Darius11 12 #76 September 13, 2004 At first I thought about making a long post and arguing but I decided not too. The existence of God is very personal. That is the ultimate question. For me there is no doubt there is a god. I see proof every day. I can’t explain them to any one who has chosen not to see it. It is also a choice. To believe or not to believeI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #77 September 13, 2004 Quote At first I thought about making a long post and arguing but I decided not too. The existence of God is very personal. That is the ultimate question. For me there is no doubt there is a god. I see proof every day. I can’t explain them to any one who has chosen not to see it. It is also a choice. To believe or not to believe Darius...I agree. I haven't felt like posting here (this time ) for the same reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #78 September 13, 2004 Quote"we can't understand it" Exactly. Like when we didn't understand lightning, so that was Thors hammer striking the anvil and creating noise and sparks. Things we don't understand. Very simple answers for very complex questions. Not sure what your point is, but I'm not saying we should seek answers to the toughest questions. I just don't know if it's possible for us to understand something, anything, that never had a beginning. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #79 September 13, 2004 QuoteI just don't know if it's possible for us to understand something, anything, that never had a beginning. I believe that God is apart from, in control of, and not bound by time. I also believe that God created "time" as a medium for us to exist. An existence with limits. One without limits, I dare say, is rather incomprehensible to humans. We'll....maybe not for Kallend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #80 September 13, 2004 QuoteQuote"we can't understand it" Exactly. Like when we didn't understand lightning, so that was Thors hammer striking the anvil and creating noise and sparks. Things we don't understand. Very simple answers for very complex questions. Not sure what your point is, but I'm not saying we should seek answers to the toughest questions. I just don't know if it's possible for us to understand something, anything, that never had a beginning. The "what causes lighting?" was just an example of something that mystified primitive people. The cause of lightning was a complex question, so someone provided an a very simple answer that related to everyday life. Thor was the god du jour. Everybody was happy. Then someone asks "What created the universe?", another complex mystifying question. Someone said, "God created it". how do I know when to plant/harvest? What causes rain? plagues of locusts? God is punishing you. disease? God is testing you. insanity? Evil spirits Religion provides simple answers to complex questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #81 September 13, 2004 Nothing recent but in ancient China and Japan the Buddhist did do quite a bit of killing of those that disagreed. Not a lot, but it happened. Buddhism also does not really worship a deity (which is why the debate as whether it is a philosopy or a religion). As such, they could not do anything 'in the name of God.' Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #82 September 13, 2004 QuoteThe "what causes lighting?" was just an example of something that mystified primitive people. The cause of lightning was a complex question, so someone provided an a very simple answer that related to everyday life. Thor was the god du jour. Everybody was happy. Then someone asks "What created the universe?", another complex mystifying question. Someone said, "God created it". how do I know when to plant/harvest? What causes rain? plagues of locusts? God is punishing you. disease? God is testing you. insanity? Evil spirits Religion provides simple answers to complex questions. C.S. Lewis calls this brand of religion “Christianity and Water (i.e. doesn’t amount to much).” The view that there is a good God, in control, and everything is alright. It leaves out all the detail and complexity behind it. Some are comfortable with that, it gives them a warm fuzzy inside, and they “feel” comfortable and safe. Others aren’t content with that and I think that is good. “Nothing real is simple.” Lewis gives the “simple” example of a table. The table may appear to be a simple structure until you break it down into its molecular or sub-molecular components. I believe the same holds true with Christianity as well as other religions. You may compare religion to what “simply” mystified early man with regards to lightening, fire, and the like but that would be what C.S. Lewis would call a “little boy’s philosophy.” There’s a whole lot more to it than that. Religion shouldn’t stifle one’s drive or desire to understand the truth. Just because a particular question may be unanswerable doesn’t mean that one should quit seeking to find the answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #83 September 13, 2004 Quote Just because a particular question may be unanswerable doesn’t mean that one should quit seeking to find the answer. That is my point, I have the answers that religion provides. They have nothing to do with a spiritual figure. God didn't create the universe, it has always been there. When you die, you're just dead, you don't go to heaven. There is no spiritual figure that people can placate by praying, or burning sheep on an altar, to get what they desire (comfort, protection, guidance, prophesy). Why am I here? There is no "master plan". Those are the most popular questions that I hear people going to religion to answer. Most people are not comfortable with those answers. That is what I believe is the truth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #84 September 13, 2004 QuoteThings we don't understand. Very simple answers for very complex questions. ... Religion provides simple answers for complex questions I understand your point of view, but with all due respect, I tried to answer a complex question with some sort of reason/logic to point to intelligent design. These answers are in no way 'simple' however they do not discount religion because of their complexity. Of course there are many things I don't understand, but it doesn't mean to stop seeking answers. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #85 September 13, 2004 QuoteThose are the most popular questions that I hear people going to religion to answer. Most people are not comfortable with those answers. That is what I believe is the truth. Those sound more like statements rather than questions. Either way, “this” sounds simple: QuoteGod didn't create the universe, it has always been there. When you die, you're just dead, you don't go to heaven. There is no spiritual figure that people can placate by praying, or burning sheep on an altar, to get what they desire (comfort, protection, guidance, prophesy). Why am I here? There is no "master plan". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #86 September 13, 2004 QuoteThat is my point, I have the answers that religion provides. They have nothing to do with a spiritual figure. Do you really? If so, I’m impressed and you’re much better than I am. It really boggles my mind. Then again, I am originally from Alabama. Paraphrasing C.S. Lewis again: Doctrines are not God. Religion is like a roadmap. Sure, you can experience God without the map just like you can be in wonder and awe of the ocean while walking on the beach. But if you want to reach an objective like a distant island or another continent, you’d better use a map. “This is just why vague religion – all about feeling God in nature, and so on – is so attractive. It is all thrills and no work: like watching the waves from the beach.” The map is based on the experiences of hundreds and thousands of people who have also had experiences with God. Mistakes they’ve already made and discoveries that they’ve already found out. I thought this was cool: “But you will not get to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way, and you will not get eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or music. Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea. Nor will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #87 September 13, 2004 Ok, I'll rephrase them as questions. Where did the universe come from? What happens when I die? Why do bad things happen to good people? What can I do to protect myself from bad things? What will happen in the future? Why am I here? When people say that religon answers questions, I ask, "What questions?" These are the ones that trouble most people. I posted my answers above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #88 September 13, 2004 Quote“But you will not get to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way, and you will not get eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or music. Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea. Nor will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map.” People struggle to exist. They want "eternal life", they want a soul or "essence" that will go on beyond death. They fear non-existence. I don't believe in a soul or eternal life. Also, the map is to a goal. I don't see it as a good analogy because I don't see anything to be gained in religion. It does not provide a goal to be reached. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #89 September 13, 2004 QuotePeople struggle to exist. They want "eternal life", they want a soul or "essence" that will go on beyond death. They fear non-existence. I don't believe in a soul or eternal life. Now this would be an interesting thread... is there 'eternal life' or a soul after death? Chad and I have discussed this a lot. He is certain that once you're dead, that's it. Nothing happens after that. I am undecided. I find comfort in the thought that somehow those I have loved and have lost are still with me in some way, still loving me somehow. If I lost Chad, knowing he believes as he does, it would be much harder to cope with. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, so in that facet, we do go on after death, but is it consciousness? Probably not. I don't like the idea of non-existance after death, but accept that it is probably reality. And can it be possible to miss life if you don't exist to miss it to begin with? No. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #90 September 13, 2004 QuoteI don't believe in a soul or eternal life. Based on what? QuoteAlso, the map is to a goal. I don't see it as a good analogy because I don't see anything to be gained in religion. It does not provide a goal to be reached. I can’t speak for all religions but Christianity has the goal of achieving eternal life and a relationship with your creator. Something beyond physical death. Something more worthwhile than just pushing up daisies when they stick you in the ground. Sincerely, if you “don’t see anything to be gained in religion, maybe you’ve not thought about it deeply enough. Not an accusation. Just a thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #91 September 13, 2004 QuoteSincerely, if you “don’t see anything to be gained in religion", maybe you’ve not thought about it deeply enough. My mom was a Baptist sunday school teacher for decades, my dad was a deacon in the Methodist church. My sister does some missionary work. I took comparative religions in college. My ex-wife was a Jehovahs Witness for 8 years. I've discussed astrology, Scientology, astral projection, Buddhism, and 30 other religions/psuedo-religions. All that said, I tend to think about religion in terms of: What do people get from it? How would they live without it? Why do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? What good is created by religions? What damage is done by religions? I find that there is a large number of emotional needs that are solved by religion. This is the reason that most 12-step programs involve a "higher-power" part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #92 September 13, 2004 QuoteWhy do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? This is definitely one of the more interesting questions. My own opinion...people don't like to think for themselves. It requires work, and sometimes it causes unpleasant thoughts. It's really easy to have someone else tell you and your kids what's right and wrong instead of trying to come up with your own morals.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #93 September 13, 2004 Actually, the morals are easy. Read the 10 commandments, done. Re-read once a year. What are we talking about? Don't steal? Do we need to re-discuss this? Nope. I'm talking day-to-day life. The disciples were commercial fishermen. One (Paul, I believe) was a tent-maker. Real life. A guy with no job, no mortgage, and no kids has no real-world problems. I don't want them telling my family how to live, work, play. A house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #94 September 13, 2004 QuoteActually, the morals are easy. Then, why are there so many interpretations of what the morals are/should be? QuoteA house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. This I will also disagree with. Preachers are often called at all times of the day/night to basically be a person's counselor. They do lots of things that I wouldn't want to do and consider work (ie, my brother's minister married him and his wife, and he showed up when both of his kids were born. He does that for everyone in their church.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #95 September 13, 2004 QuoteAll that said, I tend to think about religion in terms of: What do people get from it? How would they live without it? Why do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? What good is created by religions? What damage is done by religions? I think some of this is the reason why many people reject their faith and churches fail. You’re correct in that misuse and abuse of the faith for selfish reasons can cause much damage. Many people are looking for what they can “get” out of their religion (or their church) instead of what they might “put” into it. Christianity is supposed to be about following the example set forth by Jesus. He was a “servant leader.” You should put God first, everyone else second, and yourself last. Leaders of churches are entrusted to do the same (The same holds true for politicians or anyone in a leadership position). Of course, they don’t always do that. They’re human too. During The Last Supper, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples (usually the responsibility of the lowest servant in a person’s house). Peter rejected him at first claiming that he was unworthy. Jesus then said that Peter could take no part in him (referring to his coming sacrifice) unless he accepted. Jesus was setting the example for all of us to love one another more than ourselves. I think that the good that is taught in it is obvious. It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extend of his love. The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciple’s feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet? Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” Jesus answered, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean. When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John 13:1-17 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #96 September 13, 2004 So no proof or evidence yet, huh? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #97 September 13, 2004 QuoteReligion provides simple answers to complex questions. You're going to burn in hell for thinking like that! . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #98 September 13, 2004 QuoteA house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. A guy with no job, no mortgage, and no kids has no real-world problems. I don't want them telling my family how to live, work, play. The 11:00am sermon on Sunday is a very small part of a Preacher’s job. From what I’ve seen of the ones that I’ve been associated with, they’re very busy people with a LOAD of responsibility. QuoteI'm talking day-to-day life. The disciples were commercial fishermen. One (Paul, I believe) was a tent-maker. Real life. Peter and his brother Andrew were fishermen. Paul was, in fact, a tentmaker by trade. He was also a Roman citizen, a soldier, a teacher, a Theologian, and a world traveler. Before his conversion, he was the primary persecutor of Christians. He was a hit-man who tracked them down and killed them. They all gave that up to follow Jesus and preach/teach the good news. That was a big job and a daunting task back then (and a very dangerous one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #99 September 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteReligion provides simple answers to complex questions. You're going to burn in hell for thinking like that! Nah, I'll be able to keep by feet cool by standing on a stack of television evangelists. I'll be so far from the fire that I'll need a coat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #100 September 13, 2004 QuoteSo no proof or evidence yet, huh? What's your standard of evidence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 26 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
happythoughts 0 #83 September 13, 2004 Quote Just because a particular question may be unanswerable doesn’t mean that one should quit seeking to find the answer. That is my point, I have the answers that religion provides. They have nothing to do with a spiritual figure. God didn't create the universe, it has always been there. When you die, you're just dead, you don't go to heaven. There is no spiritual figure that people can placate by praying, or burning sheep on an altar, to get what they desire (comfort, protection, guidance, prophesy). Why am I here? There is no "master plan". Those are the most popular questions that I hear people going to religion to answer. Most people are not comfortable with those answers. That is what I believe is the truth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #84 September 13, 2004 QuoteThings we don't understand. Very simple answers for very complex questions. ... Religion provides simple answers for complex questions I understand your point of view, but with all due respect, I tried to answer a complex question with some sort of reason/logic to point to intelligent design. These answers are in no way 'simple' however they do not discount religion because of their complexity. Of course there are many things I don't understand, but it doesn't mean to stop seeking answers. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #85 September 13, 2004 QuoteThose are the most popular questions that I hear people going to religion to answer. Most people are not comfortable with those answers. That is what I believe is the truth. Those sound more like statements rather than questions. Either way, “this” sounds simple: QuoteGod didn't create the universe, it has always been there. When you die, you're just dead, you don't go to heaven. There is no spiritual figure that people can placate by praying, or burning sheep on an altar, to get what they desire (comfort, protection, guidance, prophesy). Why am I here? There is no "master plan". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #86 September 13, 2004 QuoteThat is my point, I have the answers that religion provides. They have nothing to do with a spiritual figure. Do you really? If so, I’m impressed and you’re much better than I am. It really boggles my mind. Then again, I am originally from Alabama. Paraphrasing C.S. Lewis again: Doctrines are not God. Religion is like a roadmap. Sure, you can experience God without the map just like you can be in wonder and awe of the ocean while walking on the beach. But if you want to reach an objective like a distant island or another continent, you’d better use a map. “This is just why vague religion – all about feeling God in nature, and so on – is so attractive. It is all thrills and no work: like watching the waves from the beach.” The map is based on the experiences of hundreds and thousands of people who have also had experiences with God. Mistakes they’ve already made and discoveries that they’ve already found out. I thought this was cool: “But you will not get to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way, and you will not get eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or music. Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea. Nor will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #87 September 13, 2004 Ok, I'll rephrase them as questions. Where did the universe come from? What happens when I die? Why do bad things happen to good people? What can I do to protect myself from bad things? What will happen in the future? Why am I here? When people say that religon answers questions, I ask, "What questions?" These are the ones that trouble most people. I posted my answers above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #88 September 13, 2004 Quote“But you will not get to Newfoundland by studying the Atlantic that way, and you will not get eternal life by simply feeling the presence of God in flowers or music. Neither will you get anywhere by looking at maps without going to sea. Nor will you be very safe if you go to sea without a map.” People struggle to exist. They want "eternal life", they want a soul or "essence" that will go on beyond death. They fear non-existence. I don't believe in a soul or eternal life. Also, the map is to a goal. I don't see it as a good analogy because I don't see anything to be gained in religion. It does not provide a goal to be reached. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #89 September 13, 2004 QuotePeople struggle to exist. They want "eternal life", they want a soul or "essence" that will go on beyond death. They fear non-existence. I don't believe in a soul or eternal life. Now this would be an interesting thread... is there 'eternal life' or a soul after death? Chad and I have discussed this a lot. He is certain that once you're dead, that's it. Nothing happens after that. I am undecided. I find comfort in the thought that somehow those I have loved and have lost are still with me in some way, still loving me somehow. If I lost Chad, knowing he believes as he does, it would be much harder to cope with. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, so in that facet, we do go on after death, but is it consciousness? Probably not. I don't like the idea of non-existance after death, but accept that it is probably reality. And can it be possible to miss life if you don't exist to miss it to begin with? No. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #90 September 13, 2004 QuoteI don't believe in a soul or eternal life. Based on what? QuoteAlso, the map is to a goal. I don't see it as a good analogy because I don't see anything to be gained in religion. It does not provide a goal to be reached. I can’t speak for all religions but Christianity has the goal of achieving eternal life and a relationship with your creator. Something beyond physical death. Something more worthwhile than just pushing up daisies when they stick you in the ground. Sincerely, if you “don’t see anything to be gained in religion, maybe you’ve not thought about it deeply enough. Not an accusation. Just a thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #91 September 13, 2004 QuoteSincerely, if you “don’t see anything to be gained in religion", maybe you’ve not thought about it deeply enough. My mom was a Baptist sunday school teacher for decades, my dad was a deacon in the Methodist church. My sister does some missionary work. I took comparative religions in college. My ex-wife was a Jehovahs Witness for 8 years. I've discussed astrology, Scientology, astral projection, Buddhism, and 30 other religions/psuedo-religions. All that said, I tend to think about religion in terms of: What do people get from it? How would they live without it? Why do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? What good is created by religions? What damage is done by religions? I find that there is a large number of emotional needs that are solved by religion. This is the reason that most 12-step programs involve a "higher-power" part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #92 September 13, 2004 QuoteWhy do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? This is definitely one of the more interesting questions. My own opinion...people don't like to think for themselves. It requires work, and sometimes it causes unpleasant thoughts. It's really easy to have someone else tell you and your kids what's right and wrong instead of trying to come up with your own morals.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #93 September 13, 2004 Actually, the morals are easy. Read the 10 commandments, done. Re-read once a year. What are we talking about? Don't steal? Do we need to re-discuss this? Nope. I'm talking day-to-day life. The disciples were commercial fishermen. One (Paul, I believe) was a tent-maker. Real life. A guy with no job, no mortgage, and no kids has no real-world problems. I don't want them telling my family how to live, work, play. A house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vallerina 2 #94 September 13, 2004 QuoteActually, the morals are easy. Then, why are there so many interpretations of what the morals are/should be? QuoteA house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. This I will also disagree with. Preachers are often called at all times of the day/night to basically be a person's counselor. They do lots of things that I wouldn't want to do and consider work (ie, my brother's minister married him and his wife, and he showed up when both of his kids were born. He does that for everyone in their church.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #95 September 13, 2004 QuoteAll that said, I tend to think about religion in terms of: What do people get from it? How would they live without it? Why do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? What good is created by religions? What damage is done by religions? I think some of this is the reason why many people reject their faith and churches fail. You’re correct in that misuse and abuse of the faith for selfish reasons can cause much damage. Many people are looking for what they can “get” out of their religion (or their church) instead of what they might “put” into it. Christianity is supposed to be about following the example set forth by Jesus. He was a “servant leader.” You should put God first, everyone else second, and yourself last. Leaders of churches are entrusted to do the same (The same holds true for politicians or anyone in a leadership position). Of course, they don’t always do that. They’re human too. During The Last Supper, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples (usually the responsibility of the lowest servant in a person’s house). Peter rejected him at first claiming that he was unworthy. Jesus then said that Peter could take no part in him (referring to his coming sacrifice) unless he accepted. Jesus was setting the example for all of us to love one another more than ourselves. I think that the good that is taught in it is obvious. It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extend of his love. The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciple’s feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet? Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” Jesus answered, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean. When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John 13:1-17 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #96 September 13, 2004 So no proof or evidence yet, huh? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #97 September 13, 2004 QuoteReligion provides simple answers to complex questions. You're going to burn in hell for thinking like that! . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #98 September 13, 2004 QuoteA house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. A guy with no job, no mortgage, and no kids has no real-world problems. I don't want them telling my family how to live, work, play. The 11:00am sermon on Sunday is a very small part of a Preacher’s job. From what I’ve seen of the ones that I’ve been associated with, they’re very busy people with a LOAD of responsibility. QuoteI'm talking day-to-day life. The disciples were commercial fishermen. One (Paul, I believe) was a tent-maker. Real life. Peter and his brother Andrew were fishermen. Paul was, in fact, a tentmaker by trade. He was also a Roman citizen, a soldier, a teacher, a Theologian, and a world traveler. Before his conversion, he was the primary persecutor of Christians. He was a hit-man who tracked them down and killed them. They all gave that up to follow Jesus and preach/teach the good news. That was a big job and a daunting task back then (and a very dangerous one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #99 September 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteReligion provides simple answers to complex questions. You're going to burn in hell for thinking like that! Nah, I'll be able to keep by feet cool by standing on a stack of television evangelists. I'll be so far from the fire that I'll need a coat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #100 September 13, 2004 QuoteSo no proof or evidence yet, huh? What's your standard of evidence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 26 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
happythoughts 0 #91 September 13, 2004 QuoteSincerely, if you “don’t see anything to be gained in religion", maybe you’ve not thought about it deeply enough. My mom was a Baptist sunday school teacher for decades, my dad was a deacon in the Methodist church. My sister does some missionary work. I took comparative religions in college. My ex-wife was a Jehovahs Witness for 8 years. I've discussed astrology, Scientology, astral projection, Buddhism, and 30 other religions/psuedo-religions. All that said, I tend to think about religion in terms of: What do people get from it? How would they live without it? Why do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? What good is created by religions? What damage is done by religions? I find that there is a large number of emotional needs that are solved by religion. This is the reason that most 12-step programs involve a "higher-power" part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #92 September 13, 2004 QuoteWhy do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? This is definitely one of the more interesting questions. My own opinion...people don't like to think for themselves. It requires work, and sometimes it causes unpleasant thoughts. It's really easy to have someone else tell you and your kids what's right and wrong instead of trying to come up with your own morals.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #93 September 13, 2004 Actually, the morals are easy. Read the 10 commandments, done. Re-read once a year. What are we talking about? Don't steal? Do we need to re-discuss this? Nope. I'm talking day-to-day life. The disciples were commercial fishermen. One (Paul, I believe) was a tent-maker. Real life. A guy with no job, no mortgage, and no kids has no real-world problems. I don't want them telling my family how to live, work, play. A house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #94 September 13, 2004 QuoteActually, the morals are easy. Then, why are there so many interpretations of what the morals are/should be? QuoteA house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. This I will also disagree with. Preachers are often called at all times of the day/night to basically be a person's counselor. They do lots of things that I wouldn't want to do and consider work (ie, my brother's minister married him and his wife, and he showed up when both of his kids were born. He does that for everyone in their church.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #95 September 13, 2004 QuoteAll that said, I tend to think about religion in terms of: What do people get from it? How would they live without it? Why do they think that their religious leaders are in any position to discuss life/moral guidance (and I don't mean just sex) ? What good is created by religions? What damage is done by religions? I think some of this is the reason why many people reject their faith and churches fail. You’re correct in that misuse and abuse of the faith for selfish reasons can cause much damage. Many people are looking for what they can “get” out of their religion (or their church) instead of what they might “put” into it. Christianity is supposed to be about following the example set forth by Jesus. He was a “servant leader.” You should put God first, everyone else second, and yourself last. Leaders of churches are entrusted to do the same (The same holds true for politicians or anyone in a leadership position). Of course, they don’t always do that. They’re human too. During The Last Supper, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples (usually the responsibility of the lowest servant in a person’s house). Peter rejected him at first claiming that he was unworthy. Jesus then said that Peter could take no part in him (referring to his coming sacrifice) unless he accepted. Jesus was setting the example for all of us to love one another more than ourselves. I think that the good that is taught in it is obvious. It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extend of his love. The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciple’s feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet? Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” Jesus answered, “A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean. When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John 13:1-17 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #96 September 13, 2004 So no proof or evidence yet, huh? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #97 September 13, 2004 QuoteReligion provides simple answers to complex questions. You're going to burn in hell for thinking like that! . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #98 September 13, 2004 QuoteA house, a paycheck, no responsibilities. A preacher gives a sermon on working hard. Sure. A guy with no job, no mortgage, and no kids has no real-world problems. I don't want them telling my family how to live, work, play. The 11:00am sermon on Sunday is a very small part of a Preacher’s job. From what I’ve seen of the ones that I’ve been associated with, they’re very busy people with a LOAD of responsibility. QuoteI'm talking day-to-day life. The disciples were commercial fishermen. One (Paul, I believe) was a tent-maker. Real life. Peter and his brother Andrew were fishermen. Paul was, in fact, a tentmaker by trade. He was also a Roman citizen, a soldier, a teacher, a Theologian, and a world traveler. Before his conversion, he was the primary persecutor of Christians. He was a hit-man who tracked them down and killed them. They all gave that up to follow Jesus and preach/teach the good news. That was a big job and a daunting task back then (and a very dangerous one). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #99 September 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteReligion provides simple answers to complex questions. You're going to burn in hell for thinking like that! Nah, I'll be able to keep by feet cool by standing on a stack of television evangelists. I'll be so far from the fire that I'll need a coat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #100 September 13, 2004 QuoteSo no proof or evidence yet, huh? What's your standard of evidence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
