School massacre

[mr2mk1g 10]

Crap. The hostage takers started shooting and the soldiers had to go in…

The report below suggests 100+ dead and 400 wounded. This only just happened so expect updates on figures and details.

On top of that - they didn't even get all the hostage takers in the process: "Rebels fled with soldiers in pursuit." The fighting's still going on as I post this!

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=576635§ion=news

[chuckbrown 0]

Pretty f***ing pathetic. My understanding was that the Russians were trying to recover the bodies of those killed on the first day when they got into a firefight with the insurgents. The insurgents then detonated the explosives in the gymnasium where the children were held. The explosions blew the roof in killing most of the children. The Russians are still fighting some of the insurgents in surrounding buildings. Sad story.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Yeah, it's still pretty confused. Reuters are currently reporting that it kicked off when the insurgents started fireing on the kids when some tried to escape. Faced with that you can understand why they went in... still bad ju ju.

[Steel 0]

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Yeah, it's still pretty confused. Reuters are currently reporting that it kicked off when the insurgents started fireing on the kids when some tried to escape. Faced with that you can understand why they went in... still bad ju ju.

yeah, the Chechnyans were tired of hearing that the terrorist suicide bomber problem was always middle eastern men so now they added middle Eastern women.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Botellines 0]

Fuck.

[turtlespeed 220]

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Fuck.

Yeah -

It brings to mind a saying - The more things change - the more they stay the same."

Sad though -as the population increases - the abilities for so called humas to commit atrocities for a belief they have becomes exponentially greater.

*sigh*

what do you do? What CAN you do?

All I can think of is to bring a version of freedom and liberty to the world, and educate the masses.

Hopefully that will help.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[PhreeZone 20]

>All I can think of is to bring a version of freedom and liberty to the world, and educate the masses.

Was'nt that the thought of the rest of the world after Ruby Ridge and Waco?

Not much to say about this situation except that its horrible

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jazzjumper 0]

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Was'nt that the thought of the rest of the world after Ruby Ridge and Waco?

Yep, regardless of who is in power, bad things happen in the world. Those are dark moments in US history.

The school massacre is an atrocity in any religion, to any country, to any way of thinking. It's barbaric, cowardly, and senseless.

No matter how good she looks, someone, somewhere is
sick of her shit!

[Skyrad 0]

More like cluster fuck

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[wmw999 2,444]

Here is a group (the kidnappers) where I think I might feel quite comfortable saying "kill them all."

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Push 0]

Being Russian, I have been seething in anger the entire day. This is almost worse than 9/11 in the sense that they explicitly targeted school children.

All I can say is that people like this are not people at all, they are animals. In Israel I remember taking the bus to school. Buses were packed with 50 or so children every morning, and there were hundreds of buses. Cars were a lot less common than they are around here. If the terrorists wanted to, they could have killed uncountable numbers of children in Israel. They did not do this, not even during the black week, because they understood that there are lines they should not cross.

I can now say that there is an ape that looks like a human that I would not hesitate to kill. If Putin is ready to take off his boxing gloves and exterminate the Chechen warlords, I want to volunteer.

As to the West, perhaps it's time to take this whole war on terror thing seriously, and help other countries that are fighting terrorism? If this would have happened in the US, borders would have been immediately closed, Chechnya would have been invaded with overwhelming force that includes tanks and airforce in maybe a month from today, every person with a gun in their hand killed and all villages under warlord control occupied or burned. Just like Afghanistan.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Mad47 0]

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If this would have happened in the US, borders would have been immediately closed, Chechnya would have been invaded with overwhelming force that includes tanks and airforce in maybe a month from today, every person with a gun in their hand killed and all villages under warlord control occupied or burned. Just like Afghanistan.

I must disagree with that. The most difficult part is not invasion with overwhelming force. Dealing with the situation after the invasion has always been a problem. For example in Iraq, US forces have been sustaining more casualties after the major part of the military operation was successfully completed. Brits and Russians had the same problem in Afghanistan in past.
The war with terrorists is totally different from any 'normal' war. It is extremely difficult to spot someone who plans to blow himself and take a few soldiers or civilians out since those people usually do not look any different from the others. Yes, you can take over their country, destroy some of their bases and spot and terminate their bank accounts. However, these people and their organizations are extremely mobile and their sick minds are always creative. Using commercial jets as weapons, targeting school children what's coming next?
The fact that nearly half of hostage takers appeared to be hired guns of Arabic origin clearly demonstrate that the Chechen problem is more than just poor people fighting for their independence with evil Russian government.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Pretty f***ing pathetic. My understanding was that the Russians were trying to recover the bodies of those killed on the first day when they got into a firefight with the insurgents. The insurgents then detonated the explosives in the gymnasium where the children were held. The explosions blew the roof in killing most of the children. The Russians are still fighting some of the insurgents in surrounding buildings. Sad story.

Could you imagine if they had a John Kerry running that country? It'd be all, "Let's talk this out," with a bunch of psychopathic pieces of shit who know nothing but violence.

I believe that the only way to deal with such terrorists is to exterminate them with extreme prejudice, without holding back. When people sink down to the point where they kill schoolchildren like this -- WHAT FUCKING ASSHOLE IN THE WORLD WILL CLAIM SOMEONE IS WRONG TO SET OUT TO UTTERLY DESTROY EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THE ATTACK?! What if the Russians sent some of their troops in to take over Chechen schools or hospitals or something and execute the children there? Is that how they want this fucking thing fought? GOOD. Let's do that.

As it is, people say that it would be "genocide" to go into areas like Chechnya or Iraq and just blast away at whoever you find there, via guilt-by-association or something. I say it's hardly genocide when you have been given no choice but to view an entire people as a sworn enemy that vows your complete destruction! You do what they FORCE you to do!

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Here is a group (the kidnappers) where I think I might feel quite comfortable saying "kill them all."

Wendy W.

But you are sure to have shitheads saying, "No, they still deserve a trial and life in prison! We can't let ourselves be like they are!" and all that related bullshit. The talk of people who want to die at the hands of shitbags like these terrorists. You know, the "reason-with-them" crowd.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Botellines 0]

I agree with Wendy, and i assure you you will find no one who thinks that those fuckers do not deserve to die right away in this forum. About that I am with you.
However you may find some resistance to nuke chechenya and killing 99% of people who has nothing to do with and 1% who has links to terrorism.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I must disagree with that. The most difficult part is not invasion with overwhelming force. Dealing with the situation after the invasion has always been a problem. For example in Iraq, US forces have been sustaining more casualties after the major part of the military operation was successfully completed.

Well, that all depends on just how far you take it.
If you decide that well, the people in area A want to destroy us utterly, and if we don't kill them, they will keep trying; if we go in there, kill some of them (the ones most obviously behind the attacks) we will anger their survivors, who will continue to kill us and our children; so maybe we should just go in there, exterminate ALL who live there, and just make the place our own. That eliminates the challenges that come with trying to occupy a place that contains people who don't welcome you, like the U.S. is dealing with in Iraq.

I think it is intellectually disingenuous to act as though there never comes a time when your enemy must be viewed as sufficienty rabid as to need to be put down entirely. It's too easy to call that genocide; it is not. It is survival against an enemy that will drive itself extinct in its efforts to eradicate you... and there is not a thing wrong with it if you chose it only because it was the last resort open to you. When your enemy drives you to eradicate him, he has only himself to blame. That's about where it stands with Russia and Chechnya, I think.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[crozby 0]

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I believe that the only way to deal with such terrorists is to exterminate them with extreme prejudice, without holding back.

Do you think doing that would have resulted in more or less than 300 deaths + 700 injured?

[TomAiello 26]

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I believe that the only way to deal with such terrorists is to exterminate them with extreme prejudice, without holding back.

Do you think doing that would have resulted in more or less than 300 deaths + 700 injured?

I don't think you can analyze an incident like this solely as an isolated incident. It is important to also consider what effect your actions will have on the likelihood of such an event ocurring in the future.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Duckwater 0]

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I don't think you can analyze an incident like this solely as an isolated incident. It is important to also consider what effect your actions will have on the likelihood of such an event ocurring in the future.

Extremely intelligent and futuristic mode of analasis, Tom.

I see the lack of this attitude that a little sacrafice now, will pay big dividends later all to common.

Lawsuits are a prime example. Most major companies will pay a frivilous claim to make it go away because it would cost more to fight it.

If they started fighting these, and making these phone book lawyers actually go to court and all the related expenses, they would stop. You would have high legal fees for a while but these ambulance chasers could never afford to spend the time and money to truly fight a court battle

In the long run, you are way ahead.

I don't know the details of this sickening incident, but Terrorist organizations worldwide just took a BIG hit. They lost a whole lot of sympathy. All Islamic nations are condeming the attack and, I pray that this can unite the world in the fight against radicals like this.

I heard that many children were shot in the back..............

Mike

[crozby 0]

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I don't think you can analyze an incident like this solely as an isolated incident. It is important to also consider what effect your actions will have on the likelihood of such an event ocurring in the future.

In this case I can't see the Russians acheiving any kind of peace in Chechnya by taking a "we don't negotiate with terrorists" stance. If your enemy is prepared to die for it's cause and it can gather endless recruits then getting tough just gets your people killed.

The only way I can see to ensure that this tragedy doesn't happen again is to go for a political solution of some kind.

[miked10270 0]

I must admit to some bias... Ihave never met a Chechen that I liked!

Admittedly, they suffered after WWII when Stalin effectively deported themTo MOFN, Well east of the Caucusus, and it was only post Stalin that they moved back to their homeland.

That said, this is one of the very few occasions where Stalin perhaps didn't go far enough! The "native" Chechens have an abiding and inhuman hatred of Russians, and this is a "race war" in the making.

As such, I would support Vladimir Putin in the course of action he is surely contemplating.

My own view of Stalin has always been that he was a psycopath dictator... At a time when psychopath dictators were something of a fashion... And... "If you have a Hitler at the gates of your capital, then pray that you have a Stalin to oppose him". In effect, it takes an inhuman monster to destroy an inhuman monster, in the same way that it takes a diamond to scratch a diamond.

After what has happened in Russia in the last 2 months, who would be surprised at Putin adopting the diktat of Ethnic Cleansing?

My own bias makes my reaction to this one of "Ho - Hum".

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I don't think you can analyze an incident like this solely as an isolated incident. It is important to also consider what effect your actions will have on the likelihood of such an event ocurring in the future.

In this case I can't see the Russians acheiving any kind of peace in Chechnya by taking a "we don't negotiate with terrorists" stance. If your enemy is prepared to die for it's cause and it can gather endless recruits then getting tough just gets your people killed.

The only way I can see to ensure that this tragedy doesn't happen again is to go for a political solution of some kind.

So if you "negotiate," or "compromise," or "capitulate," and give them, say, their own chunk of land or something, whatever it is that's got them all riled, why would you think they wouldn't decide that any time they want more from you they could just start up with more terrorist attacks??

I mean, to let it work means you are telling them that they have found the secret to getting what they want from you!!

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[skydyvr 0]

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The only way I can see to ensure that this tragedy doesn't happen again is to go for a political solution of some kind.

Yes, let's compromise with the terrorists!

What could possibly be wrong with that?

. . =(_8^(1)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I say it's hardly genocide when you have been given no choice but to view an entire people as a sworn enemy that vows your complete destruction! You do what they FORCE you to do!"

The Russians have been pounding the fuck out of Chechnya for years man. Its precisely their 'carpet bomb the fuckers' approach to suppressing the Chechens that has resulted in this tragedy. Compounded in no small way by recent election fixing by Moscow.

Don't get me wrong, the people that did this are vile, indefensible.

But how did they become so desparate?

The iron fist that everyone seems to be advocating has been applied to this region for years, and its clearly not working. It didn't work in Northern Ireland, its not working in Palestine, it doesn't work in Afghanistan, its clearly unsuccessful in Iraq.

Right now, I don't have another way, but people need to be dealing with the cause, not the symptom.

"when you have been given no choice but to view an entire people as a sworn enemy that vows your complete destruction! You do what they FORCE you to do! "

I'm sure these fuckers are using the exact same justification for their actions.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[PeteH 0]

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The "native" Chechens have an abiding and inhuman hatred of Russians, and this is a "race war" in the making.

If that's the case, then why don't Russians give Chechens their sovereignty?