Make up your mind, you GUN BAN HOPLOPHOBES!

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

no, don't get confused - it's simple. The arguement could go thus - don't deny those who require guns as tools for their jobs (law enforcement, close protection bodyguards etc). Some people are more likely to be targeted by nuts than you and i (celebs/politicans). They will require heightened security.

So according to you, only cops and military should have guns. Uh huh. Why is that? You do know that, at least here in the US, cops have a higher crime rate than people who carry concealed, right?

Also, you think that being tageted by a nut requires being famous? Why should people who can afford 24/7 bodyguards be the only ones who can protect themselves.

If you want to play probabilities, no one in the US is likely to be a victim (overall likelihood of crime victimization is around 4%).

If you realize a gun can be necessary to protect oneself (as you stated via acceptance of bodyguard carry), why deny it someone who wouldn't make as many headlines?

Everyone from the Clinton Justice Department to unaffiliated researchers have found between 1.25 and 3.5 million Defensive Guns Uses each year here in the states. Couple that with the fact that active physical resistance with a gun lead to the lowest probability of being hurt in a crime, and you must ask, would you rather there be another two million crimes each year?

Quote

Gun control does not necessarily equate to a blanket ban on guns.

Show me one anti-gun politician who is not pushing for a blanket ban. To counter your argument, I inform you thus:

Quote

“If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done it.” – Senator Dianne Feinstein, CBS-TV's 60 Minutes, February 5, 1995

Quote

And if you can find me an environmental protestor, picketing a major oil company driving a Humvee, i will put on the monkey suit and dance down the street while playing the banjo.

OK, so maybe even the eco-freaks have more sense than anti-gun logic. I'll buy that.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Great! Lets take all the cop guns off the street, replace them with baseball bats and sulfuric acid! The cops will love it, I'm sure!

So why do people think cops deserve more rights and priviledges than any other citizen?

Once upon a time, people knew that cops had, rightfully so, fewer rights than any citizen they met while on duty.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Andy

UK crime rates increased at a faster rate after their gun bans were introduced (thus failing to show any positive effect of gun control).

Here in the US, the overall crime rate is dropping, and it is dropping faster in states that recognize the right to self defense (thereby showing positive effects of 'liberal' gun laws)

Also, guns are far from unregulated. What other objects do you have to be approved by two federal agencies before you purchase them? What other object has so many law and regulations concerning it? What other object do you need government permission to carry outside your house is more than forty of fifty states? etc ad nauseum.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 10]

Im waiting for him to read the link I sent him and comment about it...

He didn't know about Kennesaw, the increase in crime in GB and Austrailia after the gun laws but commented about it anyway.

I am interested if he actually reads the link, and what he has to say about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

I think the ONLY condition I'd put on gun ownership is that if they've ALREADY been tried and convicted of attacking someone with a deadly weapon, they've proven themselves untrustworthy with a gun and therefore probably shouldn't have one.

Ah, the voice of reason.

You're actually more 'liberal' with your best case than I am. I would deny any violent felony convict, weapon or no, at the very least. I might stay with every felony being cause for denail of rights.
(however, I don't agree that a misdimeanor shouting and shoving match 45 years ago should affect rights now, as can be the case)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Have a little faith in Andy, even if your faith in people is failing. While I'm sure he can stand up for himself, he seems many, many steps up from your average...what were the terms Jeffrey used yesterday?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[soilman 0]

Ron says

Quote

don't let the mentally ill have guns.

Please let me keep my gun. I no hurt anyone.

Seriously, the "mentally ill" have a lower rate of arrest for crime, violent or non violent, than the general population. For every "sociopath" there are thousand of people suffering from debilitating anxiety, depression, or obsessive-compulsive disorder, who are not malicious or harmful. In fact, those with obsessive-compulsive disorder are probably more likely to be "nutty" about gun safety -- take gun safety to an extreme.

____________________________________
Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[Kennedy 0]

In terms of denying a right, I'd define mentally ill as having been adjudicated unfit for trial, having been forcibly committed to a mental health ward, being unable to care for oneself, etc, until a physician with some form of accoutability says otherwise.

If we go from the gun banners' interpretation, everyone from Abe Lincoln to Dr. MLK would've been classified as "mentally ill."

ps - oh yeah, I'd add anyone who was found not guilty by reason of mental illness or defect in a criminal trial. I bet that defense would be used a lot less then.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 10]

Quote

Have a little faith in Andy

Oh, I have faith. I would like him to read the supplied link and comment again. He is not stupid, to be honest I am surprized he didn't do some research before he replied.

I REALLY want to hear his opinion AFTER he does some research.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 30]

Quote

UK crime rates increased at a faster rate after their gun bans were introduced (thus failing to show any positive effect of gun control).

Since owning a banned gun and getting cought with it will be a new crime that didnt exist before, you have no argument comapring crime rates before and after the ban without detailed numbers. None of these numbers have made it to these forum AFAIK, so your aggument is baseless.

Remster

[Ron 10]

Quote

Since owning a banned gun and getting cought with it will be a new crime that didnt exist before, you have no argument comapring crime rates before and after the ban without detailed numbers. None of these numbers have made it to these forum AFAIK, so your aggument is baseless.

Here ya go....

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1178534#1178534

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 30]

Quote

Here ya go....

lol... from your article:

Quote

Government statistics released this month showed a year-on-year gun crime increase of 35 percent.

Incredible! So, since making handguns illegal, cgun crime (which by all understandings must include owning a handgun) had gone up! wow!

This one is good too...

Quote

According to statistics released by British police last year, a Londoner is about six times more likely to be mugged than a New Yorker.

Since when did NYC allow concealed guns? I mean, mugging could only be dettered if your victim had one on him, right?

So, until you can distill the number of crimes that are realted to woning a handgun from thses numbers:

Quote

Fewer than 100 people were murdered using guns in Britain in the 12 months leading to April of last year, according to recently released government statistics, but nearly 10,000 firearms crimes were reported overall, a one-year increase of more than 2,500.

your argument is baseless.

Remster

[Ron 10]

Quote

your argument is baseless

I guess you just glazed over Kennesaw Ga like all other lefties do.

Quote

"every head of household to maintain a firearm together with ammunition." After passage of the law, the burglary rate in Kennesaw declined and even today, the City has the lowest crime rate in Cobb County.

You seem to look right over this as well:

Quote

Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized.

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime.

These numbers are about being a victim of violent crime, having a gun is not in those numbers.

Look keep your head in the sand, its ok really.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Maybe you should learn some before you comment?

Primary sources, please.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Primary sources, please.

Like you said in another thread

"Do your homework"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 30]

Quote

I guess you just glazed over Kennesaw Ga like all other lefties do.

I utterly fail to understand what Kennesaw has to do with crime figures in England....

Remster

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Like you said in another thread

"Do your homework"

There's the rub. I tried.

Honestly, I can't find anything that backs up your statement, other than articles by some particularly biased organizations.

Which is silly anyways, because the real issue is violent crime, not crime in general. Most importantly, that datum needs to be normalized from pretty much everything else going on in that country, like economic changes - a task that's virtually impossible.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I guess you just glazed over Kennesaw Ga like all other lefties do.

Funny thing.....In Canada we slightly restricted the ownership of firearms and made people register their firearms in the previous year. The program was/is a complete boondoggle, but guess what, violent crime went down by (off the top of my head) 6% last year.

By the logic portrayed by the pro-gun people on this forum, I guess I would have to say that it is obviously working.

[Ron 10]

Quote

There's the rub. I tried.

Honestly, I can't find anything that backs up your statement, other than articles by some particularly biased organizations.

Which is silly anyways, because the real issue is violent crime, not crime in general. Most importantly, that datum needs to be normalized from pretty much everything else going on in that country, like economic changes - a task that's virtually impossible.

You see you asked for sources...I give you sources...Then you ask for more sources...Then you will ask for more sources.

I realize I could give you the phone number of the guy that did the research, his dogs name and a copy of his DNA...

And all you would say is something along these lines:

Quote

other than articles by some particularly biased organizations.

And if you can't win you will say something along these lines:

Quote

Which is silly anyways, because the real issue is violent crime, not crime in general

Which one artical had in it...

But then you will say something along:

Quote

Most importantly, that datum needs to be normalized from pretty much everything else going on in that country, like economic changes - a task that's virtually impossible.

So like I said you will not listen.

Ya know Kennedy...I TRIED to have faith in Andy...but again I am proven correct that he only wants to hear evidence form his side only, from sources only he approves of, and only if it tells him what he already "knows"

Just like the 100 jump wonder that asks for advice, but only listen to the advice he wants to hear.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

I utterly fail to understand what Kennesaw has to do with crime figures in England....

Then its clear you didn't read the artical.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 30]

Quote

Then its clear you didn't read the artical.

Maybe what I need is remedial english understanding... I read the article, looked at the links you provided. I see a lot of facts picked out of a lot of others, mixing in Oz and Uk when it fits.

When you can show me (and us) gun crime increase in England that doesnt include ownership as a crime, job well done. I cant see that number anywhere myself.

Remster

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

you limited the choices pretty much - How about adding:
1. The USA has a gun problem, even if no one else seems to want to admit it
2. If there were no handguns, then no one could be killed by a handgun
3. Cars are registered...why not guns?
4. I support some sort of gun control to help keep unnecessary guns off the streets.
5. I support gun ownership, but only if the owner is properly trained in its use, for both hunting and for self defense.

Nope! My poll, my rules! T.S.!

Um, just because we could state the tautology, "No handguns, no one killed by handguns," doesn't mean we wouldn't still be dealing with criminal killings, now does it?

No household chemicals, no child deaths by ingestion of household chemicals.

No swimming pools, no child deaths by drowing.

Are we really willing to get rid of things that can kill, just to save the deaths, with no regard for what uses they have? Would you stop short of getting rid of COPS' handguns? Because, you know, I've read numerous cases (yes, more than two) of cops' kids taking their guns and killing either themselves or others. But you'd argue that cops have their guns so that they can protect themselves and others.

Well, so do WE.

BTW, what is an "unnecessary gun"?

Blue skies,
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

the term hoplophobe seems to be oxymoronic - who in their right mind wouldn't (or shouldn't) have an irrational fear of something that they have no knowledge or understaning of, of something that can kill you and everyone around you in mere seconds, particularly if you pick it up and hold it incorrectly (i.e. putting a finger on the trigger and pulling).

How is that fear deemed "irrational"? To me, it's irrational people wouldn't have an inbuilt fear of guns if they know nothing about them.

Nac not directing this at you BTW, just tagged it onto your post, as i found the definition of the word to be stupid.

I will go on record that it is 100% always bad to have an "irrational" ANYTHING. It shows that you have allowed the smart part of your brain to freeze and stop thinking, and let raw fear do the job for you. You seem to be... well... advocating irrationality! How bizarre!

By the same token, whuffos have no idea how to use a parachute correctly, right? Should they have an irrational fear of parachutes and skydiving?

What about a person who walks near a swimming pool and doesn't know how to swim? He should have an "irrational fear" of it -- or should he maybe have instead a "healthy respect for the potential danger"?

You condition the "inbuilt fear" to be for those who don't know anything about guns. Well, how about we address that by teaching people -- kids and adults alike -- so that they don't have to fear guns irrationally, and so that if they encounter them, they'll know how to handle them safely? Got something against education?

Blue skies,
-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Kennedy 0]

Are you incapable of understanding that crime must be addressed in terms of trends, rahter than simple percentages from year to year?

What has your crime rate been doing over the last ten years?
How does requireing citiznes to give their name to a government bureacracy hope to affect violent crime?
Are you talking about violent crime, involving guns?
Are you talking about violent crime overall, which could be affected by guns?
Or are you talking about the crime rate overall? If so, what does it say to you that the US has a far lower crime rate than the UK?

Really though, did the registry deny anyone new the right to own firearms, or just create a useless government expenditure?
(unless of course you see one step closer to confiscation as a worthy cause)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[livendive 8]

Quote

Oooh, so far, 100% pro-gun and zero hypocrites. Amazing. No one wants to admit they support restrictions on everyone but themselves, I guess.

I have not bothered to look up the word "hoplophobes", so perhaps I wasn't supposed to answer this poll. In any case, I'm strongly in favor of our right to bear arms. I believe there are already too many restrictions in place.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)