The Bible

[freeflybella 0]

I was just given a 'student' bible from a friend (whom I have alot of respect for) and look forward to reading it.
I have never been religious, never believed in god. And until this friend - have never trusted anyone in their religious 'teachings'. But, in my love for him, have felt the curiosity and openness to his faith.

If nothing else, I will learn more about my friend, learn more about the bible and build a stronger connection to many people who before, I might have misunderstood.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[pajarito 0]

Good for you!

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[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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It amazes me that people can believe and devote their entire lives to something that has yet to prove it's own existence and whose "book" is chalked full of contradictions.

Maybe it's just me but I am a little more choosy in what I follow blindly. At the very least I would want proof. Either that or a book that doesn't lie chapter after chapter.

Well the catch all, non-disprovable fallacy that they employ is, "The whole point is to have faith without proof!"

It's exactly what I would use if I were full of shit but wanted people to believe me when I couldn't back up what I said.

It really is sad and sick that so many hundreds of millions around the world fall for it.

Blue skies,
-Jeffrey
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I was just given a 'student' bible from a friend (whom I have alot of respect for) and look forward to reading it.
I have never been religious, never believed in god. And until this friend - have never trusted anyone in their religious 'teachings'. But, in my love for him, have felt the curiosity and openness to his faith.

If nothing else, I will learn more about my friend, learn more about the bible and build a stronger connection to many people who before, I might have misunderstood.

What if you read it, determine that you think it's just so much bullshit, and lose respect for your friend for being able to be taken in by such a fraud? What if you come to see him as naive and gullible and stupid?

I would rather know people who behave kindly to others because they are simply KIND -- not because they are being on their best behavior so that they can get their own asses some heavenly reward.

Blue skies,
-Jeffrey
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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is it me or does peaceful jeffrey seem rather bitter in this thread?

I am, because I despise religion, the thought behind religion (or rather, the absence of rationality and intellectual honesty in the thought) and what religion has inflicted on humanity.

I'm not the only one who feels this cynicism and loathing of religion; I'm just one of the more vocal people against it.

Blue skies,
-Jeffrey
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[pajarito 0]

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2. How did Jesus punish those with different religions?

“And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak . . . because thou believest not my words” (Luke 1:20).

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New International Version (NIV)
Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.” The angel answered, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time.”
Luke 1:18-20

Luke 1:20 mentioned above is about Zechariah right before the birth of John. He questioned the angel and doubted God. His faith was lacking. He didn’t believe that his wife Elizabeth, as old as she was, could still give birth to a child. God used the silencing of Zechariah to accomplish several purposes:

- To get Zechariah’s attention and force him to think about the enormity of what was to occur.
- To get the people’s attention and show them that God was at work.
- To show the people that John was to be set apart by God and was special.
- In some respects, John’s birth was more publicized than Christ’s because Zechariah’s “vision” was well known and news of his sudden recovery of speech spread rapidly throughout Judah.

However, to say that he was punished for being of a “different religion” is just plain wrong. He was punished for his “weakness” of faith.

[skydyvr 0]

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What if you read it, determine that you think it's just so much bullshit, . . .

Nice supposition, coming from a guy who admits he doesn't have the ability to finish two pages of the bible in a single sitting. Care to digress?

. . =(_8^(1)

[likearock 2]

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I'm looking forward to your reaction if Kerry wins the election since you've stated so many times that you have proof that Bush will be the last president of the US.

Even if Kerry does win it doesn't forego the possibility of Bush still being the last president. He could always run again.

Wayne

[Morcyk 0]

Every generation has believed that the time of the end would be in their own lifetime, yet here we are. How many people stocked up for the end of the world in the year 1999, yet once again here we are. Nobody knows when, or if for that matter, it will happen. Don't dwell on when the end of the world is or you'll be watching your life pass you by in the meantime.

[pajarito 0]

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2. How did Jesus punish those with different religions?

“And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost” (Acts 12:23).

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New International Version (NIV)
On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. They shouted, “This is the voice of god, not of man.” Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, and angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Acts 12:21-23

This type of justice was not inflicted on Herod simply because he wasn’t a true believer or that he was of another religion as is claimed in your question. The context of the passages shows Herod’s two deepest desires at work and God’s opposition to both of these “selfish” desires because they were treason directly against the Son of God. The first desire of Herod was self-exaltation and the second was the limiting of the spreading Christianity. Let’s not also forget that Herod is the one who ordered all the infants killed in Bethlehem when Jesus was born in an attempt to kill the Messiah in a “preemptive assassination attempt” if you will. He also "He killed James the brother of John with the sword; and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also." In other words, what drove him was his desire to be popular as a powerful ruler.

The point is, you may not believe in Jesus. You may even rebel against him. However, if you stand in direct opposition to him, you will lose.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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What if you read it, determine that you think it's just so much bullshit, . . .

Nice supposition, coming from a guy who admits he doesn't have the ability to finish two pages of the bible in a single sitting. Care to digress?

What the hell does my unwillingness to wade through the crap that fills the pages of that book have to do with my question to him: to wit, "Are you prepared for your opinion of your friend to change, once you become more aware of what it is he believes?"

Your post is what is a digression, not mine.

-Jeffrey
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Every generation has believed that the time of the end would be in their own lifetime, yet here we are. How many people stocked up for the end of the world in the year 1999, yet once again here we are. Nobody knows when, or if for that matter, it will happen. Don't dwell on when the end of the world is or you'll be watching your life pass you by in the meantime.

But did we ever hear from the people who, because of their infallible god and religion, kept insisting the world would end then, after the world didn't end? Did they come out and finally admit, "Well, the non-ending of the world despite our 'God's word' that it would end then does actually prove our religion to be baseless"? Of course not. None of them have the courage to do that. They're like the Hydra, and when you cut off one head, others grow to replace it. When you completely dispel one myth, or a given prophecy does not pass as predicted, they pooh-pooh it as irrelevant, or they never acknowledge or bring it up again, and they start talking about the next prediction.

It's smoke and mirrors with religious doctrine.

-Jeffrey
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

...angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Eaten by worms and THEN died??

I'd rather it was in the reverse order if it was gonna happen to me.

-Jeffrey
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[pajarito 0]

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2. How did Jesus punish those with different religions?

“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).

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The Parable of the Ten Minas (NIV)
While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. Put this money to work, he said, until I come back. But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, we don’t want this man to be our king. He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. The first one came and said, Sir, your mina has earned ten more. Well done, my good servant! His master replied. Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities. The second came and said, Sir your mina has earned five more. His master answered, you take charge of five cities. Then another servant came and said, Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow. His master replied, I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest? Then he said to those standing by, Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas. Sir, they said, he already has ten! He replied, I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them – bring them here and kill them in front of me.
Luke 19:11-27

Your quote is a verse from a parable told by Jesus called “The Parable of the Ten Minas” or “The Parable of the Talents” in Mathew 25:14-30. That’s a short moral story used to convey a religious message. It’s not a commanded punishment from Jesus and, put in context; your quoted verse has nothing to do with punishment for being of another religion.

The “parable” gives an important principle with regard to the believer’s reward and state in heaven. What believer’s receive in the future kingdom of God will depend on what they possess of it now. Their position and inheritance in heaven will be in proportion to their present commitment to God’s ways and kingdom.

[pajarito 0]

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Eaten by worms and THEN died??

I'd rather it was in the reverse order if it was gonna happen to me.

Brilliant...

[Frenchy68 0]

...angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died

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I'd rather it was in the reverse order if it was gonna happen to me.

I second that. And will take my chances that I'll go in the same order as PJ.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Zenister 0]

rotflmao.. with that kind of liberal, fit the words to my desires interpretation i can find equally as many references to those in your list in the stains on the cloth underneath my refrigerator as well...

blind faith is such an amazing source of humor...

food? hardly, closer to grit and gristle with no substance or nourishment. Of course since anything that disagrees with your opinion(and it is nothing more) is immediately classified as 'blasphemy', there isnt any room for discussion in your limited world veiw, fortunately, for the rest of us there is more under the sun than your religion has ever dreamt of.....

but i'm sure you'd be right there gleefully piling wood onto the fires of single women in previous centuries too...

minds, hearts and parachutes.. all work best when they are open... the fact that you are unwilling to defend your views and opinions in a OPEN forum says much for the amount of 'truth' contained therein.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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Ahh my bad, never claimed to be articulate, hehe. I was led to believe agnostic was that you didn't necessarily follow any one religion.

I don't recognize a name for god. I just believe that there is a god out there in some form. I don't believe all this could be here by chance.

it is.

Agnosticism in it purist form believes that they (the individual, it is not a structured belief system) does not have enough information do determine the true nature of God, it doesnt not make any claims about the existence of God, one way or another... to the complete agnostic (if such exists) it is always possible that the nature of God is non-existence... there are levels of agnosticism just like any other belief.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Morcyk 0]

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But did we ever hear from the people who, because of their infallible god and religion, kept insisting the world would end then, after the world didn't end? Did they come out and finally admit, "Well, the non-ending of the world despite our 'God's word' that it would end then does actually prove our religion to be baseless"?

Actually the bible states that nobody, not even Christ knows the time when the end will occur. Those that claim to know are getting that information not by the words in the bible, but by their own twisted interpretations. Whether or not the date of the end falls in line with these interpretations neither proves nor disproves this religion.

[freeflybella 0]

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I would rather know people who behave kindly to others because they are simply KIND -- not because they are being on their best behavior so that they can get their own asses some heavenly reward.

TRUST me. He isn't on any 'best behavior' !!

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What if you read it, determine that you think it's just so much bullshit, and lose respect for your friend for being able to be taken in by such a fraud? What if you come to see him as naive and gullible and stupid?

Well then, I'd rather come from an informed position than an ignorant one.

Additionally, I believe religion is personal - I'm guessing the most (negative?) reaction I could have would be to still just not understand.

Whatever he's got going on with god - I have respect for. He's an awesome person - one of the best skydivers in the world - funny and devilish and a tremendously kind and good friend.

I'm not asking him to open up his faith to me so I can judge him - only understand him. If I still feel it's confusing to me or just don't get it, I'll just be grateful he has it and still love him. I think he trusts me with that.

Besides, he tried tofu for me - I have to read it.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[kaerock 1]

Wow, that's like when the Europeans "bought" various pieces of land from the Native Americans for some beads...someone didn't quite make out in that trade. :> Make sure your tit is the same size as your tat!

-R

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Besides, he tried tofu for me - I have to read it.

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[PhillyKev 0]

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Might as well believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

Wait...what are you trying to say?

[pajarito 0]

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3. Pharaoh, alone, made the decision to imprison the Israelites. How did God punish this lone individual?

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle” (Exodus 12:29). And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt . . . And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast” (Exodus 9:22-25). “And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all Egyptians” (Exodus 9:11).

It wasn’t just the Pharaoh who was guilty. They all worshiped pagan gods. They all lived apart from God. They all took their part in the enslavement and bondage of the Israelis (God’s chosen people) and wouldn’t heed his commands to set them free. None were “innocent.”

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Context is everything in biblical interpretation. The ancient Egyptians served many false gods. The Plagues that were set upon the people of Egypt were relative to the gods of the land demonstrating that God was the true God and that their gods were weak, ineffective, and false.

Death of Firstborn

As for the infants themselves, God provides grace for those under “the age of accountability” and only he knows exactly when that is. This is the age when the child is old enough to understand the concept of mankind’s sin and God’s free gift to escape that sin.

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We are unique persons and children of God even before birth(NIV)
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Psalm 139:13-16

***Babies go to heaven
His servants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!” He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live. But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
2 Samuel 12:21-23

These mean that even infants (including the unborn) are also children of God and will return to God when they die.

Children are a gift from God. When the Egyptians stood in direct defiance of God, he took their gifts away. “If you stand against God, you lose.” God gave them every chance in the world to do otherwise.

[freeflybella 0]

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someone didn't quite make out in that trade. :> Make sure your tit is the same size as your tat!

Hey! You're right! I'm perfectly happy with the size of my tits and my tats - but DAMN, this bible thing is HUGE!

...think I'll make him try wheatgrass juice next time...

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[pajarito 0]

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4. How does God punish complainers?

(God will burn the complainer, and everyone residing anywhere near him, with fire.) “And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp” (Numbers 11:1).

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New International Version (NIV)
Now the people complained about their hardships in the hearing of the Lord, and when he heard them his anger aroused. Then fire from the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. When the people cried out to Moses, he prayed to the Lord and the fire died down. So that place was called Taberah, because fire from the Lord had burned among them.
Numbers 11:1-3

Only 3 days into their journey out of Egypt, the people began to complain because their situation wasn’t ideal. They had forgotten quickly their deliverance from slavery and God’s acts on their behalf. They wouldn’t trust God and commit their lives and future to him which brought about God’s judgment on them.

In those primitive times, the judgments of God were very harsh and severe. I think it illustrated the seriousness of God’s law and the penalty for sin. For New Testament believers, provisions have been made for us by God in the sacrificial death of his son Jesus. In those primitive times and during those terrible judgments, however, there was always “an out.” Faith, trust, and obedience were all that were needed.