peacefuljeffrey 0 #126 August 24, 2004 Quote"It would help in persuading us if there could be a SCRAP of success shown to have come from gun control in the U.K. before we stole the guns from American citizens." I've posted it before, and can't be assed posting it again for you, in summary guns banned, crime reduction of 5% last year where I live, look it up yourself. Ummm... overall in your country? The ban didn't take effect only in the area in which you live, dude. And who cares if the crime went down 5% locally if it went up 40% or more elsewhere? QuoteI've also posted ad nauseam that one can not take crime statistics and gun control policy for one society and apply them to another as a comparison. I think that's bogus. If that were true, then the study of criminology would have to be broken down into subsets like "British Criminology," "American Criminology," "Texan Criminology," "Floridian Criminology." There are certain human truths at work here, that don't know borders. One of them, a prime one, is that criminals do not fear a disarmed victim. QuoteAnd finally, as an advocate of change, even though you deny this in your post, it is up to those proposing the change to justify it. Relaxing gun control simply will not fly here. I don't have to justify the status quo and its just not a big issue for us. It is YOU who bear the burden of justifying the change -- you went from allowing gun ownership to forbidding it. NOW you want US to justify the change BACK to the way things WERE!!?! You're hysterically funny! Your "status quo" is a rising tide of violence, robbery, rape, theft, burglary and murder. If you contest this, I guess you have to take it up with the BBC, whose website posts numerous articles each week about violence rising in the U.K. Are they lying, or fictionalizing their news? Or are you being all pollyanna about how your gun control has solved all your problems and glossing over real world issues that face your society? --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #127 August 24, 2004 Quote>Take waiting periods that have the intent of enforcing a cooling off period. They don't work . . . A suspected Al Qaeda member was recently arrested in Oregon while waiting to pick up weapons at a gun shop. Personally, I am glad he could not walk out of the store with them. Arming Al Qaeda members is not the purpose of the second amendment. We have national instant check systems in place. Did he pass the check or not? How long was his "wait"? Are you talking disingenuously about a fifteen minute wait for the check results to come back, or are you legitimately talking about a five-day waiting period? (I'm not aware if Oregon has a multi-day wait at this point. Some states are still more restrictive than the national instant check.) And, um, not to be a nit-picker or anything, but where do you stand on the presumption of innocence, as protected by the Constitution? "Suspected Al Qaeda member," huh? Found guilty in a court of law of some crime? Or just "you don't like the idea of a guy of questionable allegiance being treated as innocent when he wants to buy a gun"? Because if he IS a convicted criminal, there are laws that dictate he CAN'T have a gun -- the waiting periods don't enter into it, since that can be checked instantly. And his being suspected of involvement with Al Qaeda, if never charged and proven, is utterly irrelevant to his right to buy a gun, only his status as a felon or non-felon is relevant. Nice try, though, with the blatant appeal to emotion and xenophobia. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #128 August 24, 2004 "And who cares if the crime went down 5% locally if it went up 40% or more elsewhere?" Like I said Google, crime is specifically reported in Scotland separate from England. Read what is actually reported, not what you want to see... Last year whilst crime rose in England and Wales it fell in Scotland, If you hadn't realised it yet, Scotland is where I live. "I think that's bogus. " You are of course entitled to your opinion, it is nevertheless a published and widely accepted statement, if it doesn't fit your agenda, tough shit.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #129 August 24, 2004 "Your "status quo" is a rising tide of violence, robbery, rape, theft, burglary and murder. If you contest this, I guess you have to take it up with the BBC," No sooner said than done. Specifically for the hard of listening, here is what the BBC has to say for my country... "Crime at lowest level in 25 years" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3808323.stm Is this bogus too?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #130 August 24, 2004 Quote>Take waiting periods that have the intent of enforcing a cooling off period. They don't work . . . A suspected Al Qaeda member was recently arrested in Oregon while waiting to pick up weapons at a gun shop. Personally, I am glad he could not walk out of the store with them. Arming Al Qaeda members is not the purpose of the second amendment. Was he an Arab? Was he buying ASSAULT (TM) WEAPONS of MASS DISTRUCTION? I included the phrase "intent of enforcing a cooling off period" for a reason, Bill. The reason for the 3 or 5 day check in the past was to give law enforcement time to do a background check. Now that can be done instantly, or in a few hours. As you know, California still has a 10 day wait (though it was 15 until instant check came) for the claimed reason of preventing mad people from buying guns to kill themselves or (more importantly) others. It was not implemented to catch terrorists, or even felons. We all know how many felons were convicted during the Clinton Adminstration for trying to buy a gun. BTW, does anyone know how many were prosecuted by the Bush Administration? I'd like to believe it has improved, but I fear only the guys with towels are being nabbed. BTW, Bill, any advice for women being stalked in California? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #131 August 24, 2004 QuoteQuote It's fair to ask: "prove that this law has value." Quote Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. Waiting periods were designed to reduce crime. It is easy to determine whether or not crime went down after a law was enacted. Disallowing carry in bars was not designed to reduce crime; it was designed to prevent crimes that might result from mixing newly enacted concealed carry laws with alcohol. There is no old data to compare current statistics to. Therefore, my point that you "can't prove a negative" was indeed very solid. Obviously, there is no way I can prove that these laws prevented crimes from happening, rather than the crimes simply not occurring because they never would have occurred without the laws. I was not using a "debating tactic," trying to win some sort of nonexistent match on a technicality; I was pointing out a very real flaw in your logic. --Douva Which logic of MINE are you point out a flaw in? I'm not a telepathic clone of PJ. I argued that to say a law cannot be justified is bullshit. If it can't, it shouldn't exist. if your specific example is about drunken gun crime in bars (I have not followed the entirety of this thread), it certainly is possible to do research. Before CCWs were permitted, gun play in bars was still illegal and highly reported. Sure, you don't know how many people are carrying before and after. You do know the overall crime rate of CCW holders. Bars aren't the only place they might get drunk and lose their tempers. Yet their criminal offense rate is close to zero. They know that they will lose their carry rights if they stray. Even with the bar ban in place, I think we can all safely conclude there are lots of violations. Are there lots of guns being pulled or used? Hardly any? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DB-UK 0 #132 August 24, 2004 I'm curious. Why do you feel the need to carry handguns - concealed or otherwise. Under what circumstances do you invisage using your weapon ? IMHO there should be no need for the general public to have or carry firearms in a civilised society. Hmmm although we are talking about America I suppose...... http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #133 August 24, 2004 QuoteBTW, Bill, any advice for women being stalked in California? They should submit to their stalkers, of course. Sheesh, I thought everybody knew that. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #134 August 24, 2004 QuoteI'm curious. Why do you feel the need to carry handguns - concealed or otherwise. Under what circumstances do you invisage using your weapon ? Uh, self defense? QuoteIMHO there should be no need for the general public to have or carry firearms in a civilised society. Let me know when you find a truely civilized society. On the other hand - if society is truely civilized why does it matter who is or isn't carrying a handgun? Or a rocket launcher, for that matter? QuoteHmmm although we are talking about America I suppose...... Uh huh. Because we all know that crime in Merry Ol' England is at an all-time low, right? Don't kid yourself. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DB-UK 0 #135 August 24, 2004 Self defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? Someone spilling your beer ? Hitting your car ? Maybe a fight in a bar ? Do you really need a gun to deal with those situations ? Or is it just that because you never know who else has a gun that they might pull you therefore feel the need to have one yourself ? Just in case ? Everywhere has crime. I'm sure London is comparable with many US cities in crime terms. Very few people would advocate us carrying guns for "defence" though. I know we aren't going to agree on this. I was just curious to know what insecurities were behind your desire to carry a gun. :-) http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #136 August 24, 2004 QuoteSelf defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? Someone spilling your beer ? Hitting your car ? Maybe a fight in a bar ? Do you really need a gun to deal with those situations ? A spilled beer, no reason for a gun. Someone hit my car, no reason for a gun A bar fight, depending on how things turned out there might be a real need for real self defense there. Don't you think? QuoteOr is it just that because you never know who else has a gun that they might pull you therefore feel the need to have one yourself ? Just in case ? You Brits are always fond of pointing out the rate of violent crime in the US, yet at the same time you suggest that there's no reason I might need to defend myself. Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory? Just a little? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #137 August 24, 2004 I'm curious. Why do you feel the need to carry handguns - concealed or otherwise. Under what circumstances do you invisage using your weapon ? IMHO there should be no need for the general public to have or carry firearms in a civilised society. Hmmm although we are talking about America I suppose...... ============================================To protect myself and those I care about from all the people that wish to harm me or my family. There are some sorry ass people out there nowadays. Society is civil. LOL.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #138 August 24, 2004 QuoteWell, by all means, what we really need is a half dozen armed drunks trying to stop him. Most CWP folks know MUCH better than to carry while drinking. I was at the DZ last week. A guy offered to buy me a beer. I told him no thanks. He asked why and I told him that I don't drink and drive nor drink and carry. Guys like me are not the problem...The problem is Billy Bob without the CWP that has his gun with him. I am all FOR the right to carry wherever you go."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #139 August 24, 2004 DB, there is a very important thing to consider here, The right to bear arms is enshrined in the US constitution. This right is dearly held and will not be surrendered lightly, regardless of whether or not the original considerations are still valid or not. "I know we aren't going to agree on this. " Welcome to Squeakers Corner.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #140 August 24, 2004 I need you to type slower, Dave, when you get all worked up I can barely understand you through that burr. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #141 August 24, 2004 Och its probably just the accent, gets em every time John.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #142 August 24, 2004 Hey, I've had a knife pulled on me before and a gun pulled on me before. The gun was an illegally carried weapon and was pulled on me on the highway by a guy in the truck next to me. Both instances I got VERY lucky, but wished I'd been armed. The same guy that pulled the gun on me followed my car (i was driving my VW at this time) for nearly 20 miles one day. He was wanting to harm me, it took me that long to get to the police station. What if I had gotten a flat? What if my car broke down? Should I have asked him not to harm me, offer him a hug? Since that's all I had. So now I'm armed and well trained. You try to seriously harm me, you try to harm my fiance, or if you're in my house...you're wrong and you'll know. DB-UK, I seriously doubt that you've ever been in situations where your life was honestly in peril due to another person. Where someone had a weapon drawn on you. When it happens (it will happen), I hope you're not a victim.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DB-UK 0 #143 August 24, 2004 Hello again Like I said before - I know we're not going to agree. I'm just interested in understanding your reasoning. So this bar fight, help me understand. Hypothetical situation - Someone spills your beer. Words are said. Voices are raised. Pushing and shoving. Scuffle..... swearing..... At what point do you pull your gun out ? At what point do you seriously consider actually pulling the trigger ? Enlighten me. http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #144 August 24, 2004 QuoteSelf defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? Someone spilling your beer ? Hitting your car ? Maybe a fight in a bar ? Do you really need a gun to deal with those situations ? Or is it just that because you never know who else has a gun that they might pull you therefore feel the need to have one yourself ? Just in case ? Everywhere has crime. I'm sure London is comparable with many US cities in crime terms. Very few people would advocate us carrying guns for "defence" though. I know we aren't going to agree on this. I was just curious to know what insecurities were behind your desire to carry a gun. :-) If you're suggesting that Americans regularly use their legally concealed weapons in retaliation against someone spilling their beer, hitting their car, or picking a bar fight, I suggest you start getting your cultural knowledge of the US from something other than the tele. If you're seriously wondering why we might want to carry weapons, I'm sure we can provide you with a few examples. For a start, how about checking out this post I made earlier in the thread. As many other people have pointed out in this thread, most of us have never needed to use a fire extinguisher, air bag, lifeboat, AAD, or concealed handgun, but they can all be really nice to have when you need them. --Douva PS. I think the main reason for our difference of opinion is cultural. You are raised to fear and loathe an object--guns. We are raised to accept guns as simply another tool with both positive and negative applications. I suppose if a child spent his whole life hearing nothing but horror stories about all the atrocities committed with butcher knives, he'd probably wonder why anyone would want to own one of those, either.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #145 August 24, 2004 QuoteHypothetical situation - Someone spills your beer. Words are said. Voices are raised. Pushing and shoving. Scuffle..... swearing..... At what point do you pull your gun out ? At what point do you seriously consider actually pulling the trigger ? Ridiculous. If I'm at a bar and someone spills my beer, I ask them to buy me a new one. If they don't, oh well. Who's raising voices, pushing and shoving people? If you are, and you're carrying a weapon, well then you escalated the situation and you're in the wrong, and almost everyone that has a CCL knows that. If I spill someone's beer, I appologize and offer to buy them a new one. If they attack me, I defend myself. If it's with their fists, I use mine. If they brake a bottle and come at me, the gun comes out. IF they don't stop I pull the trigger. Hypothetically, what would you do? Let them stick the bottle in you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DB-UK 0 #146 August 24, 2004 Hi Douva I don't claim to be an expert on US culture but I have visited many times. Generally skydiving trips. It doesn't make me an expert of course. Just correcting the pre conception. It's interesting that you group a concealed handgun with those other items - all of which are life saving devices. Now I'm sure you and many others here would say that's exactly what it is but non of the other things are actually designed to end someone elses life. Maybe it's just me but personally I feel very happy to walk the streets without carrying a gun. And I am very happy that it is illegal here for anyone else to be doing so. http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #147 August 24, 2004 QuoteSelf defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? How about defense against a rapist? Remember, gun control doesn't just take guns away from men. It also takes them away from women who are generally physically smaller and weaker, and could really use a way to equalize those disparities if attacked. Of course, in some places, they'll still be charged after shooting their assailant. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DB-UK 0 #148 August 24, 2004 Ok. Different points of view. I never expected you to all give up your guns just because I think it's a bad idea. So I'll move on now rather than engage in ultimately futile debate. Thanks for your comments. Take it easy. And try not to shoot anyone ;-) http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #149 August 24, 2004 QuoteOf course, in some places, they'll still be charged after shooting their assailant. At least they're alive and well enough to be charged. It beats the alternative, right? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #150 August 24, 2004 QuoteAnd I am very happy that it is illegal here for anyone else to be doing so. Wow, so you believe that since its illegal, no one on the street has a gun. I'm amazed.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 6 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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DB-UK 0 #132 August 24, 2004 I'm curious. Why do you feel the need to carry handguns - concealed or otherwise. Under what circumstances do you invisage using your weapon ? IMHO there should be no need for the general public to have or carry firearms in a civilised society. Hmmm although we are talking about America I suppose...... http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #133 August 24, 2004 QuoteBTW, Bill, any advice for women being stalked in California? They should submit to their stalkers, of course. Sheesh, I thought everybody knew that. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #134 August 24, 2004 QuoteI'm curious. Why do you feel the need to carry handguns - concealed or otherwise. Under what circumstances do you invisage using your weapon ? Uh, self defense? QuoteIMHO there should be no need for the general public to have or carry firearms in a civilised society. Let me know when you find a truely civilized society. On the other hand - if society is truely civilized why does it matter who is or isn't carrying a handgun? Or a rocket launcher, for that matter? QuoteHmmm although we are talking about America I suppose...... Uh huh. Because we all know that crime in Merry Ol' England is at an all-time low, right? Don't kid yourself. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DB-UK 0 #135 August 24, 2004 Self defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? Someone spilling your beer ? Hitting your car ? Maybe a fight in a bar ? Do you really need a gun to deal with those situations ? Or is it just that because you never know who else has a gun that they might pull you therefore feel the need to have one yourself ? Just in case ? Everywhere has crime. I'm sure London is comparable with many US cities in crime terms. Very few people would advocate us carrying guns for "defence" though. I know we aren't going to agree on this. I was just curious to know what insecurities were behind your desire to carry a gun. :-) http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #136 August 24, 2004 QuoteSelf defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? Someone spilling your beer ? Hitting your car ? Maybe a fight in a bar ? Do you really need a gun to deal with those situations ? A spilled beer, no reason for a gun. Someone hit my car, no reason for a gun A bar fight, depending on how things turned out there might be a real need for real self defense there. Don't you think? QuoteOr is it just that because you never know who else has a gun that they might pull you therefore feel the need to have one yourself ? Just in case ? You Brits are always fond of pointing out the rate of violent crime in the US, yet at the same time you suggest that there's no reason I might need to defend myself. Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory? Just a little? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #137 August 24, 2004 I'm curious. Why do you feel the need to carry handguns - concealed or otherwise. Under what circumstances do you invisage using your weapon ? IMHO there should be no need for the general public to have or carry firearms in a civilised society. Hmmm although we are talking about America I suppose...... ============================================To protect myself and those I care about from all the people that wish to harm me or my family. There are some sorry ass people out there nowadays. Society is civil. LOL.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #138 August 24, 2004 QuoteWell, by all means, what we really need is a half dozen armed drunks trying to stop him. Most CWP folks know MUCH better than to carry while drinking. I was at the DZ last week. A guy offered to buy me a beer. I told him no thanks. He asked why and I told him that I don't drink and drive nor drink and carry. Guys like me are not the problem...The problem is Billy Bob without the CWP that has his gun with him. I am all FOR the right to carry wherever you go."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #139 August 24, 2004 DB, there is a very important thing to consider here, The right to bear arms is enshrined in the US constitution. This right is dearly held and will not be surrendered lightly, regardless of whether or not the original considerations are still valid or not. "I know we aren't going to agree on this. " Welcome to Squeakers Corner.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #140 August 24, 2004 I need you to type slower, Dave, when you get all worked up I can barely understand you through that burr. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #141 August 24, 2004 Och its probably just the accent, gets em every time John.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #142 August 24, 2004 Hey, I've had a knife pulled on me before and a gun pulled on me before. The gun was an illegally carried weapon and was pulled on me on the highway by a guy in the truck next to me. Both instances I got VERY lucky, but wished I'd been armed. The same guy that pulled the gun on me followed my car (i was driving my VW at this time) for nearly 20 miles one day. He was wanting to harm me, it took me that long to get to the police station. What if I had gotten a flat? What if my car broke down? Should I have asked him not to harm me, offer him a hug? Since that's all I had. So now I'm armed and well trained. You try to seriously harm me, you try to harm my fiance, or if you're in my house...you're wrong and you'll know. DB-UK, I seriously doubt that you've ever been in situations where your life was honestly in peril due to another person. Where someone had a weapon drawn on you. When it happens (it will happen), I hope you're not a victim.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DB-UK 0 #143 August 24, 2004 Hello again Like I said before - I know we're not going to agree. I'm just interested in understanding your reasoning. So this bar fight, help me understand. Hypothetical situation - Someone spills your beer. Words are said. Voices are raised. Pushing and shoving. Scuffle..... swearing..... At what point do you pull your gun out ? At what point do you seriously consider actually pulling the trigger ? Enlighten me. http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #144 August 24, 2004 QuoteSelf defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? Someone spilling your beer ? Hitting your car ? Maybe a fight in a bar ? Do you really need a gun to deal with those situations ? Or is it just that because you never know who else has a gun that they might pull you therefore feel the need to have one yourself ? Just in case ? Everywhere has crime. I'm sure London is comparable with many US cities in crime terms. Very few people would advocate us carrying guns for "defence" though. I know we aren't going to agree on this. I was just curious to know what insecurities were behind your desire to carry a gun. :-) If you're suggesting that Americans regularly use their legally concealed weapons in retaliation against someone spilling their beer, hitting their car, or picking a bar fight, I suggest you start getting your cultural knowledge of the US from something other than the tele. If you're seriously wondering why we might want to carry weapons, I'm sure we can provide you with a few examples. For a start, how about checking out this post I made earlier in the thread. As many other people have pointed out in this thread, most of us have never needed to use a fire extinguisher, air bag, lifeboat, AAD, or concealed handgun, but they can all be really nice to have when you need them. --Douva PS. I think the main reason for our difference of opinion is cultural. You are raised to fear and loathe an object--guns. We are raised to accept guns as simply another tool with both positive and negative applications. I suppose if a child spent his whole life hearing nothing but horror stories about all the atrocities committed with butcher knives, he'd probably wonder why anyone would want to own one of those, either.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #145 August 24, 2004 QuoteHypothetical situation - Someone spills your beer. Words are said. Voices are raised. Pushing and shoving. Scuffle..... swearing..... At what point do you pull your gun out ? At what point do you seriously consider actually pulling the trigger ? Ridiculous. If I'm at a bar and someone spills my beer, I ask them to buy me a new one. If they don't, oh well. Who's raising voices, pushing and shoving people? If you are, and you're carrying a weapon, well then you escalated the situation and you're in the wrong, and almost everyone that has a CCL knows that. If I spill someone's beer, I appologize and offer to buy them a new one. If they attack me, I defend myself. If it's with their fists, I use mine. If they brake a bottle and come at me, the gun comes out. IF they don't stop I pull the trigger. Hypothetically, what would you do? Let them stick the bottle in you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DB-UK 0 #146 August 24, 2004 Hi Douva I don't claim to be an expert on US culture but I have visited many times. Generally skydiving trips. It doesn't make me an expert of course. Just correcting the pre conception. It's interesting that you group a concealed handgun with those other items - all of which are life saving devices. Now I'm sure you and many others here would say that's exactly what it is but non of the other things are actually designed to end someone elses life. Maybe it's just me but personally I feel very happy to walk the streets without carrying a gun. And I am very happy that it is illegal here for anyone else to be doing so. http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #147 August 24, 2004 QuoteSelf defence ? Well I'll take your point - to a point. Defence against what though ? How about defense against a rapist? Remember, gun control doesn't just take guns away from men. It also takes them away from women who are generally physically smaller and weaker, and could really use a way to equalize those disparities if attacked. Of course, in some places, they'll still be charged after shooting their assailant. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DB-UK 0 #148 August 24, 2004 Ok. Different points of view. I never expected you to all give up your guns just because I think it's a bad idea. So I'll move on now rather than engage in ultimately futile debate. Thanks for your comments. Take it easy. And try not to shoot anyone ;-) http://www.vne.info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #149 August 24, 2004 QuoteOf course, in some places, they'll still be charged after shooting their assailant. At least they're alive and well enough to be charged. It beats the alternative, right? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #150 August 24, 2004 QuoteAnd I am very happy that it is illegal here for anyone else to be doing so. Wow, so you believe that since its illegal, no one on the street has a gun. I'm amazed.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
