Arguments for (or against) the existence of God

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

Except that I have nothing to gain. A con man seeks gain.

You find value in converting others into your cult.

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[Coreeece 2]

DanG

You say right now that megachurches can lobby for political reform by setting up taxable organizations. How would that change if the church itself were taxed? They wouldn't have to bother setting up a shell corporation. Big whoop.

You're not factoring in all the other medium to mega-sized churches that otherwise wouldn't care to have a political voice and go through the trouble to lobby - I'm sure that would all change if they were to be taxed.

DanG

How does that hurt the small churches? Right now, according to you, they can't lobby at all. If they were taxed, they could lobby just like the big churches. Your reasoning doesn't make sense.

Small, legit churches that are minding their own business obviously don't care to lobby, nor would they. I know some churches that don't even take up a collection - they just have a box by the door as you leave to give as you please - and it would be amiss if taxes caused these churches to close their doors or deter others from building them. It would be a gross violation of the protection provided by the separation of church and state.

Personally, I don't really care about religious lobbying - I just find it interesting that you would bolster an environment that would promote it, especially given that you were the one whingeing about how you want religion out of your government/laws. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

jcd11235

we're all born atheists.

I could agree that we're all born agnostic given that we don't know anything at that time.

If we were then left to wander around independent of any positive or negative external influence of religion, I think we would ultimately - on our own - begin to conceptualize a very generalized idea of what we might consider God.

How you would proceed from there and define God beyond that is another story - and I don't think it's wrong to criticize that definition as long as you know what you're criticizing. Some of the ignorance found in arguments against Christianity rivals that of uneducated creationists arguing against evolution.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[RonD1120 62]

Lame response, as kallend would say.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

My testimony is truth, take it or leave it. I have no vested interest in your acceptance.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

*** we're all born atheists.

I could agree that we're all born agnostic given that we don't know anything at that time.

Being agnostic implies one has considered the possibility of a god. We're born atheists.

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If we were then left to wander around independent of any positive or negative external influence of religion, I think we would ultimately - on our own - begin to conceptualize a very generalized idea of what we might consider God.

Only in the absence of a rigorous application of logic and reason, such as what is provided by the scientific method.

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[gowlerk 2,251]

RonD1120

My testimony is truth, take it or leave it. I have no vested interest in your acceptance.

I know. It is your truth. But the facts remain. I believe in your belief, and you are not wrong.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

Lame response, as kallend would say.

So you're telling us that the only thing you value in life is money?

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[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

My testimony is truth, take it or leave it. I have no vested interest in your acceptance.

You may find your testimony truthy, but it is not truth.

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[billvon 3,073]

>Whether the prophet is Jesus, Mohamed, Moses, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, Charles
>Manson, or Ron L Hubbard they all have one thing in common. They are all lies made
>up by humans.

I wouldn't say that. Many of the above prophets were merely stating what they believed, which by definition is not a lie.

[DanG 1]

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You're not factoring in all the other medium to mega-sized churches that otherwise wouldn't care to have a political voice and go through the trouble to lobby - I'm sure that would all change if they were to be taxed.

You brought up lobbying. I have no idea what that has to do with anything. Right now religions are prohibited from engaging in political activities because they are tax free. They are tax free because it was thought that taxing them would violate the 1st Amendment. Many churches, however, take unfair advantage of this tax free status to do things which clearly do not have any religious underpinning, such as enriching pastors and buying up land. If a small, medium, or megachurch were doing nothing but social activities, and no one was making money in the process, then they should not be taxed. But wait, we already have laws that say organizations that do nothing but social activities and don't make money aren't taxed. Churches of all sizes should either qualify as that type of organization, or they should be taxed.

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Personally, I don't really care about religious lobbying - I just find it interesting that you would bolster an environment that would promote it, especially given that you were the one whingeing about how you want religion out of your government/laws. . .

You brought up lobbying. I think it is a total strawman, but I'm trying to see it from your perspective. I don't care about religious lobbying either. If religions want to lobby, let them. So long as they are taxed just like every other lobbying organization.

- Dan G

[wmw999 2,544]

There's a big difference between the "one path" and he "many paths" theists of all flavors. So your experience is no more what Christianity (or any religion) than a reflection of your church.

Now I'm sure Ron just knows that we're all going to hell, but, ya know, if there isn't a god, there's no such thing, and if there is, we probably have no idea what it's actually all about.

We tell young children that babies come out of mommy's tummy. I have a feeling that if there are any divinely-inspired writings, they're no more accurate than that.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Coreeece 2]

DanG

You brought up lobbying. I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

You said that you want religion out of government - but taxing religious institutions would give them more political influence. Lobbying is only but one form of that influence.

DanG

Many churches, however, take unfair advantage of this tax free status

I agree.

DanG

Many churches, however, take unfair advantage of this tax free status to do things which clearly do not have any religious underpinning, such as enriching pastors.

Ha, enriching pastors? I'm not trying to defend them, but many of these megachurch pastors don't even pull a salary from the church. They make their money off books and speaking engagements - and even if they were taking a salary, they'd still be subject to income tax just like everyone else.

It's interesting how you get all indignant over "enriching pastors," but don't express any contempt for organizations like planned parenthood that not only take government funding but charge for their services(unlike churches) and then accept medicaid and other government funding on top of that - and then "enrich" themselves with $500,000 salaries - must be nice to just write-off obscene profits as a salary.

DanG

I'm trying to see it from your perspective

My concern was mainly with small churches, but Billvon already addressed that.

DanG

I don't care about religious lobbying either. If religions want to lobby, let them.

Oh, I thought you said you wanted religion out of government - my bad.

DanG

So long as they are taxed just like every other lobbying organization.

They are.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[ibx 2]

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I don't think it has as much to do with education as it does with the stigma that has been placed on faith. It's really no different than any other type of bigotry against people for the way they were born and choose to live their lives - why do you think we have record rates of homosexuals?

Are you saying that there are more homosexuals because there is less bigotry against them?
I don't hink I understand what exactly you mean with this?

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There are plenty of highly educated people that maintain their faith and have a net positive affect on society.

undoubtedly, as long as they keep their faith to themselves nobody cares. It's when they start using their faith to push things like anti homosexuality where the problem starts.

[DanG 1]

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You said that you want religion out of government - but taxing religious institutions would give them more political influence. Lobbying is only but one form of that influence.

I think I see the problem. You don't understand what I meant by religion getting out of government. I don't mean that religious people or institutions can't participate like everyone else, I mean get actual religion out of government. Get rid of "In God We Trust", get rid of "one nation under God", get rid of Ten Commandments statues, official Christmas and Easter events, and any religious text in legislation. I don't think religious people should be barred from the government, just actual religion.

Maybe this misunderstanding is why you think there is a war on Christians. We don't think you shouldn't be allowed to vote or hold office. We just don't think once you get to office you should be allowed to make us all worship your deity, even in subtle ways.

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Ha, enriching pastors? I'm not trying to defend them, but many of these megachurch pastors don't even pull a salary from the church. They make their money off books and speaking engagements - and even if they were taking a salary, they'd still be subject to income tax just like everyone else.

Um, no. The Megachurch of Our Lady of the Eternal Dollar does not pay taxes like everyone else.

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It's interesting how you get all indignant over "enriching pastors," but don't express any contempt for organizations like planned parenthood that not only take government funding but charge for their services(unlike churches) and then accept medicaid and other government funding on top of that - and then "enrich" themselves with $500,000 salaries - must be nice to just write-off obscene profits as a salary.

Total non-sequitur, but okay. Planned Parenthood gets paid for its services just like any other medical provider. Some of that payment comes from the government in the form of Medicare and Medicaid. Getting government funding as payment for services has nothing to do with paying taxes. I would have no problem if churches were structured like any other non-profit for tax purposes. Assuming, of course, that they followed all the non-profit rules.

- Dan G

[DJL 235]

Since I saw this thread start it's been fun to check in just to see how far towards nowhere the discussion would go.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[SkyDekker 1,465]

RonD1120

******That is called personal testimony. It is offered as an example to those in dire need. It is the path to hope where none exists.

That would suggest you as the confidence artist exploiting those in need.

Except that I have nothing to gain. A con man seeks gain.

You gain a sense of belonging. You have already demonstrated a strong need to belong.

[rehmwa 2]

DJL

Since I saw this thread start it's been fun to check in just to see how far towards nowhere the discussion would go.

It's making great progress

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Coreeece 2]

DanG

I don't think religious people should be barred from the government, just actual religion.

Ok, fair enough, but you also mentioned how you wanted to get rid of christian based laws - what do you think christian lobbyists are lobbying for?

DanG

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Ha, enriching pastors? I'm not trying to defend them, but many of these megachurch pastors don't even pull a salary from the church. They make their money off books and speaking engagements - and even if they were taking a salary, they'd still be subject to income tax just like everyone else.

Um, no. The Megachurch of Our Lady of the Eternal Dollar does not pay taxes like everyone else.

Ok, if this is a reference to the Catholic Church, then I agree. Priests are different than evangelical/protestant pastors in that the church itself provides for the priest given their vow of "poverty," lol.

But an evangelical/protestant pastor is still subject to income tax whether he draws a salary from the church or makes his money off book sales.

DanG

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It's interesting how you get all indignant over "enriching pastors," but don't express any contempt for organizations like planned parenthood that not only take government funding but charge for their services(unlike churches) and then accept medicaid and other government funding on top of that - and then "enrich" themselves with $500,000 salaries - must be nice to just write-off obscene profits as a salary.

Total non-sequitur, but okay. Planned Parenthood gets paid for its services just like any other medical provider. Some of that payment comes from the government in the form of Medicare and Medicaid. Getting government funding as payment for services has nothing to do with paying taxes. I would have no problem if churches were structured like any other non-profit for tax purposes. Assuming, of course, that they followed all the non-profit rules.

We weren't really talking about the organizations themselves as much as we were talking about enriching the people that work in these organizations.

You seem to have a problem with a pastor making a bunch of money even tho they're not taking any government funding, nor are they charging for their services - and practically every dollar they receive is given willingly.

But then you don't seem to have a problem with paying outrageous salaries to those that do take government funding and do charge for their services - and probably unreasonable charges at that.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jcd11235 0]

Coreeece

nor are they charging for their services

Just so long as everyone keeps putting their tithe in the collection plate.

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[Coreeece 2]

ibx

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I don't think it has as much to do with education as it does with the stigma that has been placed on faith. It's really no different than any other type of bigotry against people for the way they were born and choose to live their lives - why do you think we have record rates of homosexuals?

Are you saying that there are more homosexuals because there is less bigotry against them?

No, just more visible.

ibx

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There are plenty of highly educated people that maintain their faith and have a net positive affect on society.

undoubtedly, as long as they keep their faith to themselves nobody cares. It's when they start using their faith to push things like anti homosexuality where the problem starts.

See, this is part of that emerging stigma that's being placed on Christianity. You dismiss any positive affect that Christianity may have on society and ignore the billions of dollars in charitable events that Christians undertake around the world every year. Instead you focus on anti-homosexuality, while your colleagues around the internet focus on and how christians are hateful, uneducated bigots with sloped foreheads, lol. . .

I mean seriously, who on the fence wants to be associated with that, even if in the end, they can't help but to identify with the virtue of Christianity?

We're creating an environment that is essentially pushing Christianity back down to it's "underground roots." We see this especially in the scientific field, where scientists feel compelled to hide their religious views out of fear of being ridiculed or losing credibility - and in some cases - maybe even losing their job.

Now I know some people see this as a good thing - that if we can overcome religion, it will be for the betterment of society - but often these are the same people talking about tolerance, compromise, and creating an environment where people can make their own decision rather than being forced into the group that's viewed more favorably.

It shows that these people really aren't about tolerance and compromise, but rather pushing their agenda under the guise of tolerance and compromise.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[ibx 2]

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No, just more visible.

Do you think this is a bad thing?

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See, this is part of that emerging stigma that's being placed on Christianity. You dismiss any positive affect that Christianity may have on society and ignore the billions of dollars in charitable events that Christians undertake around the world every year. Instead you focus on anti-homosexuality, while your colleagues around the internet focus on and how christians are hateful, uneducated bigots with sloped foreheads, lol. . .

To be very honest, I simply don't see a lot of the positives that Christianity has today. They are very selective with to whom they give their money. Also billions are spent on things like lobbying to protect their pedophile preists. http://www.businessinsider.com/r-as-pope-visit-nears-us-sex-victims-say-church-remains-obstacle-to-justice-2015-9?IR=T

The mormon church spent millions to lobby politics to end gay marriage like in CA. They fight sex education, science education and education in general(Banning certain books for example).

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I mean seriously, who on the fence wants to be associated with that, even if in the end, they can't help but to identify with the virtue of Christianity?

Anybody that is tired of the shit that is done in the name of religion.

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We're creating an environment that is essentially pushing Christianity back down to it's "underground roots." We see this especially in the scientific field, where scientists feel compelled to hide their religious views out of fear of being ridiculed or losing credibility - and in some cases - maybe even losing their job.

Oh my... You mean like homosexuals or divorced people losing their jobs in church institutions. You shouldn't be a scientist if your core beliefs are contradictionary to everything your field stands for. You can't be a biologist and believe in creationism for example.

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Now I know some people see this as a good thing - that if we can overcome religion, it will be for the betterment of society - but often these are the same people talking about tolerance, compromise, and creating an environment where people can make their own decision rather than being forced into the group that's viewed more favorably.

It shows that these people really aren't about tolerance and compromise, but rather pushing their agenda under the guise of tolerance and compromise.

You still don't seem to understand that nobody wants you to stop worshiping or believing whatever you wish in your private time and space. You should not be able to use government institutions to push your belief on others, yet this happens in schools and courts and on money and so on and so on. In science their simply is no room for compromise.

[Coreeece 2]

QED - Thanks for your honesty.

No further questions. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jcd11235 0]

ibx

In science there simply is no room for compromise.

Exactly.

Religion is about embracing faith. Science is about rejecting faith and applying logic and reason.

On cannot be a good religious person and a good scientist.

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[billvon 3,073]

>On cannot be a good religious person and a good scientist.

Sure you can. The list of devout scientists is long. Stephen Gould wrote an excellent essay about how many modern scientists do just that.

(You can also go to Comic-con and be a good scientist, even though Superman couldn't really spin the world backwards and make time go backwards as well.)