rickjump1 0 #1 August 30, 2004 According to the BBC news, "France has said it will not drop a law banning Muslim headscarves in state schools, despite demands by militants holding two French journalists in Iraq." What's next: shutting down MTV because it infects the minds of Arab kids living in the US.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #2 August 30, 2004 QuoteAccording to the BBC news, "France has said it will not drop a law banning Muslim headscarves in state schools, despite demands by militants holding two French journalists in Iraq." What's next: shutting down MTV because it infects the minds of Arab kids living in the US. Well - I am impressed with France. They are doing what Spain could not. Good on them!I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jjiimmyyt 0 #3 August 30, 2004 I'm sorry but these girls believe that they are required to wear this dress this way as part of their religion. Whilst I may not agree with it I do believe that people should be able to wear crosses, skullcaps or headscarves, whatever their religion. I don't agree with the thugs that are threating to kill over this but that should not affect whether the school kids can wear headscarves. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #4 August 30, 2004 1/ It seems pretty obvious that the kidnappers did not know who the journalists were at first, then came up with the headscarf banissue as a revendication to justify the kidnapping. 2/ Although I agree that banning "oversized" religious signs can be an infringement upon one's freedom of speech and religion, one of the French Republic's crucial pillar was (and still is) a very strict separation of state and religion (as the Catholic church in France was associated with the monarchy). Hence, whereas in the US freedom of religion was an essential part of the constitution, the French constitution makes a point of making sure that religion does not get involved in the public sphere (private sector is obviously immune to the ban). Whether that's good or bad is, as you mention, a totally different issue. The ultimatum expires in 1 1/2 hour Nick "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #5 August 30, 2004 Quote1/ It seems pretty obvious that the kidnappers did not know who the journalists were at first, then came up with the headscarf banissue as a revendication to justify the kidnapping......... Killing these guys will be bad BR if it matters to these assholes. Yasser Arafat and the head of the Grand Mosque in Paris are among numerous Mulsims saying they should be released. Al-Jazeera says this is the same group that killed the Italian journalist last week.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jjiimmyyt 0 #6 August 30, 2004 As I said, the twats holding the guys hostage should have nothing to do with this. Banning people from wearing their clothing of choice is strange, I believe most French schools do not have a uniform policy, therefore they can wear what they like unless it is offensive to others. I don't think covering themselves up is offensive. I actually think that requiring women to cover up is repressive but if that is their choice so be it. btw, I don't usually post in this forum what with whole argueing internet/special Olympics thing. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #7 August 30, 2004 The French rule about headscarves is fairly new, this year I think. In the past, Jewish and Christian students didn't have this rule. I am wondering why this new rule was implemented. From the outside (I don't live there), it does seem a little coincidental. However, there are diplomatic channels and civilized ways of discussing things. Is this the mechanism to be used for every issue? It's a way to end up with zero friends. That is a lonely thing in todays world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #8 August 30, 2004 The issue has to do with the rise of radical islam in France (and throughout the world). The muslim populationin France is around 10% of the general population, and rising. More and more girls are "forced" by their family to wear headscarf, the most extremist of them have their face covered at all times. I think the (unofficial) idea behind the ban is to give these girls the opportunity to excape parental and religious control while at school. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #9 August 30, 2004 Quote"France has said it will not drop a law banning Muslim headscarves in state schools, despite demands by militants holding two French journalists in Iraq." And the irony is that the Muslim extremists making the demand are probably the biggest religious bigots in the entire world. How much tolerance do they have for Christianity in their countries? None. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #10 August 30, 2004 I don't believe that is a desire for fairness or tolerance. It is an order to do it "their way". In a way, religious tolerance is an oxymoron. If you really believe that your religion is the only way to and the other religions are leading people to , then a true believer should not be tolerant. The other religions are just minions of Satan. A true believer would not only be intolerant, but antagonistic. The original "Zealots" were Jews who carried their fight to the death (Masada) and killed Roman sympathizers with daggers. That type of attitude has existed in all religions, at some point. It is not surprising to find it among Muslims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jjiimmyyt 0 #11 August 30, 2004 Don't assume that these girls are forced into this. They seriously believe that they should wear the headscarves. Do you think we should ban Amish bonnets? "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #12 August 30, 2004 QuoteI'm sorry but these girls believe that they are required to wear this dress this way as part of their religion. Whilst I may not agree with it I do believe that people should be able to wear crosses, skullcaps or headscarves, whatever their religion. I don't agree with the thugs that are threating to kill over this but that should not affect whether the school kids can wear headscarves. --- I see you wear interesting headgear too. Is this required by your religion?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #13 August 30, 2004 "GOOD FOR THEM" That is a sad answer. So it is ok to disrespect someone’s religious requirement as long as it is about Muslims. I am surprised by the answer of some in here. I wonder how you feel if they say you are not allowed to wear a cross around your neck how about if they ban church on Sundays. I bet that would piss you off. Repeat after me Hypocrisy.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #14 August 30, 2004 QuoteQuote"France has said it will not drop a law banning Muslim headscarves in state schools, despite demands by militants holding two French journalists in Iraq." And the irony is that the Muslim extremists making the demand are probably the biggest religious bigots in the entire world. How much tolerance do they have for Christianity in their countries? None. The (Christian) Inquistion tortured some 35,000 people to death for not worshipping in the approved way.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #15 August 30, 2004 Don't assume that these girls are forced into this. They seriously believe that they should wear the headscarves.*** I don't doubt it. Lots of women in Afghanistan will tell you that they WANT to wear the burqua. But there is a legitimate fear that some forms of orthodoxy in the muslim religion (or any other for that matter) can lead to form of extremism. I don't believe the ban does anything to address this issue, if nothing else, it reinforces and encourages extremism. I'm sure that some women would justify that FGM (female genital mutilation) is a legitimate act. All the French law was saying is "not on public ground". Once again, I'm not convinced it's accomplishing its goal though... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimbarry 0 #16 August 30, 2004 Muslim extremists fight when they feel outsiders are trying to control them. Yet to these same extremists, France should have its rules dictated to it by outsiders? You live in France, you live by French rules. You don't have to like them or agree with them, you are only expected to abide by them. And if not, then use the system provided for changing them. And if not, then consider civil disobedience, which no, doesn't include murder. Looks like these kidnappers have painted themselves into a corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,453 #17 August 30, 2004 I read about this quite awhile ago; supposedly, the ban is against "ostentatious" religious display in the schools. Which would include large crosses (that was given as an example), yarmulkes, and headscarves. Whether or not it's enforced that way is a good question. It's a hard line to draw, isn't it? A headscarf won't necessarily keep you from doing anything -- I saw a girl making her first tandem jump take her scarf off for the jump (after all, it wouldn't be safe with it, and safe is important). Attitudes of people in the community are much more likely to. Some people feel that the repression of women that's seen in some of the stricter sects of Islam is worse than the repression of women that's seen in some of the stricter sects of Judaism or Christianity. As a woman, I don't really like any of it. Maybe it's all what you grow up with. Horizons are meant to be broad, not narrow. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #18 August 30, 2004 Fine then ban all things for all religions. No crosses, Star of David’s, Pentagrams, O what ever else. If you are only going to ban things for Muslims I don't blame them for being pissed off. I would be too.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #19 August 30, 2004 I wonder how you feel if they say you are not allowed to wear a cross around your neck how about if they ban church on Sundays. I bet that would piss you off. Repeat after me Hypocrisy.Quote The French law in question stipulates than wearing "reasonably sized" symbols of one's religion is perfectly acceptable. Regardless of the religion. It ban what it feels crosses the line between "personal belief" and "religious statement". A big red crusader cross on a kid's T-Shirt would be ban much like the burqua. Repeat after me Hypocrisy.*** You can call it what you want. There are plenty of other "hypocricy" in Western policies, not only in French legislation and stances, but accross the spectrum including the US. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #20 August 30, 2004 Fine then ban all things for all religions. No crosses, Star of David’s, Pentagrams, O what ever else. If you are only going to ban things for Muslims I don't blame them for being pissed off. I would be too. *** Once again, the law does not ban the wearing of scarves only. It includes ALL FORMS of, as Wendy put it", ostentatious display of religion in public buildings. It may not be fair, but then it's not fair across the board. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,453 #21 August 30, 2004 And the problem, of course, is that the headscarf is, to many women who wear it, a statement of belief; a given; no more ostentatious than wearing shoes. Same thing with a yarmulke or tallis, or saffron-colored robes. But when you don't grow up around them, it's ostentatious. And since few Christian symbols have a history of being big (well, except for some nuns' headgear), anything that is really obvious probably is meant to be ostentatious. And yes, of course there's hypocrisy in the US -- why on earth wouldn't there be? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mardigrasbob 0 #22 August 30, 2004 Europe has a very large and growing Islamic population. They tend to be separate from the societies in which they live. Europe has faced invasions from Asia and 'Persia' for a thousand years. This is a soft invasion but an invasion just the same. The French are terrified of the this. I think a great deal of their opposition to the Iraq war was fear of radical Islamists and the growing number of homegrown terrorists. Something akin to living in a drug neighborhood, you can't take a stand, snitching will get you killed, and you can't move. I am glad to see that they are trying something but this seems asinine! ------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jjiimmyyt 0 #23 August 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'm sorry but these girls believe that they are required to wear this dress this way as part of their religion. Whilst I may not agree with it I do believe that people should be able to wear crosses, skullcaps or headscarves, whatever their religion. I don't agree with the thugs that are threating to kill over this but that should not affect whether the school kids can wear headscarves. --- I see you wear interesting headgear too. Is this required by your religion? Nah it just something to keep the bits in when I hit the beach too hard. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #24 August 30, 2004 QuoteFine then ban all things for all religions. No crosses, Star of David’s, Pentagrams, O what ever else. If you are only going to ban things for Muslims I don't blame them for being pissed off. I would be too. BBC news clicky QuoteThe ban became law in March after months of acrimonious debate. It is regarded as central to the government's policy of keeping state institutions secular, but has sparked protests at home and abroad, with many Muslims saying they feel unfairly targeted. The law forbids religious apparel and "conspicuous" signs that show a student's religious affiliation. Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses are also forbidden. The law is being applied to Christian and Jewish symbols also. However, I still don't see the point of having the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jjiimmyyt 0 #25 August 30, 2004 Thing is this being applied selectivly, Living a few miles from France (can see at on the ride up) I have spoken with and worked with many Frenchies. One person I worked with this summer who was training to be an English teacher told me she had come across this issue and the Christians and Jews were not having this enforced. "This isn't an iron lung, people. 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jjiimmyyt 0 #6 August 30, 2004 As I said, the twats holding the guys hostage should have nothing to do with this. Banning people from wearing their clothing of choice is strange, I believe most French schools do not have a uniform policy, therefore they can wear what they like unless it is offensive to others. I don't think covering themselves up is offensive. I actually think that requiring women to cover up is repressive but if that is their choice so be it. btw, I don't usually post in this forum what with whole argueing internet/special Olympics thing. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #7 August 30, 2004 The French rule about headscarves is fairly new, this year I think. In the past, Jewish and Christian students didn't have this rule. I am wondering why this new rule was implemented. From the outside (I don't live there), it does seem a little coincidental. However, there are diplomatic channels and civilized ways of discussing things. Is this the mechanism to be used for every issue? It's a way to end up with zero friends. That is a lonely thing in todays world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #8 August 30, 2004 The issue has to do with the rise of radical islam in France (and throughout the world). The muslim populationin France is around 10% of the general population, and rising. More and more girls are "forced" by their family to wear headscarf, the most extremist of them have their face covered at all times. I think the (unofficial) idea behind the ban is to give these girls the opportunity to excape parental and religious control while at school. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #9 August 30, 2004 Quote"France has said it will not drop a law banning Muslim headscarves in state schools, despite demands by militants holding two French journalists in Iraq." And the irony is that the Muslim extremists making the demand are probably the biggest religious bigots in the entire world. How much tolerance do they have for Christianity in their countries? None. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #10 August 30, 2004 I don't believe that is a desire for fairness or tolerance. It is an order to do it "their way". In a way, religious tolerance is an oxymoron. If you really believe that your religion is the only way to and the other religions are leading people to , then a true believer should not be tolerant. The other religions are just minions of Satan. A true believer would not only be intolerant, but antagonistic. The original "Zealots" were Jews who carried their fight to the death (Masada) and killed Roman sympathizers with daggers. That type of attitude has existed in all religions, at some point. It is not surprising to find it among Muslims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jjiimmyyt 0 #11 August 30, 2004 Don't assume that these girls are forced into this. They seriously believe that they should wear the headscarves. Do you think we should ban Amish bonnets? "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #12 August 30, 2004 QuoteI'm sorry but these girls believe that they are required to wear this dress this way as part of their religion. Whilst I may not agree with it I do believe that people should be able to wear crosses, skullcaps or headscarves, whatever their religion. I don't agree with the thugs that are threating to kill over this but that should not affect whether the school kids can wear headscarves. --- I see you wear interesting headgear too. Is this required by your religion?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #13 August 30, 2004 "GOOD FOR THEM" That is a sad answer. So it is ok to disrespect someone’s religious requirement as long as it is about Muslims. I am surprised by the answer of some in here. I wonder how you feel if they say you are not allowed to wear a cross around your neck how about if they ban church on Sundays. I bet that would piss you off. Repeat after me Hypocrisy.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #14 August 30, 2004 QuoteQuote"France has said it will not drop a law banning Muslim headscarves in state schools, despite demands by militants holding two French journalists in Iraq." And the irony is that the Muslim extremists making the demand are probably the biggest religious bigots in the entire world. How much tolerance do they have for Christianity in their countries? None. The (Christian) Inquistion tortured some 35,000 people to death for not worshipping in the approved way.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #15 August 30, 2004 Don't assume that these girls are forced into this. They seriously believe that they should wear the headscarves.*** I don't doubt it. Lots of women in Afghanistan will tell you that they WANT to wear the burqua. But there is a legitimate fear that some forms of orthodoxy in the muslim religion (or any other for that matter) can lead to form of extremism. I don't believe the ban does anything to address this issue, if nothing else, it reinforces and encourages extremism. I'm sure that some women would justify that FGM (female genital mutilation) is a legitimate act. All the French law was saying is "not on public ground". Once again, I'm not convinced it's accomplishing its goal though... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimbarry 0 #16 August 30, 2004 Muslim extremists fight when they feel outsiders are trying to control them. Yet to these same extremists, France should have its rules dictated to it by outsiders? You live in France, you live by French rules. You don't have to like them or agree with them, you are only expected to abide by them. And if not, then use the system provided for changing them. And if not, then consider civil disobedience, which no, doesn't include murder. Looks like these kidnappers have painted themselves into a corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,453 #17 August 30, 2004 I read about this quite awhile ago; supposedly, the ban is against "ostentatious" religious display in the schools. Which would include large crosses (that was given as an example), yarmulkes, and headscarves. Whether or not it's enforced that way is a good question. It's a hard line to draw, isn't it? A headscarf won't necessarily keep you from doing anything -- I saw a girl making her first tandem jump take her scarf off for the jump (after all, it wouldn't be safe with it, and safe is important). Attitudes of people in the community are much more likely to. Some people feel that the repression of women that's seen in some of the stricter sects of Islam is worse than the repression of women that's seen in some of the stricter sects of Judaism or Christianity. As a woman, I don't really like any of it. Maybe it's all what you grow up with. Horizons are meant to be broad, not narrow. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #18 August 30, 2004 Fine then ban all things for all religions. No crosses, Star of David’s, Pentagrams, O what ever else. If you are only going to ban things for Muslims I don't blame them for being pissed off. I would be too.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #19 August 30, 2004 I wonder how you feel if they say you are not allowed to wear a cross around your neck how about if they ban church on Sundays. I bet that would piss you off. Repeat after me Hypocrisy.Quote The French law in question stipulates than wearing "reasonably sized" symbols of one's religion is perfectly acceptable. Regardless of the religion. It ban what it feels crosses the line between "personal belief" and "religious statement". A big red crusader cross on a kid's T-Shirt would be ban much like the burqua. Repeat after me Hypocrisy.*** You can call it what you want. There are plenty of other "hypocricy" in Western policies, not only in French legislation and stances, but accross the spectrum including the US. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #20 August 30, 2004 Fine then ban all things for all religions. No crosses, Star of David’s, Pentagrams, O what ever else. If you are only going to ban things for Muslims I don't blame them for being pissed off. I would be too. *** Once again, the law does not ban the wearing of scarves only. It includes ALL FORMS of, as Wendy put it", ostentatious display of religion in public buildings. It may not be fair, but then it's not fair across the board. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,453 #21 August 30, 2004 And the problem, of course, is that the headscarf is, to many women who wear it, a statement of belief; a given; no more ostentatious than wearing shoes. Same thing with a yarmulke or tallis, or saffron-colored robes. But when you don't grow up around them, it's ostentatious. And since few Christian symbols have a history of being big (well, except for some nuns' headgear), anything that is really obvious probably is meant to be ostentatious. And yes, of course there's hypocrisy in the US -- why on earth wouldn't there be? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #22 August 30, 2004 Europe has a very large and growing Islamic population. They tend to be separate from the societies in which they live. Europe has faced invasions from Asia and 'Persia' for a thousand years. This is a soft invasion but an invasion just the same. The French are terrified of the this. I think a great deal of their opposition to the Iraq war was fear of radical Islamists and the growing number of homegrown terrorists. Something akin to living in a drug neighborhood, you can't take a stand, snitching will get you killed, and you can't move. I am glad to see that they are trying something but this seems asinine! ------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jjiimmyyt 0 #23 August 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'm sorry but these girls believe that they are required to wear this dress this way as part of their religion. Whilst I may not agree with it I do believe that people should be able to wear crosses, skullcaps or headscarves, whatever their religion. I don't agree with the thugs that are threating to kill over this but that should not affect whether the school kids can wear headscarves. --- I see you wear interesting headgear too. Is this required by your religion? Nah it just something to keep the bits in when I hit the beach too hard. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #24 August 30, 2004 QuoteFine then ban all things for all religions. No crosses, Star of David’s, Pentagrams, O what ever else. If you are only going to ban things for Muslims I don't blame them for being pissed off. I would be too. BBC news clicky QuoteThe ban became law in March after months of acrimonious debate. It is regarded as central to the government's policy of keeping state institutions secular, but has sparked protests at home and abroad, with many Muslims saying they feel unfairly targeted. The law forbids religious apparel and "conspicuous" signs that show a student's religious affiliation. Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses are also forbidden. The law is being applied to Christian and Jewish symbols also. However, I still don't see the point of having the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jjiimmyyt 0 #25 August 30, 2004 Thing is this being applied selectivly, Living a few miles from France (can see at on the ride up) I have spoken with and worked with many Frenchies. One person I worked with this summer who was training to be an English teacher told me she had come across this issue and the Christians and Jews were not having this enforced. "This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
