Woman Shoots Armed Robber After Beating, Charged With Murder

[Kennedy 0]

Female security guard grabbed by hair, beaten with knuckle duster (brass knuckles, right?) for money bag, suffers fractured skull, eye socket, nose, and hand, and possible brain damage, manages to shoot attacker.

Attacker's grandfather calls her a bitch.

Australia charges her with murder.

Interesting story from a land where self defense is outlawed.
From The Herald Sun
(fair warning, it's aussie english )

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Lindsey 0]

Don't think for a second that it doesn't happen right here in the USA. I did some work in the women's prison here in Arkansas, and it's amazing how many are there for "crimes" commited secondary to defending themselves against an abusive partner. One woman I knew had her skull fractured by her husband's baseball bat, but since her knife was "more deadly" she went to prison.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Zennie 0]

Speaking technically from a legal perspective, when she shot him she was not acting in self defense. He was in the car.

That said, charging her with murder is absolutely sickening. It's pretty clear she was beaten so senseless she didn't seem to know what she was doing.

At the very WORST, she's guilty of manslaughter. And that would be pushing it.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Kennedy 0]

I don't know about you, but if some guy weighing 150-250% of my body weight smacks me with a bat for no reason, then keeps coming, I'd feel justified in shooting him.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Lindsey 0]

Yes....I would too. But at least in MY state, you're likely to be incarcerated for it....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Zennie 0]

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I don't know about you, but if some guy weighing 150-250% of my body weight smacks me with a bat for no reason, then keeps coming, I'd feel justified in shooting him.

And who's to say a knife is "more deadly"? Given the choice between a knife and a bat... give me the bat.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Kennedy 0]

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Speaking technically from a legal perspective, when she shot him she was not acting in self defense. He was in the car.

Depends. He had dragged her towrds the car earlier, right? Was the car pointed at her? Did he say he'd be back? etc etc

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That said, charging her with murder is absolutely sickening. It's pretty clear she was beaten so senseless she didn't seem to know what she was doing.

That says it right there. Pretty GD sad.


edit: good point on the knife vs bat

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Jib 0]

Hmm, was he going to drive away or run her over?

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Lindsey 0]

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edit: good point on the knife vs bat

It is a good POINT, but nonetheless, people spend years in prison when that point is lost on a jury that tends to blame women for their abusive situations.... I wish I knew the state law better so that I could speak more knowledgably....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[newsstand 0]

While I agree that as portrayed the whole thing is horrible why are we believing the details of this story when we know the details of so many other news stories are wrong? There is potentially a whole lot of time between him running for the car and her shooting him. NOT DEFENDING ANYONE HERE just pointing out what seems like a break in the story. The guy was clearly a punk.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[soilman 0]

??? Aren't you allowed to do "whateer is necessary" to prevent someone from robbing you or the company you are working for? He was trying to get away with stolen money. She is allowed to do shoot him, to kill, to prevent that. If she was in imminent danger of losing consciousness due to severe injuries he inflicted, shooting to kill would be about the only way to prevent him from getting away.

Near where I live, about a year or 3 ago, an enraged man banged on his neigbor's door, and started breaking the door down, or breaking through it, with his fists. The homeowner shot him, through the door, and he stopped breaking in, and died a little while later. No charges were pressed against the homeowner.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[Zennie 0]

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Hmm, was he going to drive away or run her over?

If I were her lawyer I'd make that point. What's to say he wasn't going to finish her off before making his getaway?

I'm not defending the murder charge in the slightest. Just presenting the legal points.

I would argue self-defense on that basis, and, alternatively, that she was so badly beaten and disoriented that she couldn't possibly form criminal intent.

Oh... and I'd show all sorts of nice, graphic pictures of her beaten face to the jury. Heh.

Seriously, I hope this gets tossed out.

Oh and I love this... "They're saying he's a rotten dangerous criminal and he's not. He's lovable"

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Kennedy 0]

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"whatever is necessary"

Using deadly force to protect property is rarely legal, and just as rarely is it morally defensible. I believe you are incorrect there.

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Near where I live, about a year or 2 ago, an enraged man banged on his neigbor's door, and started breaking the door down with his fists. The homeowner shot him, through the door. No charges were pressed against him.

Now here is a very different case. A man physically breaking down your door poses a very real threat to you whil eoyu are in your house, and as it is your house, you have every right to be there.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Zennie 0]

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Aren't you allowed to do "whateer is necessary" to prevent someone from robbing you or the company you are working for?

It depends on where you live.

The general rule is that deadly force must be commensurate with the threat. So if a guy is running off with your television set, you can't use deadly force to recover it... unless you're in Texas and he just ran out of your house with it.

In the example of the man breaking in, deadly force is justified because he is an imminent threat. Plus the general rule is that you can use any force necessary within your home (i.e. the "Castle Rule" in legal parlance).

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Kennedy 0]

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Oh and I love this... "They're saying he's a rotten dangerous criminal and he's not. He's lovable"

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Yeah, he's only a convicted felon who beat a woman to within an inch of her life while committing armed robbery. How bad could he be?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Lindsey 0]

It just makes me think about what I use to hear quite a lot...."if you're not careful you'll should all over yourself...." Basically, what seems logical in these situations isn't always logical. Sometimes (often, imho) the legal system does NOT protect victims of violent crime. Unfortunate.

lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[soilman 0]

I don't claim to know what the legalities are. But it seems to me that loss of property can be life-threatening. If someone were to steal a significant portion of the food I preserved and froze, from my garden, to live on during the winter -- my life and health would be threatened. I would want it to be legal to kill them. On the other hand, if they walked off with a single ear of corn, or a single tomatoe, I wouldn't want to make a big deal about it.

Same thing if they threatened to vandalize my tractor, or vandalize my heating system. I could easily get very cold, and sick, and even die, if the heating system was damaged so as to make it not work. Perhaps others may view this as only "property." I think my life depends on these things.

____________________________________
Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[Zennie 0]

Just by way of FYI, here are the Texas rules on the use of force to protect personal property...

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
~ (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
~ ~ (1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
~ ~ (2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
~ ~ (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
~ ~ (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
~ ~ ~ (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
~ ~ ~ (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
~ ~ (3) he reasonably believes that:
~ ~ ~ (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
~ ~ ~ (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[PhreeZone 20]

>others may view this as only "property." I think my life depends on these things.

If you actually catch someone in the act of doing one of those things and shoot him you would probally be found guilty of manslaughter or murder. None of those are an immediate threat to you. That is the key in a legal sense I believe. Someone throwing eggs at your house that happens to break a window is not threatening your life, but someone breaking into your house with a knife is threatening it. Stealling garden crops is not threatening your life since you can go buy groceries, and same with the heater.

I was told that the best way to determine if you can use lethal force is to see if the person would continue to commit the crime that the odds of you getting through it uninjured are slim to none. A neighborhood kid throwing eggs at you is not life threatening, but if the same kid was throwing sticks of dynomite at you then its life threatening

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[soilman 0]

" Stealling garden crops is not threatening your life since you can go buy groceries, "

No, if my garden crops are stolen, I can not buy groceries, as I don't have enough money to buy groceries.

I won't be able to have food to eat again, until a few months into the next growing season. If someone steals a freezer full of food, in September, I won't be able to replace it, with anything, until sometime about 10 months later, next July.

____________________________________
Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[mikkey 0]

The case is not clear-cut and the media is playing far to great a role in it.

1) Firstly she is actually not charged yet. Problem is that she is hiding from police and has not even given a statement yet – but appears on a current affair show (for money) and talks about it. The police wants to force her to cooperate and might have to charge her in order to be able to do so.
2) The robbers family is appearing on a rival networks current affair show (also for money) and is painting him as an innocent victim. So these 2 networks are directly interfering in the case taking sides and distorting the investigation and making it difficult to have a fair trial if the security guard is put in trial. Typical media….
3) The reason she might be charged with murder is that some witnesses stated that she got up after being bashed and walked up to the robbers car and shot him in the head through the window from close range. I think if that is the case she would be in trouble in most countries. You are not allowed to “execute” robbers…
4) Even if charged and convicted she might get away with a very lenient sentence. She was bleeding and badly “smashed”. In Australia it is possible to get convicted for murder and get a very lenient sentence if there are a lot of mitigating circumstances. We had cases where women killed their abusive and violent husbands and got away with a suspended sentence.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Kennedy 0]

It's all a matter of state law and personal circumstances.

If soil depends on his freezer to live through the winter, anyone threatening that property is in effect threatening him.

And like was posted, in Texas you can shoot them even if they are fleeing your home and you are now technically "safe."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Guest]

Noteworthy on all counts.

Yet, this is someone who wasn't doing anything, and was attacked.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[talon2 0]

If the arsehole/asshole had lived we would hear some crap excuse like,"Iwas cleaning my knuckle dusters and they went off accidently" Do that shit to me or mine, or for that fact ,anyone.........,Reap what you .........
Mike

[Rebecca 0]

Ya know... sad to say, but some folks just need killin'.

I'm assuming she was legally carrying that gun in her capacity as a guard - armed guard - to protect herself and the money she was carrying. If the courts don't like that she shot someone, she should only have been authorized to carry a baton or tazer or some other non-deadly weapon. (I know you can kill someone with those things, but you have to intend to - not so with a gun)

Lovable my ass... that kid had it coming.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?