concealed firearms

[Jimbo 0]

Question for you DB-UK -

How did England survive all those years before guns were outlawed, or at least heavily regulated?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhillyKev 0]

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It's interesting that you group a concealed handgun with those other items - all of which are life saving devices. Now I'm sure you and many others here would say that's exactly what it is but non of the other things are actually designed to end someone elses life.

They are all designed to end the threat to your own life.


fire extinguisher - stops the fire

air bag - stops your head from going through the windshield

lifeboat - stops the water from drowning you

AAD - stops gravity from killing you

concealed handgun - stops the guy trying to kill you from killing you.

[DB-UK 0]

Dave - is that what I said ? Of course there are guns in circulation here. It's illegal though and that means that there are very few out there and that the chances of me encountering someone carrying one are slim.

Ooops - must not get dragged into this any further.

Enjoy your guns. Go shoot things. Whatever makes you happy.

Peace :-)

http://www.vne.info

[AggieDave 6]

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that means that there are very few out there and that the chances of me encountering someone carrying one are slim.

How sure are you of that? Have you seen any data or are you just making that up?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DB-UK 0]

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How sure are you of that? Have you seen any data or are you just making that up?

Pretty sure. There is no data - so I guess I'm making it up.

http://www.vne.info

[Jimbo 0]

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Dave - is that what I said ? Of course there are guns in circulation here. It's illegal though and that means that there are very few out there and that the chances of me encountering someone carrying one are slim.

I would rephrase that to say "the chances of me encountering a law abiding citizen carrying one are slim". I suspect, however, that the chances of you encountering a criminal with a gun are greater than they were before the gun ban went into effect.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[AggieDave 6]

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I suspect, however, that the chances of you encountering a criminal with a gun are greater than they were before the gun ban went into effect.

Since if they have a gun they're automatically a criminal.



What people choose to be their stance on gun-rights (be it pro-gun rights or against gun rights) is their own thing. I just want folks to get past the knee jerk reaction that all guns are bad and they should be banned. I want to see informed and educated people making educated decisions.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DB-UK 0]

So if an informed and educated group came to the conclusion that the public should not be allowed to have access to fireams would you hand yours over ? Just like that ?

http://www.vne.info

[AggieDave 6]

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So if an informed and educated group came to the conclusion that the public should not be allowed to have access to fireams would you hand yours over ? Just like that ?

Nope, since it would take an act of congress to make them illegal, that's not going to happen for a really long time. That'll pass about the same time that our freedom of speech gets revoked. At that point, it would be wise to keep your weapons, since we've just entered a new era in America of oppression. Since I don't see that happening any time soon...

The "educated group" that you'd be refering to is just a bleeding heart anti-constitutional rights group. I tend to ignore the opinions of groups trying to strip America of its constitutional rights.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Deuce 1]

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If I spill someone's bear, I appologize and offer to buy them a new one.

I thought it was your boss who bought all the bears.

[Ron 10]

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It's illegal though and that means that there are very few out there and that the chances of me encountering someone carrying one are slim.

Your chances of encountering a guy legally with a gun are slim. The chances of running into a guy with an illegal gun are higher.

Why must those that don't mind not having something insist that I not be allowed to have it either?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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Rep. Graf of Arizona (R) is proposing an ammendment to allow concealed firearms in bars. Talk about the Wild Wild West. Comments? Personally I'm all for it. Better yet open carry

Personally, I carry a gun any goddamn where I please (other than federal buildings). In states where there are proper concealed carry permits available, it is a felony to carry your gun into places where they are prohibited either by posted sign or local/state statute. Conversely, if you have no such permit and get caught it is only a misdemeanor offense. Reason? You have not been "trained" that it is wrong. I do not possess a current conceal carry permit for that reason (in NC anyway). The bottom line when it comes to guns is that if a person wants to carry a gun in a bar then that's what they are going to do, regardless of what the law says. I am totally for open carry and as a matter of fact it is legal in quite a few places. The knowledge that anyone you come into contact with might very well be armed is, in my opinion, a fantastic deterent to violent crime. I was raised on a farm in the country where guns (and gun safety) were a normal part of life. Everyone I know had a shotgun and a rifle on a rack in their back window. All grown men carried pistols in their vehicles and on their person when they felt the need and nobody thought anything of it. There was the same frequency of fist fights back then and even a few knifings, but very few instances of gun violence.

I have been many, many places in the world where you would have to be a complete idiot to travel without a firearm and have been right in the middle of one situation in Guatemala where the guns me and my teammates were carrying saved our lives and those of quite a few other motorists around us. It's incredibly cliche, but the old bumper sticker often seen on the back of redneck pickup trucks really rings true: "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns."

So, to reitterate, I am all for concealed carry permits including bars and restaurants, banks and other lending institutions, and most other buildings currently banning such carry. I promise you that you would not regret having me standing next to you (armed) if some fucking crackhead robber tried to roll you in a 7-11 convenience store.

Chuck

[Ron 10]

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The bottom line when it comes to guns is that if a person wants to carry a gun in a bar then that's what they are going to do, regardless of what the law says.

I remember on time in a bar both you and I have spent MANY hours in, the owner in the middle of a conversation said he would buy anyone that had a gun on him a drink.

He had to buy many drinks.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Douva 0]

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Dave - is that what I said ? Of course there are guns in circulation here. It's illegal though and that means that there are very few out there and that the chances of me encountering someone carrying one are slim.

Ooops - must not get dragged into this any further.

Enjoy your guns. Go shoot things. Whatever makes you happy.

Peace :-)

If the bad guys are going to carry anyway, shouldn't the good guys be allowed to carry in self defense? Allowing only the bad guys to be armed is not a prudent solution. What do you think would have happened to the U.S. if we'd decided in 1960 that nuclear weapons are a bad thing and completely disarmed? What few of us were left alive would be speaking Russian.

We had some rain at the DZ last Saturday, so a few of us spent about an hour out in a field shooting pistols. We had a lot of fun. If you ever make it to Skydive San Marcos near Austin, TX, on one of your skydiving trips to the U.S., we'll take you shooting. You might find it's actually quite enjoyable recreation.

--Douva

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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I promise you that you would not regret having me standing next to you (armed) if some fucking crackhead robber tried to roll you in a 7-11 convenience store.

Chuck

As a struggling filmmaker/screenwriter, I often try to hone my skills by writing short screenplays. Sometimes they come out pretty good, and sometimes I realize that I need more practice. Anyway, one of the screenplays I recently wrote was about a group of people trapped in a convenience store that is being robbed. It might be interesting for parties on both sides of this debate to read it (it takes about 10 minutes to read) and comment on how they would handle a similar situation, given their stance on concealed carry.

Here is a link to the screenplay:

CLICKY

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/setpa/MSG_WAV/Pit_stop.doc

--Douva

PS. Be forewarned that the screenplay contains quite a bit of cursing.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[JohnRich 4]

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"And who cares if the crime went down 5% locally if it went up 40% or more elsewhere?"

Like I said Google, crime is specifically reported in Scotland separate from England. Read what is actually reported, not what you want to see... Last year whilst crime rose in England and Wales it fell in Scotland, If you hadn't realised it yet, Scotland is where I live.

Check out this news story: Here

Quote: A surge in the number of firearm incidents in central Scotland is putting lives at risk, say police. Strathclyde Police has received 1,077 reports of firearm incidents since the start of this financial year, up from 837 for the same period last year.

So, gun crime in that area of Scotland is up a whopping 29% since last year!

What does that do to your little theory?

Guns were banned, and gun crime went up 29%.

You can't use your local statistics to make conclusions about the efficacy of a national gun ban.

[JohnRich 4]

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"Your "status quo" is a rising tide of violence, robbery, rape, theft, burglary and murder. If you contest this, I guess you have to take it up with the BBC,"

No sooner said than done.
Specifically for the hard of listening, here is what the BBC has to say for my country... "Crime at lowest level in 25 years"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3808323.stm
Is this bogus too?

That's irrelevant. We're talking about gun crime, and you're giving statistics for crime overall, including things like vandalism and "anti-social" crimes. Those have nothing to do with guns, and the gun ban couldn't possibly have accounted for the reduction in those types of crimes. Your using apple statistics to justify an orange ban.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Dave - is that what I said ? Of course there are guns in circulation here. It's illegal though and that means that there are very few out there and that the chances of me encountering someone carrying one are slim.

A few years back one of your London papers estimated over 3 million guns in circulation in the illegal gun trade.

One thing is clear - you have little to worry about from the Americans that are legally carrying. You may have a lot to worry about from the Americans and certainly the British that are illegally carrying.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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"Your "status quo" is a rising tide of violence, robbery, rape, theft, burglary and murder. If you contest this, I guess you have to take it up with the BBC,"

No sooner said than done.
Specifically for the hard of listening, here is what the BBC has to say for my country...
"Crime at lowest level in 25 years"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3808323.stm
Is this bogus too?

Okay, wonderful, in order to cite how well everything is going, you cite me an article whose tone, overall, is that despite a claimed "drop," there is still a noticeable crime problem! Did you manage to miss the fact that the general tenor of that article was NEGATIVE? It sure as hell wasn't a "Hey, cheer up, people, everything's getting better!" article.

And oh, it said "Scotland," not "U.K. overall," right? Levels are still up for England, I know that for sure.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Kennedy 0]

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Don't tell me you're so naive as to think this law was implemented to keep bars from being robbed. Its stated purpose is not to keep dangerous criminals from carrying in bars; it's stated purpose is to keep people from getting drunk while carrying. Therefore, in many cases, it is serving its stated purpose.

WRONG!!!

If they wanted to make getting drunk while carrying illegal, they would;ve passed a law against drinking while carrying. Instead, they passed a law against carrying in bars, which is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to being drunk.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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Kennedy, if the basic concept of "proving a negative" is too difficult for you to grasp, there is no point in me continuing to debate you.

Don't bother calling me an imbecile while showing yourself as one.

I'm not asking you to prove a negative, I'm asking you to prove a change. You have shown that deferentiating that concept from an unrelted one IS beyond you

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I'm curious. Why do you feel the need to carry handguns - concealed or otherwise. Under what circumstances do you invisage using your weapon ?

IMHO there should be no need for the general public to have or carry firearms in a civilised society.

Hmmm although we are talking about America I suppose......

This is such a pollyanna "wish-we-were-living-in-Utopia" post!

Of COURSE there SHOULD be no need for ANYONE to carry firearms in a civilized society. The problem arises from the fact that within "civilized society" are pockets of people who behave in a very UNcivilized manner, robbing, raping, and murdering. It is as protection against the possibility of being victimized by such a person that I carry a gun, as do many other people.

Who gives a shit about what civilized society SHOULD be? We are forced to deal with what it IS. And I don't live on Central Park West in a $2.5M apartment. I live in south Florida, and crime is not anything to scoff at here. I don't have to go far from where I live (in a decent neighborhood) to be in crack- and prostitute-central. Sometimes, although I avoid it when possible, I actually have to travel through bad areas. Sometimes people from the bad areas travel through here. It's far better to have the means of protection right here with me at all times, when it's no particular burden for me, than to have to rely on having the time and opportunity to get a coherent phone call through to 911, adequately inform the police of my location and what is happening, AND have them be able to meet me there before a criminal has had a chance to do the harm that he intends to do to me. Does that sound like a long shot? It should, because it IS.

Look, don't take digs at America as though we can't show that England is wallowing in its very own crime wave. The studies and reports are all over the place.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Kennedy 0]

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Actually, I seldom drink, so logically, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to carry in a bar. Perhaps everyone in this thread arguing for concealed carry in bars would be okay carrying in a bar. But the fact remains that alcohol undermines common sense, and every aspect of carrying a concealed weapon, from the logic behind it to its practical applications, hinges on common sense.

If you feel so strongly about drinking and carrying, pass a law against THAT. Drinking doesn't only happen in bars, and it doesn't always happen in bars.

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I would rather accept that I loose the right to carry when I enter an establishment dedicated to the loosening of inhibitions than see an increase in violence by concealed carry holders that would fuel the flames of the antigun lobby.

Someone post the quote about giving up liberty for temporary safety. Apparently Douva is the only person on the internet who hasn't seen it yet.

Why do you think violence would increase? Have we all not come to the conclusion that people can and do cary in bars?

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Do you support concealed carry in venues dedicate to the consumption of other drugs, or are you only concerned with alcohol consumption?

I support people being able to carry anywhere they are in control of themselves. I don't see how location would change that (unless you talk about a shrink's office).

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Most of your arguments make sense, but you continue to disregard the fact that the more alcohol you consume, the less sense has to do with anything.

And you continue to disregard that many people enjoy being in those places while NOT getting themselves out of control. You continue to support banning being in a location in the misguided thought that it will prevent an action. If you want to prevent an action, outlaw the action.

Is it really that difficult to unerstand?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[billvon 2,990]

>Don't bother calling me an imbecile while showing yourself as one.

aaaand . . . that's the end of another fine gun thread.