Is Marriage Natural?

[PhillyKev 0]

See, I don't believe in lifetime monogamous commitment. But I also don't believe in cheating or open, serious relationships. What I believe in is honesty. If I'm with someone in a serious relationship, I'm with them, I don't, never had, and wouldn't cheat. However, I may decide that I no longer want to be with them for whatever reason. Or I may decide for awhile that I don't want a serious relatiionship and just date around. But I make sure I don't lead someone on or have them think that the situation is other than what it is.

[Zenister 0]

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And on this subject, have you ever read "Time Enough For Love" by Robert Heinlein? It was recommended to me a few years ago by a special friend (are you reading this? ;-), and is now one of my favorite books... Probably the closest thing I've ever read on how I think relationships should be.

Heinlein explores the concept of 'family marriage' (not a new concept, but one that has be repressed and rejected by the prevailing religious dogma primarily christians...) throughout the majority of his novels, one of the things science fiction does is examine social issues somewhat 'outside' the norm..

I'd also recommend "the Moon is a harsh Mistress" and "Friday" for the way they illustrate some of the other issues involved in this type of relationship... "to Sail beyond the Sunset" is also good..drags a bit on occasion but has a lot of internal monologues that discuss it..


ps. Will you marry me?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[happythoughts 0]

Men understand the basic committment rules.

If they want no-committment sex, they are going to go farther down the food chain. One-nighters are usually not that great on quality. His g/f is the best he is going to do.

If women just want a quickie with no committment, they can get a surprisingly good choice - better looking than the current b/f in almost all cases.

Guys realize that their g/f is going to do a lot better than them on money too. A richer guy can afford to take the girl off for a nicer weekend than they can afford.

The guy choices will suck, the girls choices will rock.
Eventually, he will lose.

I know of a few open relationships that worked (very few). Generally, it is all BS, the girl is looking for something better and the b/f is there until it comes along.

[Shotgun 1]

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Yet oddly, cheating and (now) penitent husbands/wives are more accepted than people with open relationships. It's almost as if people prefer the deception.

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say - that it seems people prefer the deception. I have never been able to understand that.

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Surprisingly, this has been the attitude of most men who I have met throughout my life.

Not so suprising. That's quite a threat to most people - to have an SO that isn't "yours" and may decide they like someone else.

I agree with that too. It is usually not a "lack of desire to sleep with other women" that keeps them from agreeing to an open relationship.

[livendive 8]

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>female choice was listed as having had an impact on the evolution of
>male genitalia, i.e. those with genitalia that women prefer are more likely
>to reproduce.

Sadly, it has only been recently that women have been able to refuse sex by the time genitals make their appearance. So I would tend to disagree.

Well we haven't always been a clothed species, right?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Zenister 0]

That is the problem with most 'open relationships'. A lack of commitment, it isn’t about who you sleep with, it is about who you support, who you care for and who you go home to. Sex is a simple physical act relationships require much more energy.

in a working open relationship different 'needs' are being fulfilled by different people, there is no one person who is 'everything', but that doesn’t mean that one person is not 'most' important.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kelel01 1]

Oh, man, you guys have got me thinking all sorts of stuff now. This is a very intriguing line of thinking, so please continue . . .

Kelly

[happythoughts 0]

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It is usually not a "lack of desire to sleep with other women" that keeps them from agreeing to an open relationship

Perspective too. It depends on where you are in life too.

A 20yo hottie with 50 guys hitting on her is all about dating. At 29, when all the 29yo guys are after the new 20yo girls and the phone stops ringing, then it's "Why don't these guys want to commit?"

A 25yo guy with a hot 25yo g/f isn't going to do better.
When he's 35, he may want to revisit the roaming.
His 35yo wife, with 2 kids, feels a little panic.

Who has the insecurity? Depends on where you are in life.

[Shotgun 1]

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Generally, it is all BS, the girl is looking for something better and the b/f is there until it comes along.

Perhaps that is what you've seen, but that is definitely not what I am referring to when I talk about wanting an open relationship.

Unfortunately, I think it is close to impossible to have the kind of relationship that I am thinking of in our society today. I am talking about a serious, committed relationship where either party is allowed to date (have sex with) other people, and where both parties are completely honest about it. One of the things that makes this kind of relationship so difficult is that most people do not accept it. So... what I have found is that even if you are lucky enough to find one like-minded person to have this kind of relationship with... chances are, that the other people who you want to date will not understand what kind of relationship you have and will either want nothing to do with you or they will end up getting hurt.

[Shotgun 1]

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See, I don't believe in lifetime monogamous commitment. But I also don't believe in cheating or open, serious relationships. What I believe in is honesty. If I'm with someone in a serious relationship, I'm with them, I don't, never had, and wouldn't cheat. However, I may decide that I no longer want to be with them for whatever reason. Or I may decide for awhile that I don't want a serious relatiionship and just date around. But I make sure I don't lead someone on or have them think that the situation is other than what it is.

I like this kind of attitude. To me, honesty is such an important thing - whether it's an open relationship or a non-open relationship (or whatever).

[kelel01 1]

How do open relationships compare to swinging? Any thoughts on the differences? Pros and cons of each?

[Shotgun 1]

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Heinlein explores the concept of 'family marriage' (not a new concept, but one that has be repressed and rejected by the prevailing religious dogma primarily christians...)

Yes... and I have always suspected that religion, especially Christianity, has played a huge role in the "social conditioning" that has people finding deception more acceptable than open relationships. (Though I don't really understand why... Isn't lying as much of a sin as adultery is???)

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I'd also recommend "the Moon is a harsh Mistress" and "Friday" for the way they illustrate some of the other issues involved in this type of relationship... "to Sail beyond the Sunset" is also good..drags a bit on occasion but has a lot of internal monologues that discuss it..

Several of those have been on my list of things to read for some time now... but since I have little time for reading these days, it will be a while before I get to them. (Hmm, maybe I should be reading instead of PW'ing? )

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ps. Will you marry me?

Let me think about that... I'd have to get permission from my husband.

[Shotgun 1]

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How do open relationships compare to swinging? Any thoughts on the differences? Pros and cons of each?

I think "swinging" implies that you either have group sex with other couples/individuals or perhaps swap partners with other couples or something along those lines... I suppose that could be a part of an open relationship if you're into that sort of thing...

But I think being in an open relationship doesn't necessarily mean you're into "swinging"... it might just mean that you occasionally go on a date with (or sleep with) someone else without your partner around (but your partner does know about it). It doesn't have to imply that you're into anything kinky.

I guess the pros (of both) would include more freedom, maybe more honesty in the relationship (because you don't have to pretend that you're never attracted to anyone else - though it IS possible to have an honest monogamous relationship where you admit to your partner when you're attracted to someone else but you don't act on it). Cons (also for both) would be an increased chance of AIDS or other STD's (of course, that is also a problem in dishonest "monogamous" relationships - probably more so because you are not aware that your partner is sleeping with someone else), and the possiblitly of jealousy (which, again, can be a problem in any relationship).

[PhillyKev 0]

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How do open relationships compare to swinging? Any thoughts on the differences? Pros and cons of each?

AFter you vote me into office, I'll take you to this club. It's only a few blocks from my house. All your questions will be answered

[kelel01 1]

Aaaaaaaaaand . . . So, I'm gonna start printing up "PhillyKev for Pres" posters and bumper stickers tomorrow.

Kelly

[Shotgun 1]

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It is usually not a "lack of desire to sleep with other women" that keeps them from agreeing to an open relationship

Perspective too. It depends on where you are in life too.

A 20yo hottie with 50 guys hitting on her is all about dating. At 29, when all the 29yo guys are after the new 20yo girls and the phone stops ringing, then it's "Why don't these guys want to commit?"

A 25yo guy with a hot 25yo g/f isn't going to do better.
When he's 35, he may want to revisit the roaming.
His 35yo wife, with 2 kids, feels a little panic.

Who has the insecurity? Depends on where you are in life.

I think you and I are talking about two different things... It sounds like you are talking about people who are single but "dating". There is a big difference in that and in having a committed, yet "open" relationship. The kind of guys I tend to meet when I am single (and not looking for commitment) usually have no problem with me dating other people too.

[billvon 2,991]

> How do open relationships compare to swinging?

I've always thought of an open relationship as one where there are fewer hard-and-fast rules. There are still rules, they're just simpler (i.e. "talk to me before you do anything.") Swinging is a couple trying to have sex with a lot of people. They're different categories, really.

One of the reasons that open relationships can work better than normal ones is that you DO have to talk about what's OK and what isn't. When you don't do that, then you have to basically guess at what the other person is going to be OK with. Maybe sex isn't OK, but maybe the woman decides that it's not really cheating if it's just phone sex. (After all, the guy isn't even there!) Or maybe the guy decides that it's not really cheating if he sees this woman almost every night but it never goes further than petting. If you don't talk about it beforehand, the door is open to a lot of hurt feelings and resentment. Open relationships require a lot more communication, and that can help avoid those sorts of problems before they get started.

[billvon 2,991]

>Well we haven't always been a clothed species, right?

True, but we didn't lose our body hair until we started wearing clothes - and before we lost our fur, I'll bet the details were a lot harder to see.

[billvon 2,991]

>But I also don't believe in cheating or open, serious relationships. What I
>believe in is honesty.

I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I think the key in any relationship is good communication, and I think that in any relationship, whether it's called open or not, you can cheat by lying to your SO.

[Shotgun 1]

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> How do open relationships compare to swinging?

I've always thought of an open relationship as one where there are fewer hard-and-fast rules. There are still rules, they're just simpler (i.e. "talk to me before you do anything.") Swinging is a couple trying to have sex with a lot of people. They're different categories, really.

One of the reasons that open relationships can work better than normal ones is that you DO have to talk about what's OK and what isn't. When you don't do that, then you have to basically guess at what the other person is going to be OK with. Maybe sex isn't OK, but maybe the woman decides that it's not really cheating if it's just phone sex. (After all, the guy isn't even there!) Or maybe the guy decides that it's not really cheating if he sees this woman almost every night but it never goes further than petting. If you don't talk about it beforehand, the door is open to a lot of hurt feelings and resentment. Open relationships require a lot more communication, and that can help avoid those sorts of problems before they get started.

Thanks, Bill... I think that's an excellent explanation.

[RoadRash 0]

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I hate to say this...but there are a few species of primates that are monogamous...if for no other reason than they have to be in order to procreate...

If you are saying, "Is Marriage Natural for human beings?" then that is a different question and it depends on whether you are speaking culturally or not...Forms of marriage tend to be universal...I recommend you checking out some books on anthropology and specifically marriage rituals and culture and marriage...I have some books sitting right here that you would probably love!

~R+R...Marriage in some cultures has nothing to do with being monogamous...in others...it has everything to do with being monogamous...depends on the environment and how you view sex...

Marriage, as a social institution, exists primarily as a mechanism for the orderly transfer of property to descendants.


Michael

Yes, that is true, however, I believe that you have simplified it just a bit...



~R+R...Too much actually...but as I said in my previous post...I believe that you need to read up on the subject...

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Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...

[RoadRash 0]

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> How do open relationships compare to swinging?

I've always thought of an open relationship as one where there are fewer hard-and-fast rules. There are still rules, they're just simpler (i.e. "talk to me before you do anything.") Swinging is a couple trying to have sex with a lot of people. They're different categories, really.

One of the reasons that open relationships can work better than normal ones is that you DO have to talk about what's OK and what isn't. When you don't do that, then you have to basically guess at what the other person is going to be OK with. Maybe sex isn't OK, but maybe the woman decides that it's not really cheating if it's just phone sex. (After all, the guy isn't even there!) Or maybe the guy decides that it's not really cheating if he sees this woman almost every night but it never goes further than petting. If you don't talk about it beforehand, the door is open to a lot of hurt feelings and resentment. Open relationships require a lot more communication, and that can help avoid those sorts of problems before they get started.

Unfortunately, in the past two years...I have seen 3 open relationships end (2 in divorce)...

I have seen far too many "open relationships" to be the equivalent of "swingers," however, that is not how they wanted to be known and claimed to be "open"....

The two marriages that were considered "open relationships" had children involved and had FAR more problems due to the "open relationship" policy. Open communication may sound peachy keen until sex with multiple partners turns to jealousy, resentment, even hate. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen multiple times.

I do believe, however that some of the above relationships began to crumble for more reasons than just the lack of monogamy...or communication for that matter...but the straw that broke the camel's back was indeed the "openness" of the relationship...One of my good friend's parents from high school broke up and her mother said it was because her husband was spending too much time with a man in Germany...and not enough time with her.

So is this a type of marriage that is natural? Yes, and no...I believe that under certain cultural circumstances, it can work...and in fact does...however, in the Western culture...there are still too many problems associated with it...

In the end, it all depends on the individuals personalities involved...I believe that for some people, like college, marriage isn't for everyone...

My aunt and "uncle" have had a monogamous common law marriage for almost 20 years...

~R+R...I say, whatever works...But I am a traditionalist at heart...never thought I was either......

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Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...

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[crwmike 0]

[replyMarriage, as a social institution, exists primarily as a mechanism for the orderly transfer of property to descendants.


Michael

[Shotgun 1]

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Open communication may sound peachy keen until sex with multiple partners turns to jealousy, resentment, even hate.

I agree with this... but "open communication" doesn't mean that you are necessarily having sex with other people. (I think I made it sound that way in my posts, but Bill gave a much better explanation.) I think the most important thing (as Bill said) is the "talk to me *before* you do anything" - this involves having a great deal of respect for your partner and having very good communication between the two of you - if you don't have these two things then an open relationship will probably not work. (For that matter, I don't think a monogamous relationship will work very well without respect and communication either.)

I don't know... It's so hard to define a relationship! I see now that by saying I am in an open relationship, it conjures up visions of wild swinger parties (and for some, perhaps that is what it means), but for me it is more like... Being able to tell your S/O when you feel attracted to someone else, or that you have been flirting with someone over the Internet, etc. And if you have a desire to act on those feelings, being able to discuss that with your S/O and see how they feel. Sometimes this will still cause jealousy, but I would personally prefer to deal with the jealousy that comes from that situation than to deal with the kind of jealousy that comes from wondering if your S/O is attracted to someone else - the paranoia and delusions that evolve when there is a lack of communication in a relationship...

Anyhow, I'm certainly not saying this type of relationship is for everyone. For those who can actually make a monogamous relationship work, I think that is great... I just see so many "monogamous" relationships that are not really monogamous at all, and I have a hard time understanding why these people choose to be deceptive rather than just be honest about their desires. (But I know they are not ALL that way!)

And my "ideal relationship" that I've tried to describe is just that - "ideal"... So far I have never seen it working exactly the way I think it should. (Actually, I see very few things in life that are working exactly as I think they should! )

I am currently in what started out as an open relationship... though I don't know if I would still consider it to be. Neither of us see other people, but neither of us seem to have any desire to. But I think we do allow each other a lot more freedom than a lot of couples do... Anyhow, I don't want to talk too much about my relationship on a public forum.

[happythoughts 0]

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Anyhow, I don't want to talk too much about my relationship on a public forum.

I wouldn't worry about it unless this "internet" thing catches on.