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TheAnvil

Iranian Pre-emptive strike?

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>This inane attempt to equate the actions of our troops in a wartime >environment with the mass murder of innocents is asinine.

I didn't. You asked for a comparison between mass graves, in hopes that Kallend would say "Gee, well, Saddam sure did fill a lot more of those mass graves than we did." As it turns out, the reports of Saddam's mass graves were overblown by about a factor of 80, and we've filled a lot of them.

Now, them's the facts. The _conclusion_ is what you're going on about. The decision to fill those graves did not come about because we hate Iraqis, but because we decided to invade - and there is a cost in human life to any invasion. If we claim that we could not possibly have known that 10,000 innocent people could die, then we are fools. That's what happens in war. It was our decision to go to war (on faulty premises) that caused them. We should do better next time, so we do not kill 10,000 people for a reason that does not exist.

>Even with all that in mind the moral equivalency you are trying to >infer is just sickening - you know better.

And your attempt to absolve the US from any responsibility whatsoever ("hey, it's not our fault - it's war!") is, I think, why much of the rest of the world sees us as they do. Imagine Saudi Arabia claiming the same thing about the 9/11 deaths - "Hey, you guys were at war with Al Qaeda, what did you expect? Why are you so pissed off about it?"

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>Your version of right might not be someone elses version of right.

Very true. However, when your beliefs are expressed by going to war and killing 10,000 innocent people, you are expected to have a pretty high standard for morality. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. It's not OK to say that Saddam tortured people so we can torture people; just because he had rape rooms does not make it OK to reopen them. We are better than that.



I can understand how you believe the above scenario is morally wrong. Now let's look at a different scenario. There are millions of people who believe performing, aiding, abedding and voting to keep abortion legal as to be morally wrong. Why do we believe it to be wrong? Because we believe life has already begun and there is a soul involved. Those deaths are in the 10's of millions. Yet, you have no problem with that continuing. I know, you don't believe as I do. But, who is right and who is wrong? In this case, one of us has to be right and the other has to be wrong. At the same time I believe us both to be good people.

My point is, I believe there are good people on both sides of the Iraqi war as there are good people on both sides of the abortion issue.



_________________________________________
Chris






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I'm not following the statistics as closely as others. Where is the "ten thousand innocents" claim coming from?

(please don't list 10,000 dead, because we both know that's not the same thing)
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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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>I'm not following the statistics as closely as others. Where is the
>"ten thousand innocents" claim coming from?

The list is here. It lists all civilian deaths due to fighting in Iraq since we invaded; if you want to add up only the innocent people the US killed directly (i.e. people not killed by Iraqi police, insurgents or by side effects of bombing like loss of power) it's around 7300.

>(please don't list 10,000 dead, because we both know that's not the
> same thing)

There are far more than that dead as a result of the war; the list does not include coalition soldiers or Iraqi military.

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Thanks, I was just asking for clarification of the number.

As long as it doesn't include people the military is trying to kill or capture, innocent is at least largely acceptable.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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I seek no absolution. The difference is that we regret the collateral damage inflicted upon civilians when we go to war. There is neither regret nor remorse from our opponents.
[:/]
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
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Unless of course they had moved it somewhere outside of Iraq.



That's what I would do. I have these super awesome WMD and this superior force is about to attack me. So, what do I do? Send them out of the country, let them invade and overthrow my gov't, kill my sons and put me in jail.

If he had them, he would have used them. Bottom line.

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Definitely disturbing. We opened the door for this with the whole pre-emptive strike to protect ourselves against a potential threat. Now they're claiming the same right.



Oh really. Is it your belief that the U.S. was the first country to invade another?[:/]



We made a declaration to the world that was our new policy and named the three main threats to us, one of which being Iran, then we invaded a country on theri border.

One of the international crimes that leaders of a nation can be charged with at the Hague is starting a war of aggression. So, we claim self defense before we pre-emptively invade to get around that. Iran is now doing the same.

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Yep, thats what I might try to do as well. The trick being, the rest of the world is watching you, and are actively looking for proof of the big things you are moving.......:S

I've seen better pictures of Nessie than pre liberation WMDs.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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If he had them, he would have used them. Bottom line.



Bottom Line - is that like Tuna's "PERIOD"? :P

Anyhow - I'm not so sure that he would have. He knew before the first bomb fell that the Coalition didn't have widespread support; had he used them it would have strengthened the resolve of pretty much the rest of the planet and he would have been crushed, absolutely. Ferrying them off to a sympathetic neighbor is, in my opinion, the best thing that he could have done.

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Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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Why would he give a rat's ass if there was a stong coalition or not. Hussein is not stupid. He knew when we invaded that we would overtake the country and overthrow him. Why wouldn't he use every weapon at his disposal to stop that from happening?



Because there is a big difference between being over thrown and being killed.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Why would he give a rat's ass if there was a stong coalition or not. Hussein is not stupid. He knew when we invaded that we would overtake the country and overthrow him. Why wouldn't he use every weapon at his disposal to stop that from happening?



Because there is a big difference between being over thrown and being killed.



Yeah, but he is getting both. And everybody knew from the begining that in his personal vendetta Bush wouldn´t let him live. Now it is a matter of see who kills him, old enemies from Irak or US contractors.

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I seek no absolution. The difference is that we regret the collateral damage inflicted upon civilians when we go to war. There is neither regret nor remorse from our opponents.
[:/]



We can all see American compassion in Abu Grahib :S

Look, if you want to make up all sort of moral justification for those murders and you believe them, more power to you. But the truth is that one innocent civilian is one too many. Don´t try to justify the massacre by claiming the U.S has the moral high ground because the U.S has not proved it yet.
Evey single soldier who has killed an inoccent civilian while not beeing directly threatened, is a criminal, period.

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Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

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Oh yes, the troops are all murderers.....


.... which is why, earlier this year before going into one of the towns, the Marines spent a week with loudspeakers telling the civilians in the town to leave before the Marines came in....:S

I guess some people are just going to see bad in things regardless of how much good they're shown...
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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You cannot just tell someone to leave his city because you are goping to bomb it. Those people have their pride, and besides, where are they going to go? The US is the one doing the attacking, so it is responsible for the death of the innocents. if the US cannot bomb from the air because too many civilians will die, then the US shouldn´t do it. Better to send more soldier that will be much better at discriminating good people than bad people than a "smart" bomb dropped from 35000 feet.

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Wasn't that what I just referenced, the Marines saying "Get out now, before we come in". ?

Ok, so someone is told "leave, or you will treated as a combatant". They don't leave, and we're wrong for treating them as an insurgent when they had a clear opportunity to leave?

Let's try a different example: You have a crowd of, lets say, 50 people. 10 of those people start shooting at coalition troops (whether they be U.S., British, what have you). The coalition troops fire back and some of the non-shooting people get hit.

Who's fault is it those people got hit?

Waiting on your reply.....
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I seek no absolution. The difference is that we regret the collateral damage inflicted upon civilians when we go to war. There is neither regret nor remorse from our opponents.



What a total bunch of BS.

Compare the 'regret' shown for the <3,000 victims of 9/11 compared to the 'regret' shown for the loss of >10,000 victims in Iraq.

There is sod-all regret shown by the US for the loss of Iraqis, and even if there were, so what? Does it make it ok to murder civvies so long as you regret it?

The fact that they are Arabs and they are not US citizens and they are a long way a way makes their lives less important by definition. So much less important that sacrificing 10,000 of them is an acceptable price to pay for 'liberating' the rest of them, or whatever the hell this weeks reason for the war is.

How many people have died at the hands of Al-Quaeda vs died at the hands of the US government in the last 5 years? Does that statistic tally with the idea that the US values life more than they do?

Like fuck it does.

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Yeah, but he is getting both.



Hey if the people he killed and tourtured want to kill SH for being a murderous asshole...Great. Are you saying he does not deserve it?

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And everybody knew from the begining that in his personal vendetta Bush wouldn´t let him live.



Opinion, you have no proof that Bush Jr has a vendetta...It just sounds cool to say that. If Bush Jr wanted SH dead...He would have never made it to court.

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Now it is a matter of see who kills him, old enemies from Irak or US contractors.



You forgot option 3. A governmant made of his old victims after a legal trial for crimes against humanity.

I vote for #3.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I don´t think we are talking about the same thing. In the situation that you are picturing, i would expect the troops to first shoot in the air to warn the civilian population, and then say with a speaker in their language to lay face down with their hands visible. Then do the shooting. The problem with that is that the U.S is trying to conquer a country with the minimum casualties possible (American casualties, that is) with complete disregard for Irak´s citizens, and the way i would do it wouldn´t be as safe for american troops as kill anything that moves.
That would be my opinion about your scenario, but mainly what i am talking about is the bombing. If you drop a 500 lb pounds bomb in a suburb full of people, civilians casualties are guaranteed. That is the bulk of casualties. I am sure that the scenario you were talking about have existed at some point. Probably several times, but the 10.000 casualties come for other reasons.

In other order of things, i have heard several times in this forums about that U.S policy, you break it, you fix it, when justifing Irak ocupation. Is people aware that the U.S broke Irak, and now it is still breaking some more?

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don´t think we are talking about the same thing. In the situation that you are picturing, i would expect the troops to first shoot in the air to warn the civilian population, and then say with a speaker in their language to lay face down with their hands visible. Then do the shooting.



You clearly have no idea about military operations.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Hey if the people he killed and tourtured want to kill SH for being a murderous asshole...Great. Are you saying he does not deserve it?



If people he order to kill and torture want to kill Bush for being a muderous asshole (or Cheney since he authorized the treatment at abu-grahib)... Great, are you saying he does not deserve it?

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Opinion, you have no proof that Bush Jr has a vendetta...


He is the man who tried to kill my daddy

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It just sounds cool to say that. If Bush Jr wanted SH dead...He would have never made it to court.


Or he could put a tribunal with people who really hated SH in a country with death penalty. That would fool a few into thinking that it is democracy.


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You forgot option 3. A governmant made of his old victims after a legal trial for crimes against humanity.

I vote for #3.



That trial would be as legal as if you choose PhillyKev and myself to defend Bush against impeachment or peacefullJefrey, Juanesky and yourself to defend kerry for whatever.

That tribunal is a joke.

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