-stowless bags do not open to let the lines out.

That is about 99% correct. My best friend probably has more jumps on a NoStoBag than anyone. He occasionally finds a tuck-tab out when picking up his gear. It has never caused him a problem.

Jerry Baumchen

[johnmatrix 21]

mark

***I've been told of problems with magnets, as after they open to let lines out they can also snap shut back on some of the lines whilst they are still deploying.

An RI magnetic bag's magnets do not open to let the lines out, just as the tuck tabs on other semi-stowless bags do not open to let the lines out.

Mark

OK, thanks. I'm not familiar with really any of the other models, I just know that there's a few different types out there.

[lyosha 50]

mark

***I've been told of problems with magnets, as after they open to let lines out they can also snap shut back on some of the lines whilst they are still deploying.

An RI magnetic bag's magnets do not open to let the lines out, just as the tuck tabs on other semi-stowless bags do not open to let the lines out.

Mark

The problem with RI's magnet bag comes in if some or all of the lines are misrouted and end up not going out the same slot as they came in. With a tuck tab angled down, the tab pops and worst case you get line dump. With the magnets going up, whatever lines are misrouted are held in place by the bag.

Yes, this is a packing error. But it's one that apparently happens with some frequency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDpCSxErk_E

[erdnarob 1]

10 days ago, I have attended a parachute symposium at Trenton Ontario. On a seminar on parachute care and facts given by PD representatives, we were told that a semi stowless Dbag wasn't recommended for big parachute and high elevation landing zone. You jump a Pulse 230 which can be considered as a big parachute. You should contact PD on that subject. I jump a Katana 170 using a semi stowless Dbag including a line poach held closed with magnets. After several hundred jumps on it I have had no problem.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mjosparky 4]

erdnarob

10 days ago, I have attended a parachute symposium at Trenton Ontario. On a seminar on parachute care and facts given by PD representatives, we were told that a semi stowless Dbag wasn't recommended for big parachute and high elevation landing zone. You jump a Pulse 230 which can be considered as a big parachute. You should contact PD on that subject. I jump a Katana 170 using a semi stowless Dbag including a line poach held closed with magnets. After several hundred jumps on it I have had no problem.

Did they give a reason for this?

Michael

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Michael,

Quote

Did they give a reason for this?

A few years ago I talked to them about this. At that time they told me that it was because they had no experience with semi-stowless bags. So I offered to build them one for free so they could get some experience. They declined my offer.

Jerry Baumchen

[mjosparky 4]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Michael,

Quote

Did they give a reason for this?

A few years ago I talked to them about this. At that time they told me that it was because they had no experience with semi-stowless bags. So I offered to build them one for free so they could get some experience. They declined my offer.

Jerry Baumchen

Do you think this might another myth becoming fact? I jumped one I made for over a 1000 jumps with out a problem, and that was with a 245 Sharpchuter.

Michael

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[BrianM 1]

mjosparky

Do you think this might another myth becoming fact? I jumped one I made for over a 1000 jumps with out a problem, and that was with a 245 Sharpchuter.

... not to mention all the larger reserves (even tandem reserves!) in semistowless bags...

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[pchapman 279]

mjosparky

Do you think this might another myth becoming fact?

Who knows. It's just a trend some people thought they saw.

'Erdnarob' and I are reporting (posts #19 and 5) what the PD reps said from their experience. It wasn't that big canopies don't work, but on the occasions where semi stowless bags have had problems, there seemed to be a trend for larger canopies or higher elevations to be involved more than they expected. Presumable PD canopies are usually involved, as PD owners would be the ones asking PD about any opening issues.

The reps didn't try to provide any statement as to the cause.