Ron 10 #2 August 27, 2004 Quote Well? I don't believe in a soul. so it will be the same as anyone else."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverkaz 0 #3 August 27, 2004 i do very much believe in the soul, and i think a cloned human would have a soul, unique personality, call it what you want. For whilst it is genetically identical to the parent cells it was cloned from, it would have unique experiences, environment, life in general. And i think that would make it a unique individual, even if it has the same genes as someone else.If you're gona skate on thin ice, you might as well dance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #4 August 27, 2004 Gawd knows, we know not what we are trifling with. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #5 August 27, 2004 Identical twins are, in effect, clones. The question reflects a Dark Ages mindset. You'd have to refer to theological treatises ca. three-digits AD to get a definitive treatment of the subject. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #6 August 27, 2004 Hey Ron....you know what I think about your statement? You're right Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #7 August 27, 2004 Quote Hey Ron....you know what I think about your statement? You're right Mark this date down....PK came to his senses... Did it hurt the first time? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #8 August 27, 2004 Like shitting a bowling ball. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #9 August 27, 2004 of course it will have a soul... twins have souls right? a clone born from a human womb is still a human, and still has a soul. unless according to some people, having the same genes as someone else means you have no soul... so does having close genes to another, such as two brothers, mean you have less of a soul then a only-child? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #10 August 27, 2004 define 'soul'. do you mean 'can it dance'? well that just depends on how its raised ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #11 August 27, 2004 Quote of course it will have a soul... twins have souls right? a clone born from a human womb is still a human, and still has a soul. unless according to some people, having the same genes as someone else means you have no soul... so does having close genes to another, such as two brothers, mean you have less of a soul then a only-child? Why do you think there are "evil twins" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #12 August 27, 2004 Is your soul your concience? then - yeah - probably - Is a soul a metphisical being trapped in side you? Well - ummm - then maybe not - Do you believe in little green men?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #13 August 27, 2004 only with shells on their backs.. i'd be really interested in what the consensusis on what a 'soul' is... it isnt something that is taught by most 'chucrch level' theology, it is an assumed quality/characteristic that isnt very well defined in most religions...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #14 August 27, 2004 this is the whole religious background thing. sufice it to say that God may have created man - but Man definately created God.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #15 August 27, 2004 your misapplying an action there... Man created his images of God.. What the religious fail to grasp is that the creations of Man (religions, churches etc) have no bearing on the nature of God, no matter how often, or how loudly they claim sole truth and authority... Man creates the face he paints on God, in fact every individual creates that image for themselves based on their experience (often highly influenced by whatever religion they were born into) including 'no face at all' None of which affects God in the least...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #16 August 27, 2004 Soul – The immaterial part of a person, life force, spiritual essence, sentience, etc. The soul is really religious in nature and you can’t prove scientifically that a person has one. However, assuming that you do have one (which I believe) and in reference to the question, the soul is separate from one’s DNA structure (i.e. immaterial or not physical). DNA is the blueprint for the body. The soul resides within the body. Building a duplicate of your neighbor’s house does not replicate the family inside. Cloning occurs naturally in twins. However, both twins, although they share the same genetic code, possess individual selves. Some will say that their individuality is completely a consequence of their environment and that may be the case, to a degree, but I believe there's more to it than that. Just my opinion. Not trying to force "beliefs" down anyone's throats. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #17 August 27, 2004 are souls mortal or immortal? are they tied to the flesh? are souls limited to animal life? why? this discussion has to be about belief, although i'd love for someone to find some 'evidence'. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #18 August 27, 2004 Quote are souls mortal or immortal? are they tied to the flesh? are souls limited to animal life? why? this discussion has to be about belief, although i'd love for someone to find some 'evidence'. I agree. This discussion does have to be about belief. Like I said, I can't prove "scientifically" to you that the soul exists. I can only tell you what I believe in my heart of hearts to be true. I believe the Bible to be true and that states that there is a soul and where it comes from. However, I know you don't believe that and that is a whole other discussion that we've been through. Here's what I "believe", though. I "believe" that the soul is immortal and not tied to the flesh (speaking long term). Although, while we're here (short term), it resides in this body. I believe souls are limited to animal life. Plants were created for people, as were animals. My reasons for believing this way are Biblically based, as you know. Again, I know full well that you don't buy it, as you've so emphatically shown in the past, and that's ok too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #19 August 27, 2004 The Right Reverend Ian Paisley (Ulster Protestant) was once giving one of his public rants: !... And in Hell, which is where all the Catholics will go, there will be a great pain, and a great wailing, and a great gnashing of teeth!... At this point an old Catholic woman in the front row smiled her gummy toothless smile and heckled "What if we've got no teeth Father?" Undeterred, the Right Git... Reverend... Ian Paisley shouted "Teeth will be provided!" So... If god's gonna provide teeth for the sinners, we can pretty much count on him providing souls for the innocent. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #21 August 27, 2004 Quote Well? I dunno. Do regular humans have souls? If my best friend's sperm fertilized his wife's egg and made a pair of cells grow into trillions of cells and become a daughter who is now two years old -- can someone tell me at what point a soul appeared in that matrix? Did it spontaneously generate itself there the very instant the two cells began working together? Did the soul exist in some heavenly repository, waiting for a sperm/egg pairing to occur, and then it jumped down to earth and became a little girl? I think that since no one knows how it works, no one should be claiming to even know souls exist. If you can't know where souls come from, and you can't quantify them, see them, measure them, detect them, I'd like to know on what basis -- besides "faith" -- anybody knows that souls exist. I have lots of issues with the ostensible ways souls "work." I also have questions about what the soul is supposed to be. If a person has a stroke, or suffers from Alzheimer's disease, and their mental being just sort of rots away and they are no longer mentally the person they once were, and are heavily debilitated, is that the soul debilitated, or do we really just prove that the so-called "soul" is just a function of the biology of the brain? I'd love to believe that we are eternal souls, but I just have no reason to, and lots of evidence for not believing so. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #22 August 27, 2004 i'd be interested in your 'evidence' against the existance of the soul as much as any evidence for.... I'd also be interested in biblical citations that indicate when the soul enters the flesh and where it resides....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #23 August 27, 2004 Quote i'd be interested in your 'evidence' against the existance of the soul as much as any evidence for.... I'd also be interested in biblical citations that indicate when the soul enters the flesh and where it resides.... Well, I always imagined that the "soul" was the sum of the conscious entity that is "you" (or "me"), and does the thinking and feeling. So if I take a konk on the head and lose a bunch of mental function, what was damaged? My brain or my soul? And if I live the rest of my life in that state, unable to think clearly and maybe unable to communicate, if that's not my soul that's been damaged, then what good is my soul? If the soul is not the consciousness, and we cannot "feel" our own souls, what are our souls supposed to be? We can demonstrate that injury, drugs and alcohol can have a profound effect on our conscious state. What if, as a captive to some bizarre experiment, a person was kept doped-up, in a constant drug-induced haze of irrational behavior, from, say age 21 til death, incited to do all sorts of immoral and sinful things under the influence of those drugs, and it never occurred to him nor was he permitted to seek cleansing of his "soul" through religious worship and confession? What would be the state of his soul? All he'd have ever known would be a drug haze, like he was constantly high and "out of it." When he dies, and his "soul" goes wherever it goes, what would its state be? And let's say it goes to heaven because it wasn't his fault he was prevented from spiritual cleansing (I dunno, does god make such allowances?). Would he reach heaven and miraculously be transformed into a clearheaded soul that he never had been on earth? What about BABIES that die? If their souls go to heaven, having never developed into thinking, conscious adults, do they just sit there on their backs in a crib in heaven for eternity, perhaps being provided with the things that make BABIES comfortable and satisfied? Or does god "age-progress" them to a state where they're consciously able to enjoy heaven as a developed adult? These things I wonder. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #24 August 27, 2004 Not arguing the validity of the Christian Bible with you on this one. Just giving examples of what you requested. I used to think that the soul existed prior to conception based on scripture such as: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5 Source: Appointed by God However, I believe that this actually is just speaking of the life plan for the person. I believe that some of what I’ve said in another thread (A male’s perspective on abortion) could be wrong. I stand corrected. The following gives an explanation of the 2 theories concerning the creation of the soul: Question: "How are human souls created? Do they exist in heaven before they are 'attached' to a body?” Answer: There are two primary views on how the soul is created: (1) Traducianism is the theory that a soul is generated by the physical parents along with the body. (A) In Genesis 2:7 God breathed the breath of life into Adam, something which did not happen again. (B) Adam had a son in his own likeness (Genesis 5:3). (C) God did no further creating (Genesis 2:2-3). (D) Adam's sin affects all men -- both physically and spiritually -- this makes sense if the body and soul come from the parents. (2) Creationism was held by many church fathers and also has Scriptural support. First, Scripture differentiates the origin of the soul from the origin of the body (Ecclesiastes 12:7, Isaiah 42:5, Zechariah 12:1, Hebrews 12:9). Second, if God creates each individual soul at the moment it is needed, the separation of soul and body is held firm. The ultimate answer to the question is that the soul does not exist before it inhabits the body. Whether the Traducianist view is correct or the Creationist view is correct, both have the same answer to the question - the soul does not exist prior to conception. Source: Soul Theories Another scriptural example explaining why the soul might not exist until conception is as follows: "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:47 Source: Souls exist prior to creation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #25 August 28, 2004 Hi Jeffrey, The proof of existence of "God" and his creation was once proved to me. At least to my satisfaction. Take an egg whisk. 27 pieces of pressed steel and moulded plastic. Reduce it to it's component parts. Put them in a box and shake them about. Let me know when you have recreated the egg whisk. Now consider the simplest of god's creations, a leaf, a virus, bacteria... and look at how much more complicated they are. NOW tell me that life is chance. Like I said before... Souls will be provided. God is good and merciful. A soul is the accumulation of what is good in you. Whole and intact. Have faith. Mike. . Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
