Zenister 0 #226 September 24, 2004 Quote I have not see you provide one bit of PROOF anything has changed. Definitions very rarely change anyway. nice excuse... but they do when your changing fundamental concepts....and you know what? we ARE...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #227 September 24, 2004 I still have not seen any PROOF. So nice try yourself."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,099 #228 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteJust bringing the discussion back to the point, since you Bushies are trying to divert attention to dictionary definitions. Sorry you don't like it, but I have the same posting privileges here as you do. Yep, but no one has to care. Quote The point is, Bush selectively used intel that coincided with his prejudices and ignored intel that didn't. He chose poorly. The buck stops at the top, not in the Senate. And you KNOW this based on your secret clearence and having looked at all the data yourself? Fact is you don't, that you have grabed on to a mindset and refuse to consider anything else. Like I said before, Sad I KNOW as much as you do. The UNMOVIC inspectors said no WMD, Bush's guy said no WMD, Colin Powell now says no WMD, All "WMD found" claims turned out to be bogus or long forgotten obsolete stuff of no military value. Bush made claims before Congress and the American people that turned out to be false. Powell made claims before the UN Security Council that turned out to be false. Rumsfeld said "we know where they are" and it was a lie. And you still believe the liars. That's what's sad.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #229 September 24, 2004 QuoteThat's what's sad. I don't find it sad. I find it mind boggling. Why does it seem so obvious to some people, while just as many other people see the exact opposite? It really is freaky that the country is so diametrically opposed in their conclusions based on the same observations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #230 September 24, 2004 QuoteI still have not seen any PROOF. Are you talking about the WMDs? I thought so... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #231 September 24, 2004 ok, your in FL, wander over to Melbourne, or across the way to Tampa, or really to ANY military base. Go find ANY military leader (NCO or officer) and ask them if they are still doing things the way they did five years ago. Then ask them if they have changed the manuals to reflect that. If they are AF, the answer will be YES, or "we are in the process of doing so" if they are Army (and they are involved at all, many simply dont care...) the answer will be... "ummm i dont know TRADOC hasnt gotten back to me on that" there is a serious lack of progress in the Army on catching up... The new stuff is right as of the time its published (go look up ABCS if your interested. i helped write and review a good portion of what applied to the systems I work on, and you might be surprised at how much has changed since you were in.) getting the older FMs changed quickly (as in under 10 years for the Army) damn near takes an act of congress... ever tried? Did you put in for a single revision while you were in the Army? Every soldier can make suggestions, correct obvious errors and offer improvements. They go through a peer review process by recognized Subject Matter Experts (both military and civilian) and then get put into TRADOCs hands.... As contractors WE write the revisions to a number of TMs, but we are still not the approving authority and cannot publish and distribute them unless manual revisions were specifically addressed in the contracts. As a result, even when the TMs are up to date the FMs on how to apply the systems are not... there are IEWS FMs for the Army that still refer to OV1D Mohawks!!!!____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #232 September 24, 2004 QuoteI KNOW as much as you do. The UNMOVIC inspectors said no WMD And the inspectors in 95 United Nations Special Commission, or UNSCOM found WMD's.... So what did he do with them? They told Charles Duelfer the head of that group that they had them. Where did they go? It weas SH job to tell us what he did with them...He didn't. QuoteBush made claims before Congress and the American people that turned out to be false. Powell made claims before the UN Security Council that turned out to be false. Rumsfeld said "we know where they are" and it was a lie. And you still believe the liars. You need to look up "liar". If you say something and you think it is the truth it is not a lie, but a mistake. I will grant you it looks like the Admin thinking Iraq had WMD was a mistake. But for it to be a lie they had to know that there were not WMD there. So I can say it looks like they were wrong, but you can't prove they lied. And there is a big difference between being wrong and being a lair."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,099 #233 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteI KNOW as much as you do. The UNMOVIC inspectors said no WMD And the inspectors in 95 United Nations Special Commission, or UNSCOM found WMD's.... So what did he do with them? They told Charles Duelfer the head of that group that they had them. Where did they go? It weas SH job to tell us what he did with them...He didn't. QuoteBush made claims before Congress and the American people that turned out to be false. Powell made claims before the UN Security Council that turned out to be false. Rumsfeld said "we know where they are" and it was a lie. And you still believe the liars. You need to look up "liar". If you say something and you think it is the truth it is not a lie, but a mistake. I will grant you it looks like the Admin thinking Iraq had WMD was a mistake. But for it to be a lie they had to know that there were not WMD there. So I can say it looks like they were wrong, but you can't prove they lied. And there is a big difference between being wrong and being a lair. Oh, the old "Alice in Wonderland" argument. So who is GWB, the March Hare or the Mad Hatter?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #234 September 24, 2004 QuoteIt weas SH job to tell us what he did with them...He didn't. So what? It was Bush's job to make sure that we don't invade other countries when they don't pose an imminent threat to us..... He didn't. Hussein failed at his job so we removed him from power. Bush failed at his, what remedy do you propose? QuoteSo I can say it looks like they were wrong, but you can't prove they lied. And there is a big difference between being wrong and being a lair. The result is the same. An unnecessary war for non-existent reasons. I don't see much of a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #235 September 24, 2004 QuoteHe didn't. Isn't hindsight a beautiful thing? Bush has pretty plainly said that if he is to loose his job over Iraq, so be it, it was still the right thing to do... Its called courage of convictions... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #236 September 24, 2004 QuoteHussein failed at his job so we removed him from power. Bush failed at his, what remedy do you propose? Vote unlike what Saddam's people could do. If enough people agree with you then you win. Easy and fair huh? In Iraq Saddam would have killed you if you made that suggestion. QuoteI don't see much of a difference Thats because you are not willing to have an open mind."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #237 September 24, 2004 QuoteBush has pretty plainly said that if he is to loose his job over Iraq, so be it, it was still the right thing to do... Its called courage of convictions... Right on!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #238 September 24, 2004 QuoteIsn't hindsight a beautiful thing? Hndsight is irrelevant. Once again, many of us said the same thing before the war. Quote Its called courage of convictions... Actually I believe it is called acting without thinking. What the hell was so courageous of Bush about it? He's got jets, secret service, nuclear weapons, money and an army to protect himself. It's everyone else that he's put at risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #239 September 24, 2004 QuoteThats because you are not willing to have an open mind. Right....I don't have an open mind because I think we should explore other options besides total war. You guys seem to be the group that weren't willing to be open minded about alternatives to death and mayhem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #240 September 24, 2004 QuoteRight....I don't have an open mind because I think we should explore other options besides total war. You guys seem to be the group that weren't willing to be open minded about alternatives to death and mayhem. ____ Well sittinga round for 12 years didn't do anything did it? I mean you seem to forget that if Saddam had actually COMPLIED then we had no issue. And yeah, you guys were possibly right in hindsight. I can get someone to flip a coin, I can call heads...You can call tails....If one of us gets it right it only means that was the way it went. If you claim no WMD's and I claim that they had enough intel to make a good guess, so I thought they were correct.... Well in both cases one of us will be right and one wrong. So its not like you had any special powers or knowledge."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #241 September 24, 2004 QuoteIf you claim no WMD's and I claim that they had enough intel to make a good guess, so I thought they were correct.... Well in both cases one of us will be right and one wrong. And the difference in our views, as I see it, is that we're not willing to kill people over a guess. QuoteSo its not like you had any special powers or knowledge. That's true, but neither does Bush, so why does everyone tout his "sticking to convictions" when his convictions can be and were wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #242 September 24, 2004 QuoteBush has pretty plainly said that if he is to loose his job over Iraq, so be it, it was still the right thing to do... Its called courage of convictions... Uh... Not it's not. He doesn't have a choice. He went there. There are elections. Someone will win them. And there is NOTHING that Bush can do about it afterwards. If that's courage of conviction, then I must be a super hero "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #243 September 24, 2004 QuoteAnd the difference in our views, as I see it, is that we're not willing to kill people over a guess. And Im not willing to sit around and do nothing when a proven bad guy continues to do bad things while ignoring the conditions of his probation. QuoteThat's true, but neither does Bush, so why does everyone tout his "sticking to convictions" when his convictions can be and were wrong. Because he does not flop around like Kerry...Ya know the For war/Against war guy?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #244 September 24, 2004 Forget Kerry. Why do you like that quality in Bush. Why do you prefer that he makes a quick decision and refuses to hear any dissenting commentary? I just don't get why that appeals to you guys to have someone that is not willing to listen to other view points. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #245 September 24, 2004 QuoteOnce again, many of us said the same thing before the war. And there lies the differences of opinion about the war... The administration beivied that the intelligence, from multiple sources, that WMDs were still there out weighed the intelligence that said they weren't... and further that the UN had been given long enough, and it was time to act... That was the administration's call to make (as was granted by the congessional vote)... If you agree with the administrations thinking, your likely to vote for Bush... If you think the administration was wrong, vote him out... just make sure you vote for a candidate that would have truely acted differently... QuoteWhat the hell was so courageous of Bush about it? Courage of convictions and physical courage are not necessaily synonymous... Doing what one believes is right despite the implications to oneself is in many ways courageous... Again, if you think that Bush was right vote for him. If you think Bush was wrong on Iraq, vote for someone who has been constantly against the war, from the beginning. Oh wait, that guy got beat in the primaries... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #246 September 24, 2004 Quotequick decision Um... three administrations, one of them a two term'er, have wrestled with Iraq... that's hardly a quick decision. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #247 September 24, 2004 QuoteForget Kerry. Why do you like that quality in Bush Well to use the same tricks you do...#1 he is NOT Kerry. I would not trust Kerry to be my dog catcher. But I LIKE Bush because he did what he thought was right based on the intel he had at the time. I think he is a trustworthy person, who says what he thinks, and does not play to the polls like Kerry. He has ONE side to his choices. He thinks about the issue and makes a choice. And lives with that choice. (Unlike Kerry who changes his mind to whatever is popular at the time). QuoteWhy do you prefer that he makes a quick decision and refuses to hear any dissenting commentary? You don't know what he listend to...You only can guess. I am willing to bet he listend to both sides and went with the one he thought was best for the country. I am sure he head comentary that opposed the opinion he made. I like that a guy makes choices rather than sits around doing nothing about a situation for eight years."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #248 September 24, 2004 QuoteYou don't know what he listend to...You only can guess. I am willing to bet he listend to both sides and went with the one he thought was best for the country. I am sure he head comentary that opposed the opinion he made. Then why did everyone who has been fired or resigned from his administration say that it was because he refused to listen to alternatives? QuoteI like that a guy makes choices rather than sits around doing nothing about a situation for eight years. Even when it's the wrong thing and worse than nothing/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #249 September 24, 2004 Blah...blah...blah...blah... Bush wins in 04. Blah...blah... Bush Wins I can't believe this thing is still going on. You guys are persistent. I think this one may win a record for longevity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdweller 0 #250 September 24, 2004 I can't believe that Nader didn't get any write in votes.------------------------------------------------------ "From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
