Michael Moore lied - using faked newspaper front page

[juanesky 0]

The direct connection is quite clear. GWB said exactly that any country, govt, etc that would aid in any way these ignorant and hateful people (I got a better term for them) would be in peril of military confrontation with the US. No more bs will be taken.

Everyone in the country at the time agreed.

I still remember how powerless and lost we all felt that day (even our foreign friends). And thought how hard a time this is to face such a reality. For once we stopped beIng a bi-partisan society, and families, friends, groups got closer, we started reaching out and seeking to help each other. How easy do we forget.


GWB in the meantime, was explicit, he named Iraq, NK, Afghanistan, Iran et all the rest, as the"axis of evil". Everyone seemed to agree at the time.

He simply kept his promise. Didn't he? Look at some of the positive consequences, Pakistan helping out, Lybia opening its borders and releasing the culprits of lockerbie, Jordan and Syria getting in line.....etc.

Another positive aspect has been to show us who are our real allies.

If you think that he was not a threat, then I don't know if we are either looking at different things at the same time, or you just would have preferred to: 1) Give SH the benefit of the doubt (unequivocally proven to be a demented liar, assassin, an overall evil man), 2 )Assume GWB was just lying in a complex conspiracy theory to benefit himself and his close associates (in a very open information society as opposed to SH).
3) Hope that the current president is doing what he can to protect us, he is after all in office because he was elected, and pledged an oath in accordance to these duties.

I chose the latter, thank you.

Bad consequences, there are a lot, mainly war. War is never good, nor is the killing of any human being.

As a catholic I don't find anything more abhorrent than the need to kill a fellow human being in order to protect (as in defend) my family. It could have been them in any of the explosions world wide that continue to take place due to those animals. If any of them would have died, I would never called them "martyrs", they would have been innocent victims. They did what they did and hence have convinced me without no doubt (outside any political affiliation influence) that they will do anything possible albeit their own deaths, to destroy life as I know it.

You may well ask, the difference between a US soldier and a terrorist, there are many. Few of these are: We do not seek to kill innocents, nor shield with them. We also want to come back, alive, in one piece to fulfill the rest of our planned and not so planned lives. We are not seeking martyrdom. We think that this is a time to make a stand in a very difficult time. We want to seek those 72 virgins while we have blood pumping in our veins....(an other places to).


Blue skies and safe swoops.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[quade 4]

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Everyone in the country at the time agreed.

Only because we didn't know any better.

We, the general population of this country, you and I, can ONLY take the word of our government on some things. We do not have the capacity to determine which countries do and do not have nuclear, biological and chemical weapons programs. We -must- rely on the information our government gives us in these matters.

When trusted politicians tells us that a country poses an imminent threat to us, that they mean to use these weapons against us as other countries have recently used cunning then, yes, I would say that most people will rally behind them and follow them on their crusade.

However, when it is later proven that virtually all of the information shown to us was a fabrication, either by those out to "trick" us or our own incompetence . . . we should rightfully lose faith in these leaders.

I fully supported the Administrations efforts in Afganistan and was behind it in its march to wipe out terrorism, however their rush into Iraq has turned out to be folly.

I tangentally care that -billions- of our tax dollars have been wasted on a war that need not have been fought.

I tangentally care that -billions- of our tax dollars are going to what may be single-source, no-bid, contracts.

What I -do- care about is we've killed thousands of people needlessly. We've created a hate in their survivors as great as our own for those that plotted against us and attacked us on September 11, 2001. We have recruited more enemies agaisnt us. We have given terrorists a real reason to strike us again.

This Administration has left us in a position that is much less safe than it was before we marched into Iraq.

Either they lied to us or were grossly incompetent.

Either way they have to go.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 2,027]

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We don't all have to agree on everything.

Big difference in agreeing with everything someone says and someone who cries/whines/moans/bitches/complains about our country and leader every chance they get.

WHY shouldn't the people feel bad about a leader who lies to them, as this one has (and the last one, and the one before that...)? The complaints are justified.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tunaplanet 0]

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however their rush into Iraq has turned out to be folly.

Folly? Hmmmm. I think it's a great idea to take away a leader of a country who was preparing to attack us through terrorist acts as our intel stated and Russian intel later confirmed. It was a pre-emptive strike to ensure they never get a chance to.

The more I hear you speak, Quade, about how unsafe you want this country to be and the more I see how blindly you root for Kerry to become our leader.....the more I see I'm making the right choice in my vote.

Forty-two

[mnealtx 0]

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However, when it is later proven that virtually all of the information shown to us was a fabrication, either by those out to "trick" us or our own incompetence . . . we should rightfully lose faith in these leaders.

Either they lied to us or were grossly incompetent.

Either way they have to go.

So now the President has to be omniscient? Hmm...wasn't it the Dems that were shooting down President Reagan about Nancy's interest in astrology???

I REALLY wish you people would make up your minds....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

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What matters to me is that this shitbag is capable of swaying votes.

It seems that for you, all is OK because what matters most to you is that his cause is just!

wow - that's pretty harsh, afterall we DO have free speech and even if I am lying, I am allowed to speak and if I can sway votes, then so be it.

TV Evangellists, politicians and worse do it all the time to further ther own agendas.

GWB has lied to us, either intentionally or not about the WMD's, the war, and he is MOST CERTAINLY using it to sway votes. Does that make him a shitbag too?

Personally I think so, and to a much greater degree, given that Michael Moore has not caused the death of anyone, but GWB has caused the deaths of thousands. Which is a big part of his arguement as well. He has a soapbox and he can use it. GWB has been using his at my expense for 3+ years now. I will GLADLY pay to listen to Michael Moore

TK

[CrazyIvan 0]

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Michael Moore has not caused the death of anyone,

Yeah, but "alienating" someone is even worse, especially "cry-babies".

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[tkhayes 348]

I find it hilarious that everyone thinks Michael Moore 'lied' in this case. He twisted it - not cool, but not really a lie.

The headline was an actual headline from the paper - albeit from an inside letter, and the date was off by two weeks, which appears to have little relevance to the whole story or context in which it was used.

So he took a headline and made it into a 'banner' to be used elsewhere. The information was real, not faked,

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

GWB took fake information and tried to make it real.

TK

For fun, search Google on
Michael Moore Lies - 573,000 hits
George Bush Lies - 968,000 hits

I though tthat was funny

[Jimbo 0]

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He twisted it - not cool, but not really a lie.

Democrats twist: Not cool, but not really a lie
Republicans twist: Not cool, definitely a lie.

Now it all makes sense.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jib 0]

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wow - that's pretty harsh, afterall we DO have free speech and even if I am lying, I am allowed to speak and if I can sway votes, then so be it.

It's fine to lie, fine to cheat...
You wonder why society's so screwed up.
Actually, you don't have the right to lie -- perjury, fraud.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[jimbarry 0]

To the group.

Did MM change anybody's minds? From the looks of posts and threads on this forum, he didn't.

He pushed Dems more further away from Bush (notice I didn't say 'towards Kerry') by feeding them what they wanted to hear. Lots of truths, but some lies, some clever omissions, some false connections..

He either pushed Reps closer to Bush or it seems in most cases he had no effect on them other than to hate him more for dividing the country more, or admire his ability to preach to his own choir by making them a stronger choir, 5 months before an election.

So what was the net effect of his "lies"? Probably nothing, right?

And can everyone at least agree (probably not) that while there was plenty of evidence that wmd still existed in Iraq, to ignore that mountain itself would have put Bush derelict of duty?

And more importantly it wasn't up to Bush to proved SH had wmd, it was up to SH to prove he got rid of them? And he used all his power and bribes to avoid doing just that.

To say that SH never proved he got rid of his wmd was not a lie. There was no false pretense in that.

It's getting tiring to hear "Bush said there were wmd and turns out there wasn't, therefore he misled us into war."

[eb66to77 0]

They would have attacked even if Ralph Nader had won the election. (edit-I would not have wanted him in charge of the response, he said to O'Reilly he would have gone after OBL with small teams of commandos/etc. - basically admitting that the Taliban would still control Afghanistan).

I think it very important to acknowledge this.

[tkhayes 348]

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It's fine to lie, fine to cheat...
You wonder why society's so screwed up.
Actually, you don't have the right to lie -- perjury, fraud

Well, i always thought that GWB should be brought up on such charges - perhaps why he does nto want to testify in front of 9/11 commissions, and if he does, asks for it not to be sworn?

Never said it was right or ethical - did say it is a matter of free speech that happens all the time.

If MM is so wrong, then we have a civil court system that will resolve that right?
TK

[Jib 0]

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If MM is so wrong, then we have a civil court system that will resolve that right?

Public figures are not as protected from defamatory comments are ordinary people are. That's why MM has a team of lawyers.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[newsstand 0]

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Everyone in the country at the time agreed.

I didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq. I understood the reasons for invading Afghanistan but believe we screwed that up too.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[tkhayes 348]

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The direct connection is quite clear. GWB said exactly that any country, govt, etc that would aid in any way these ignorant and hateful people (I got a better term for them) would be in peril of military confrontation with the US. No more bs will be taken.

Everyone in the country at the time agreed.

And I did not agree either, and a large part of the country did not agree.

However, I am sure that millions of people were in favor of the war after Colin Powell presented his WMD case in fron tof the world at the UN, and even I was partly convinced that WMD's exist, and while still not for a war, I at least could better understand the need for it.

Now we know that all of that was a lie. Fabrications and false information.

A statement that everyone agreed is SO wrong - I expect if his presentation was more along the truth about WMD's, that there would have been little or no support for the war.

I do not appreciate being lied to by my government, even if I cannot vote.

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2 )Assume GWB was just lying in a complex conspiracy theory to benefit himself and his close associates (in a very open information society as opposed to SH).

hmmm, I think that WAS the case Michael Moore was trying to make - Carlyle, Halliburton, the Saudi's, all the wealthy businessmen that need/want more power, more money, more of whatever it is that they want. Do they support the war? You bet they do.

Complex conspiracy? Maybe not that complex at all.

TK

[tunaplanet 0]

Psssst. F911 was a lie. Don't be naive.

Forty-two

[tkhayes 348]

read my post #31, GWB lied and has caused the deaths of thousands of people. There is a difference.

Some of the film is somewhat misleading - I am sure that some of it is not true. I am just as sure that a lot of it IS in fact, true.

ALL of what GWB said about WMD's and the reasons to go to war is a complete lie.

[Jib 0]

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read my post #31, GWB lied and has caused the deaths of thousands of people. There is a difference.

Some of the film is somewhat misleading - I am sure that some of it is not true. I am just as sure that a lot of it IS in fact, true.

ALL of what GWB said about WMD's and the reasons to go to war is a complete lie.

Hindsight is 20/20 my friend.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Ron 10]

And with all your ramble...you still didn't answer this question:

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No, I want to hear what you have to say about this 'revalation'.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334