funks 1
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Quoteyes.
I'll second that.
Forty-two
QuoteQuoteyes.
I'll second that.
Me as well.
PhreeZone 20
You know.. there is nothing from stoping you from going over there and freelancing if you really feel that strongly about it.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
nbblood 0
Quote...was actively seeking or had WMDs...
Allow me to correct this to say
Quote]...was actively seeking and had and USED WMDs...
Blues,
Nathan
Blues,
Nathan
If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.
Nathan
If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.
wmw999 2,447
to the question -- "do we really want to operate at their level"
And yet you all say we're different from them? If it's venting, fine, I understand venting, but call it that, and don't think of it as virtuous.
Wendy W.
Quote
yes
I'll second that
me as well
And yet you all say we're different from them? If it's venting, fine, I understand venting, but call it that, and don't think of it as virtuous.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
sfc 1
QuoteQuoteyes.
I'll second that.
So what is stopping you and funks from heading off to iraq and blowing up an iraqi school? You huff and puff on DZ.com, but I don't think have the balls to following through on your big words.
QuoteWhat I get from reading you and PJ is that it is OK to wipe out all the iraqis because some of them are terrorists.
If you went to iraq, would you feel ok dragging some random person off the street and killing them, justifying with, "well you did it to an american"?.
You also have failed to notice that these terrorists come from all over, they hide in places we cannot find or bomb. Turning iraq into glass will only get a few of them.
The main thing that distinguishes us from these animals is the rule of law, if we ignore that (and we have come perilously close to doing so already I think) we become no better than them. Revenge is tool of these terrorist animals, do you really want to operate at their level?
These terrorist animals are not taking revenge, they are striking us specifically and exclusively because their religion teaches them to HATE us, for various reasons. They will not rest, or feel that they have pleased their god, until they have either converted us to their twisted religion, or eradicated us. Their actions prove this every day.
We do not "become as bad as they are" if we exterminate them before they get us. Why? Because if they were not trying to do it to us, we would have no interest in doing it to them. THAT is enough of a difference to retain between them and us. Of course KILLING makes us similar to them -- there is no way around us. They also have two nostrils, just like we do. This whole "be careful not to be just as bad as they are" thing is an illusion!! We don't turn into them just because we kill them to preserve ourselves. They would be doing it to us.
And maybe you're right, a nuke would not get them all, and would kill innocents. Those "innocents" harbor these people; they hide them from us; they fail to police themselves and eliminate the terrorists from their own ranks; they do not stand up to the evil among them, forcing us to do it. It's like in elementary school: the teacher punishes everyone, and has to, because no one will admit which kid threw the spitball. So it is in the middle east. They refuse to give up the terrorists, so we are forced, for our own survival's sake, to hurt them all in order to hurt "the minority."
But if, beyond that, we were RUTHLESS in the way we pursued, tortured, and killed terrorist and their supporters, we would do one of two things: eliminate all who have it in their hearts to be terrorists, or scare them so bad that they would be afraid to be terrorists.
But holding ourselves "morally above" people who don't give a shit about moral relativism is just stupid and self-defeating. It's like refusing to kick someone in the groin in a street fight when the guy's going to kill you if you lose the fight. WTF is the point of fighting by gentlemen's rules?! That's DEATH.
Blue skies,
-Jeffrey
-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
funks 1
QuoteQuoteQuoteyes.
I'll second that.
So what is stopping you and funks from heading off to iraq and blowing up an iraqi school? You huff and puff on DZ.com, but I don't think have the balls to following through on your big words.
guess what, you are right, it is nothing but big words. we are on a freakin internet chat board..what else do you expect? we are not politicians nor do we have the capability to follow through with what we believe should be done....so what is stopping us from heading over there and doing that? think about it, how the hell are we supposed to follow through with what we believe should be done????
wmw999 2,447
Is it the religion -- should Islam be outlawed? Only some branches -- Sunni, Shiite? Or anyone who lives in the Middle East and isn't Jewish?
How about people in the US? Just the Muslims, or just the ones who come from certain countries. Since innocents harbor them, maybe we should take out the whole neighborhood wherever a Muslim lives, since they haven't killed them yet on their own. Shit -- that takes care of my Republican neighborhood -- there are at least 2 outwardly Muslim families on my street.
If there are criminals coming from a particular neighborhood, maybe we should just raze the neighborhood. How many criminals would it take -- 5/100? 5/1000? Does the number change if they're of a different color or live in a city you don't like?
Or maybe we should just nuke the whole earth, and that way we'll be damn sure that we got the fuckers.
Wendy W.
How about people in the US? Just the Muslims, or just the ones who come from certain countries. Since innocents harbor them, maybe we should take out the whole neighborhood wherever a Muslim lives, since they haven't killed them yet on their own. Shit -- that takes care of my Republican neighborhood -- there are at least 2 outwardly Muslim families on my street.
If there are criminals coming from a particular neighborhood, maybe we should just raze the neighborhood. How many criminals would it take -- 5/100? 5/1000? Does the number change if they're of a different color or live in a city you don't like?
Or maybe we should just nuke the whole earth, and that way we'll be damn sure that we got the fuckers.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
PhreeZone 20
Buying guns on the street in the Middle East is said to be extremely easy. I talked to a SF guy that was there and he said the same thing. Plane tickets are fairly inexpensive if you get down to it and building home made bombs is really easy if you know what you are doing.
There was just an arrest made in Afganastan of a guy and his crew freelancing in the hunt for terrorists there. He was torturing people, but he managed to live in country for months detaining people before they stoped him. In a lawless Iraq it should be like shooting fish in a barrel.
There was just an arrest made in Afganastan of a guy and his crew freelancing in the hunt for terrorists there. He was torturing people, but he managed to live in country for months detaining people before they stoped him. In a lawless Iraq it should be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
sfc 1
Quote
We do not "become as bad as they are" if we exterminate them before they get us.
I agree they should be removed, by whatever means is appropriate, don't get me wrong these animal that kill mindlessly deserve no mercy and should not be given any quarter.
Quote
the teacher punishes everyone, and has to, because no one will admit which kid threw the spitball. So it is in the middle east. They refuse to give up the terrorists, so we are forced, for our own survival's sake, to hurt them all in order to hurt "the minority."
If we did this we would be sinking to their level and this is where I disagree with you.
If someone on your street killed someone and got the death penalty, would you advocate putting everyone else on street to death as well including yourself?
Quote
It's like refusing to kick someone in the groin in a street fight when the guy's going to kill you if you lose the fight.
No it is not, it is like refusing to kick a passerby in the groin when someone is going to kill you, it does not have any affect on the perp, he doesn't care if you hurt someone else.
QuoteIf someone on your street killed someone and got the death penalty, would you advocate putting everyone else on street to death as well including yourself?
The people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would probably tell you that tactic is very affective.
Forty-two
sfc 1
QuoteQuoteIf someone on your street killed someone and got the death penalty, would you advocate putting everyone else on street to death as well including yourself?
The people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would probably tell you that tactic is very affective.
It was very effective, but what makes you think the situation in iraq can be ended the same way as WWII, it is a totally different situation. Terrorists don't operate the same way as a regular army and government, we are dealing with loosely organised gangs of fanatic killers who get more and more support every time someones dies in iraq. Bombs would just serve to inflame a situation that is already on the verge of being out of control.
QuoteYou know.. there is nothing from stoping you from going over there and freelancing if you really feel that strongly about it.
There's not?
What about those "vigilantes" who were just arrested for doing just that and are now in an AFGHAN PRISON?!
I thought about joining the military years ago, and decided against it because unfortunately, in addition to providing training and pay, the military requires you to essentially give up the sovereignty of your own life, and I just could not do that. I can take orders, but I cannot abide the notion that the military essentially would own me for a long period; force me to take injections of drugs not even approved by the FDA; keep my DNA on file; prohibit me from getting tattoos or piercings (my army brother told me you can get reprimands and docked pay for that); call me back even when I'm "out"; tell me where I must go and live for months or years at a time (which I understand is normal, but still distasteful)...
And all this, what to me amounts to punishment, for the sacrifice of serving my country?!
If I could join the military and serve without being forced to submit DNA (some marines, I remember, were court martialed for refusing); without being forced to take unproven, unapproved vaccines (some got trouble for refusing that, too); without agreeing to any longer of a tour of duty than those four or whatever years; I would probably have done it. I like the idea of learning the skills the military can provide, and I like the idea of using them to serve, but as far as I am concerned, the military demands too much of my freedom.
-Jeffrey
-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
Quoteto the question -- "do we really want to operate at their level"
Quote
yes
I'll second that
me as well
And yet you all say we're different from them? If it's venting, fine, I understand venting, but call it that, and don't think of it as virtuous.
Wendy W.
So now, we're not free to think of as virtuous what we deign to think of as virtuous? We have to employ YOUR model of what is virtuous?
I say it IS virtuous to be willing to rise up against an enemy, with full force, and exterminate those who would kill you without a thought.
Have any of you ever seen the Halloween episode of The Simpsons where Homer sold his soul for a donut? Homer outsmarted The Devil (Ned Flanders) by deciding to not eat the last bit of donut that would consign his soul to hell. He cheered, "I'm smarter than the Devil, I'm smarter than the Devil!"
And in an instant, the Flanders/Devil REARED UP INTO A HUGE, BLACK, EVIL THING, WITH A BOOMING, FURIOUS VOICE, POINTING DOWN MENACINGLY AT HOMER WITH A CLAWED FINGER, YELLING, "YOU ARE [B]NOT[/B] SMARTER THAN ME!!"
Well, that's what I picture that our country should turn into in the face of this radical islamist threat, which daily is killing our people. They provoked us. We came in, got rid of the Taliban evil dictatorship, got rid of the evil Saddam Hussein and his sadistic torturer sons (who make Abu Ghraib look like nap-time in nursery school), and WOULD be rebuilding high schools and hospitals and infrastructure, if it were not for the whackos there FIGHTING us at every turn! They COULD be liberated, we could be OUT of there, leaving them alone to live in peace and FREEDOM, but they fight us. I think we need to be that furious Flanders-Devil going from meek and mild one minute to potent, engorged fury the next, because we are not the aggressors here.
Blue skies,
-Jeffrey
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
billvon 2,991
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>What I get from reading you and PJ is that it is OK to wipe out all
> the iraqis because some of them are terrorists.
Of course! It makes as much sense whether you're a far right wing conservative or a Palestinian suicide bomber - as long as you strike against your enemy you're justified, even if you take out innocents. All that matters is striking back.
> the iraqis because some of them are terrorists.
Of course! It makes as much sense whether you're a far right wing conservative or a Palestinian suicide bomber - as long as you strike against your enemy you're justified, even if you take out innocents. All that matters is striking back.
billvon 2,991
>And if dropping a bomb doesnt wipe the psychos off the face of the
> earth it will sure as hell send one serious fucking message.
It sure will. It will show the world who the true enemy is. We can fight the Iraqis; we cannot defeat the entire world if we make it clear that we will use WMD's against civilians to send political messages. The world has stood up against people like that before; they will again if we prove that we are that evil.
> earth it will sure as hell send one serious fucking message.
It sure will. It will show the world who the true enemy is. We can fight the Iraqis; we cannot defeat the entire world if we make it clear that we will use WMD's against civilians to send political messages. The world has stood up against people like that before; they will again if we prove that we are that evil.
QuoteQuotethe teacher punishes everyone, and has to, because no one will admit which kid threw the spitball. So it is in the middle east. They refuse to give up the terrorists, so we are forced, for our own survival's sake, to hurt them all in order to hurt "the minority."
If we did this we would be sinking to their level and this is where I disagree with you.
If someone on your street killed someone and got the death penalty, would you advocate putting everyone else on street to death as well including yourself?Quote
You are not making an apt comparison. A single murderer on my street is not someone the rest of the street could possibly have kept control of. If it could be demonstrated, as has been in Iraq, tht many civilians are concealing or helping a murderer, failing to warn his targets, they are guilty.
We are dealing not with a single murderer, but with a cabal of murderers hiding in a country that gives its tacit approval, and is not even helping to try to get rid of them. They're apathetic, at best, or accomplices, at worst.QuoteQuote
It's like refusing to kick someone in the groin in a street fight when the guy's going to kill you if you lose the fight.
No it is not, it is like refusing to kick a passerby in the groin when someone is going to kill you, it does not have any affect on the perp, he doesn't care if you hurt someone else.
You seem to have utterly lost sight of the analogy. I was saying that when your adversary will fight using the dirtiest means possible, you are hurting only yourself if you limit yourself to "gentlemen's rules" to get him quelled.
Blue skies,
-Jeffrey
--Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
jimbarry 0
Quote
I thought about joining the military years ago...the military demands too much of my freedom.
For a guy I usually agree with, and one who spends a lot of electrons on this forum vigorously defending america, the 2d ammendment, our rights, and our privileges, who we should fight, when and how, this little rant of yours quite frankly makes me sick.
What you described *is* damn close to what military service is. Yep, you have grasped it pretty well. But it is not punishment, it is sacrifice. The best way to defend and deter our enemies is to provide a military made up of a group of people and equipment who work as a team. You can't build a military out of individuals operating as individuals. But giving yourself up completely to your country for a few years at the least is what many of us feel is an honorable way to give back and help pay for what we enjoy. Yes, that means that your precious little hide and individuality may be hindered or killed. Freedom is not free. I love my country and my family. I'll fight (and possibly die) for them.
Americans have the right not to serve, and they have the right to kick the military all they want on how they operate. Just makes me sick. "I want all the good stuff (that others died to give me), but no way I'm putting my ass on the line or giving up my body piercings." Please.
QuoteQuote
I thought about joining the military years ago...the military demands too much of my freedom.
For a guy I usually agree with, and one who spends a lot of electrons on this forum vigorously defending america, the 2d ammendment, our rights, and our privileges, who we should fight, when and how, this little rant of yours quite frankly makes me sick.
What you described *is* damn close to what military service is. Yep, you have grasped it pretty well. But it is not punishment, it is sacrifice. The best way to defend and deter our enemies is to provide a military made up of a group of people and equipment who work as a team. You can't build a military out of individuals operating as individuals. But giving yourself up completely to your country for a few years at the least is what many of us feel is an honorable way to give back and help pay for what we enjoy. Yes, that means that your precious little hide and individuality may be hindered or killed. Freedom is not free. I love my country and my family. I'll fight (and possibly die) for them.
Americans have the right not to serve, and they have the right to kick the military all they want on how they operate. Just makes me sick. "I want all the good stuff (that others died to give me), but no way I'm putting my ass on the line or giving up my body piercings." Please.
Look, I don't really care whether my views make you sick -- that was probably already obvious but I'll say it for the record.
I understand that military service is sacrifice -- but it need not be servitude, and that IS how I see it, and that IS why I made the decision to not join up!
What you are not grasping in my argument is that military service NEED NOT BE as preemptive of individual rights as it is. It would not take a whole lot to make it more palatable to a lot more people, and we would have that stronger force you are wishing for. I am very able bodied and able minded, and the military and this country is denied the services I could provide, because I am not willing to be UN-FREE in order to defend FREEDOM! That's just STUPID, and IT makes ME sick. And apparently, via my examples of soldiers who have rebelled against intrusive military policies, there are others who have been even more willing than I once was to make the sacrifice, who decided the military had pushed too far. Requiring people to take unproven, unapproved drugs?! Requiring people to submit their DNA to be forever recorded on file?! These are things that, if forced on the general population, would cause civil war! And you defend them because "it's part of the sacrifice to serve your country?" These things are NOT NECESSARY TO THE FUNCTIONING OF OUR MILITARY! We got along fine in wartime before, without DNA databases. What, it's that important that we be able to identify remains? We identified remains in the past without having to keep everyone's DNA on file. And we're over there fighting a war against a guy who everyone says does NOT have N.B.C. weapons, and yet our troops have to take unapproved vaccines that are said to have sickened people. Hmm.
As far as the body piercing example goes -- I don't care about it because I want tattoos and body piercings, I care about it because it's an example of the over-control over the lives of enlisted people.
Our military seems keen on forcing people to surrender their humanity and individuality in order to serve, and the simple fact is, that is the largest factor that keeps me from being willing to serve. And I see it as sick that the military insists on this even when it does not appear to me to be necessary for the functioning of the military.
Be sickened if you want to. This is how I feel. What you are defending is the loss of freedom for those who stand to defend it. That's a whole lot more sick.
-Jeffrey
-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"
"It is pretty cowardice that they wear black masks and never have the balls to show their faces,, "
Unlike the SWAT teams and special forces people all over the world who wear masks or refuse to be identified by the media.
The mask doesn't make them cowards Sarge, its their actions.
Unlike the SWAT teams and special forces people all over the world who wear masks or refuse to be identified by the media.
The mask doesn't make them cowards Sarge, its their actions.
--------------------
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
yes.
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