Bush honorable at last

[kallend 2,106]

But it took John McCain to make him do the right thing.

www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=6082594

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 226]

Funny how trial lawyers couldn't do that huh?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[JohnRich 4]

Re: "promising to take legal action to stop political ads by outside groups"

I am highly disturbed by the talk from both camps aimed at restricting free political speech.

There is nothing honorable about such efforts. It violates the Constitution.

If they don't like what someone is saying about them, they can respond and counter the information.

However, banning free speech by anyone or any group must not happen.

[turtlespeed 226]

I believe that it violates parts of the laws governing political advertising.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I believe that it violates parts of the laws governing political advertising.

Political Advertising should always be protected by the 1st, though the Supreme Court approval of McCain-Feingold suggests otherwise.

I don't object to requirements that ad buyers be named, but this blanket ban is absurd.

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Re: "promising to take legal action to stop political ads by outside groups"

I am highly disturbed by the talk from both camps aimed at restricting free political speech.

There is nothing honorable about such efforts. It violates the Constitution.

If they don't like what someone is saying about them, they can respond and counter the information.

However, banning free speech by anyone or any group must not happen.

OK, since you insist:

BUSH DISHONORABLE, succumbs to pressure from GOP Senator to do the WRONG thing.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

Quote

the case could still bog down and have little impact before the Nov. 2 election.

how typical! I have to agree that they should be able to say pretty much what they want, after all if it we're SLANDER they could be sued for that... but they shouldn't be sued or quashed just for stirrin up sh&*t!

edited to add: and who is gonna pay the bill for this obvious waste of time?

[billvon 3,073]

>I am highly disturbed by the talk from both camps aimed at
> restricting free political speech.

I am too. Both the SBVFT and Moveon.org may be saying objectionable things, but I think (for the most part) it is their right to say them. The best answer to such attacks is for _other_ groups to answer them. The GOP has been doing that to the Moveon.org attacks, other Vietnam vets have been responding to the SBVFT attacks. That's as it should be, IMO. Everyone should have their say, and the voters should decide who to believe.

Coming out for "campaign reform" is a popular thing for politicians to do nowadays. But I think that any law that prevents people from speaking freely is dangerous. Laws that prevent candidates from getting massive contributions from specific organizations - OK. But laws that prevent independent groups from speaking their mind - I think we have to be very careful doing that.

[Kennedy 0]

When do you think Kerry will "do the right thing" and ask MoveOn, ACT,
et al to shut up and butt out?

edit: and when do you think he'll do the other "right thing," and fire all the people working both for him and for the 527s?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[mnealtx 0]

Yeah, just like he said that all the 527's are taking advantage of the loophole....

... too bad Kerry isn't coming out against Moveon.org, huh?

But I'm sure he will, once the polls tell him it's not popular anymore...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Ron 10]

Yeah and Kerry will be honorable when he comes out against Moveon.org, Moore and the media group.

But I don't expect that anytime soon. He only has a problem with SBVFT...Since they have his number.

Kerry is the low life...He supports 527's till they hit him, then he cries about them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rushmc 23]

Quote

But it took John McCain to make him do the right thing.

www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=6082594

You just keep trying I and I will keep enjoying.

The RNC and the Bush Admin went to the FEC about the 527's nearly a year ago. He did that without McCain.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Yeah, just like he said that all the 527's are taking advantage of the loophole....

... too bad Kerry isn't coming out against Moveon.org, huh?

But I'm sure he will, once the polls tell him it's not popular anymore...

Is Moveon.org a 527?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sducoach 0]

Get real. Let's check the balance in dollars, air time, etc.

Like it or not this represents free speach at it's greatest and now Bush is going to cave in to John Kerry who is afraid of Americans with a voice and a little money to spend.

Let's start a line about Kerry here and see how long it takes him to shut this down.

The right thing.......................

J.E.

James 4:8

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Get real. Let's check the balance in dollars, air time, etc.

Like it or not this represents free speach at it's greatest and now Bush is going to cave in to John Kerry who is afraid of Americans with a voice and a little money to spend.

Let's start a line about Kerry here and see how long it takes him to shut this down.

The right thing.......................

J.E.

527s have different rules than PACs. I was under the impression that Moveon was a PAC.
-----------------------------------------------------
Prohibitions on Direct Election Activity
Because contributions to a §527 orgnaization are not regulated by the Federal Election Commission, these organizations may not make any expenditures involving express advocacy for the election or defeat of any candidate for federal elective office.
----------------------------------------------------

Now tell me that SBVFT is obeying THAT rule.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

527s have different rules than PACs. I was under the impression that Moveon was a PAC.

Stop confusing the issue with facts.

[diverdriver 6]

Quote

Re: "promising to take legal action to stop political ads by outside groups"

I am highly disturbed by the talk from both camps aimed at restricting free political speech.

There is nothing honorable about such efforts. It violates the Constitution.

If they don't like what someone is saying about them, they can respond and counter the information.

However, banning free speech by anyone or any group must not happen.

So if a woman claims sexual harasment when it really wasn't true then it's "free speech" right? Because the man would have the oportunity to respond and counter. There wouldn't be any snap to judgement at all by the co-workers. No stigma left. It would just all be cleared up, eh?

Free Speech comes with responsibility to not lie. However, that concept went out the window long ago.

edit: can't spall "speech". Ugh.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

527s have different rules than PACs. I was under the impression that Moveon was a PAC.
-----------------------------------------------------
Prohibitions on Direct Election Activity
Because contributions to a §527 orgnaization are not regulated by the Federal Election Commission, these organizations may not make any expenditures involving express advocacy for the election or defeat of any candidate for federal elective office.
----------------------------------------------------

Now tell me that SBVFT is obeying THAT rule.

Now show me where the SBVFT ad said "Don't vote for Kerry" or "Vote for Bush"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

So if a woman claims sexual harasment when it really wasn't true then it's "free speach" right? Because the man would have the oportunity to respond and counter. There wouldn't be any snap to judgement at all by the co-workers. No stigma left. It would just all be cleared up, eh?

That's a different issue. If someone lies, they shoudl be held accountable for that. But you shouldn't ban people from talking because they MIGHT lie.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

OK, since you insist:

BUSH DISHONORABLE, succumbs to pressure from GOP Senator to do the WRONG thing.

Ah, the typical one-sided partisan kallend slant.

It's amusing how you omit the fact that Kerry wants the same thing.

Can you bring yourself to admit that suppressing all political coverage except that which derives directly from the political parties themselves, is a bad thing?

Or are you so hung-up on your hatred of Bush, that the only slant you can see on any news, is the one that is negative towards Bush?

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Yeah, just like he said that all the 527's are taking advantage of the loophole....

Has anyone else noted the irony of John McCain here? He's the one that authored and passed the campaign finance reform law, which created the 527 organization political ads. And now he says they should be banned...

I guess they won't be happy until some new Joseph Goebbels is the only person allowed to disseminate political news.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

So if a woman claims sexual harasment when it really wasn't true then it's "free speech" right? Because the man would have the oportunity to respond and counter. There wouldn't be any snap to judgement at all by the co-workers. No stigma left. It would just all be cleared up, eh?

Free Speech comes with responsibility to not lie. However, that concept went out the window long ago.

In your example, the man can prove himself innocent, and the woman will be charged with making a false crime report, and will end up discredited. The public then knows the truth. After that, if there is anyone who still applies a stigma against the man, then it is because they are close-minded. It's not perfect, but it's better than passing a law forbidding all women from making claims of sexual harassment.

It's a basic principle of freedom. You allow everyone to have freedom of speech, and you punish those that abuse it, by commiting slander, revealing national secrets, etc. The alternative of preemptively forbidding free speech entirely, is unacceptable, and will lead us down the road to tyranny.

You can yell "fire" in a crowded theatre if you want. But if you cause a stampede that injures people, you're going to go to jail for your negligent conduct. That is as it should be. We should not issue mandatory muzzles to everyone who enters theaters, to preemptively prevent them from yelling "fire".

Free speech must be preserved. However, there are consequences for lying or using it irresponsibly. If someone doesn't like the way that free speech is being used, they can counter it with their own exercise of free speech.

Are you in favor of allowing only the democratic and republican parties to decide for the entire country what the truth is? I certainly hope not. You should be very careful here of what you ask for. You might get it...

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Is Moveon.org a 527?

Quote from Moveon.org:

The MoveOn family of organizations consists of three entities. MoveOn.org, a 501(c)(4) organization, primarily focuses on education and advocacy on important national issues. MoveOn PAC, a federal PAC, primarily helps members elect candidates who reflect our values. And MoveOn.org Voter Fund, a 527 organization, primarily educates voters on the positions, records, views, and qualifications of candidates for public office.

Source: http://www.moveon.org/about/

The number of people here who seem to be in favor of government-controlled political news, is frightening.

I don't like the spin that Moveon.org puts on things, but I certainly support their right to say it. I am confident that when they lie and distort, that those flaws will be revealed by others, also using free speech. Then the public can decide for themselves. This is the way free speech should work.

[diverdriver 6]

Ok, John, I see your point. Maybe I should have said that THIS 527 group that is way out of line should be banned from further releases but that hasn't happened. And I don't know if anyone can actually sue them.

We all know how people walk up to the line of slander/liable and have the intended "cloud" cast on the target person without being in "violation". I guess that's what I'm getting at.

[billvon 3,073]

>Now show me where the SBVFT ad said "Don't vote for Kerry" or "Vote for Bush"

"We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief."
-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth