U.S. Weapons Inspector: Iraq Had No WMD

[billvon 3,063]

>There was TONs of intel that said otherwise....Enough intel that was
> able to get the UN, Congress, The President...ect to feel there was a
> problem.

There was even more that said it was wrong, but we ignored that intel because it did not fit in with our plans.

>Or based on the available intel (since he was not giving up any
> information) a NBC agent could have been used at the Superbowl.

An NBC weapon WAS used against our capitol. It did not come from Iraq. The threat from our own labs is far, far higher than any imagined threat from a dictator who has no WMD labs.

>Doubtful...France was busy selling Iraq supplies.

And we (Halliburton) were buying oil from him. Didn't stop us.

>Everyone is right in hindsight...Hey, don't go on the Titanic...It will sink.

Exactly. But the key is that once the Titanic sinks. you have to not get on the same kind of boat again, or you are foolish one for not learning. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, uh . . ..

[jdhill 0]

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Better yet, ask Bush who had troops in Iraq back in 91. Don't blame Clinton or the UN for Bush Sr's screw up.

Uh, don't know much about the first Gulf War do you?

There was no political mandate to continue to Bagdad.

There was not support with the coalition to do so either.

The UN sanctions grew out of the cease fire agreement... an agreement that SH violated pretty much from day one... Yes, we should have taken care of the problem then, but we wanted international support... Are you suggesting that it would have been OK to go it alone then? We should have taken care of the problem when we had troops there in '94 and '98 too... who was the President then?

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Better yet, ask Bush who had troops in Iraq back in 91. Don't blame Clinton or the UN for Bush Sr's screw up.

Uh, don't know much about the first Gulf War do you?

There was no political mandate to continue to Bagdad.

There was not support with the coalition to do so either.

I may have been a bit younger (high school) when it happened, but I do recall a lot.

Maybe Bush Sr could have taught some of that diplomacy to his son?

Everything I heard had Bush saying he never wanted to go into Bahgdad, but his advisors said he should. In fact isn't that why he let go Stormin Norman?

There wasn't full coalition support this time either. At least last time we have a real reason to go in - he invaded a country. This time we had WMD, oh wait.... Yes, he violated sanctions, but as you said he did that right after the war ended as well. He was shooting at our planes in the no fly zone while Bush was still in office.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[jdhill 0]

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In fact isn't that why he let go Stormin Norman?

In fact, No... he had his nickname from his hot temper.

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Yes, he violated sanctions, but as you said he did that right after the war ended as well. He was shooting at our planes in the no fly zone while Bush was still in office.

And the response was minimal, most likely due to the election campaign season that was underway. The majority of the violations occured under Clinton's watch... Operation Desert Fox was Clinton's only significant response to any of SH's games, and it was toned down from what it was planned to be...

Still, are you suggesting that it would have been OK for Bush Sr. to have responded without international approval?

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Ron 10]

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>There was TONs of intel that said otherwise....Enough intel that was
> able to get the UN, Congress, The President...ect to feel there was a
> problem.

There was even more that said it was wrong, but we ignored that intel because it did not fit in with our plans.

OK...Lets say I shot someone 12 years ago. You sold me the gun. The cops come and tell me I have to give up that gun or else....That or else turns to 12 years...No one does anything to me, and I don't give the gun up....Mean time I am saying I am going to kill you for the last 12 years. In that time I have given money to people who are killing people. Finally you ARE attacked from someone. Your defenses didn't work....I hear about it and it is clear I am glad, and you are now afraid that I might give that gun to a buddy of mine to kill you, or even kill you myself.

Now a few folks are telling you that I have that gun and others...A few others are saying that I don't.

The cost of you thinking I don't have that gun...And remember I DID have one YOU SOLD ME ONE. I have never given it up like I was supposed to, and you have been told I both have it and more and that I don't have one at all. Is that I could kill you.

The cost of acting like I still have that gun is less than ignoring the possibility that I don't.

The cost of ignoring SH and the intel that said he had it could have ended with an NBC attack in a US city.

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An NBC weapon WAS used against our capitol. It did not come from Iraq. The threat from our own labs is far, far higher than any imagined threat from a dictator who has no WMD labs.

Yep and that makes it even MORE possible that someone else could do it, but with a bigger much worse weapon.

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Exactly. But the key is that once the Titanic sinks. you have to not get on the same kind of boat again, or you are foolish one for not learning. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, uh . . ..

Then we should fire EVERYONE that voted for it...to include Kerry.

Plus:

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"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country" --Gore, September 23,2003

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."--Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime...now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued decit and his consistant grasp for weapons of mass destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" --John F. Kerry, Jan 23, 2003.

Everyone thought he had them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I don't know why we waited...That is a question for the UN, and Clinton and Co.

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Better yet, ask Bush who had troops in Iraq back in 91. Don't blame Clinton or the UN for Bush Sr's screw up.

This is where the liberals kill me.

In 91 the International folks wanted Bush Sr. to not go into Baghdad...And he didn't...So now you blame him for it.

In 2003 Bush Jr. wanted to go in...But now you give him crap for NOT listening to the international community.

Folks thats about as flip/flop as you get.

Either you want the CiC to listen to everybody, or not.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

There was a real given threat in 91. There wasn't this time. I said before, I had no problem with the attack in 91.

Oh yea, I'm not liberal. That label doesn't fit me. Open minded is the one I prefer.....I don't go on party lines nor do I allow myself to be limited to one course of action like the conservatives seem to get stuck on. Not all scenarios scale up over time, and with the ability to shelve pride and realize you made a mistake you can grow and choose the right course of action. That is open minded, not anything else.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 10]

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There was a real given threat in 91

Not to the US.

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There wasn't this time

There is a real threat now. And SH was thought to be a very good source of making that danger really ugly.

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Oh yea, I'm not liberal. That label doesn't fit me. Open minded is the one I prefer.....

Then why can't you realize that there is a real threat now, and that SH would have liked nothing better than to employ a WMD on American soil?

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I don't go on party lines nor do I allow myself to be limited to one course of action like the conservatives seem to get stuck on.

Sticking to a course of action when it is not popular is important...Flipping to the popular side is a trait that the liberals seem to have.

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the ability to shelve pride and realize you made a mistake you can grow and choose the right course of action. That is open minded, not anything else.

You call it an open mind...I call it doing whatever it takes to be popular. And that makes for bad leadership.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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There was a real given threat in 91

Not to the US.

But to US interests there were.

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Then why can't you realize that there is a real threat now, and that SH would have liked nothing better than to employ a WMD on American soil?

Did SH tell you that? And with what WMDs?

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Sticking to a course of action when it is not popular is important...Flipping to the popular side is a trait that the liberals seem to have.

Well then, Bush Sr should have followed his gut and gone against popular opinion and moved into Bahgdad.

Leadership requires an open mind because you are representing the people of this country, and they all have different opinions. As a leader, you must listen to your people. IF that means you make a strategic decision to change policy, so be it. If I am not mistaken Time Magazine nominated Bush Sr as "Men of the Year" because of how much he flip flopped.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[PhreeZone 20]

Nice story Ron.. now put in there the part about detectives coming over looking for that gun all the time but are never able to find it. They might find things like the owners manual for a gun safe, or a phamlet for a NRA meeting, but never a gun, bullets or even targets.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

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There was a real given threat in 91

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Not to the US.

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But to US interests there were.

And no there is a real threat to the US on its own soil.

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Did SH tell you that? And with what WMDs?

SH said it to ANYONE that would listen. You never saw him on TV while the crowds burned US flags saying "Death to America the great Satan?"

And with the WMD's the US sold him. And with the WMD's that he used 10 times. With the WMD's that he had the materials to make. With the MWD's he was reported to have. With the WMD's that he was supposed to say how he destroyed, but never did say if he did.

Those WMD's. Maybe he didn't have them after all...But I'd rather NOT find them in Iraq, than find one in times square right after it was used.

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Well then, Bush Sr should have followed his gut and gone against popular opinion and moved into Bahgdad.

But the International community told him not to do that.

Now you slam Jr. for doing EXACTLY THAT.

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Leadership requires an open mind because you are representing the people of this country, and they all have different opinions

It requires an open mind to listen to opinions...But not an open mind after you have made a choice. You need to make a choice and not flip flop around with the wind.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Nice story Ron.. now put in there the part about detectives coming over looking for that gun all the time but are never able to find it. They might find things like the owners manual for a gun safe, or a phamlet for a NRA meeting, but never a gun, bullets or even targets.

Well SH was told to not have ANY plans to restart a WMD program...So even that would be in violation.

But you see what if I played with the detectives and they told you that I was not being honest, and they felt I was playing the sheel game with them?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jib 0]

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Nice story Ron.. now put in there the part about detectives coming over looking for that gun all the time but are never able to find it. They might find things like the owners manual for a gun safe, or a phamlet for a NRA meeting, but never a gun, bullets or even targets.

It's what happens when the detectives are never allowed to look in the shed outback or under the pool.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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And no there is a real threat to the US on its own soil.

Wha? There was no real threat to our soil in 91, and there wasn't one this time either. However, we do have a madman that can reach Alaska with bombs and we are doing nothing with that.

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SH said it to ANYONE that would listen. You never saw him on TV while the crowds burned US flags saying "Death to America the great Satan?"

A lot of the world says that about us. If we are going to start waging wars on idle threats and public speeches that get people to ignore their current econmy in favor of nationalistic pride....we better institute the draft because we will have a lot of wars to wage.

Technically with that logic Iran and N. Korea could take the "Axis of Evil" speech and use that as a reason to be agressive and attack us.

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And with the WMD's the US sold him.

Well, who looks like the bigger idiots now? Maybe the US should take a moment and think out MidEast policy next time before we just start supporting whoever is giving us oil. So, we made a huge mistake giving him those weapons and that was a choice that was made, so according to your logic we should still be giving him those weapons because that shows real leadership by not flip flopping.

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Those WMD's. Maybe he didn't have them after all...But I'd rather NOT find them in Iraq, than find one in times square right after it was used.

So its better to wage a war without a real reason supported by real proof so you can sleep better at night about a "what if" situation that may never have happened?

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Now you slam Jr. for doing EXACTLY THAT.

And yet that is the excuse you give for Bush Sr for not moving in. This is circular.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 10]

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Wha? There was no real threat to our soil in 91, and there wasn't one this time either.

You seem to forget we have been attacked on US soil twice by Islamic extremists in the last 10 years....In fact I can't think of an attack from OUTSIDE the US after Peal Harbor till the WTC attack in 93.

So there was a threat, we just didn't see it till after 9/11.

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A lot of the world says that about us

Yep, but how many have yes answers to these four questions:

1. Hate us.
2. Have/Had WMD's
3. Have USED WMD's
4. Support terrorism.

SH/Iraq was one place that had all four.

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Technically with that logic Iran and N. Korea could take the "Axis of Evil" speech and use that as a reason to be agressive and attack us.

Yes, they could.

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Well, who looks like the bigger idiots now?

Oh the US looks pretty stupid. We supported people who later turned on us....Oh wait, that happens all the time even in personal relationships right?

Fact is we the US did some stupid stuff. But hindsight is easy...Leading IN those situations is harder than playing Monday morning President. We would all be perfect if we could make our choices AFTER the event.

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So its better to wage a war without a real reason supported by real proof so you can sleep better at night about a "what if" situation that may never have happened?

There was a REAL reason. He was though to have WMD's. He never told the inspectors what he did with them. He had the tools needed to restart his WMD programs and he supported terrrorism.

Maybe it was not the correct thought in HINDSIGHT..but the intel at the time was good enough to have the UN, President, US Congress and several other countries thinking that SH was a danger.

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Now you slam Jr. for doing EXACTLY THAT.

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And yet that is the excuse you give for Bush Sr for not moving in. This is circular.

Not a EXCUSE the REASON. I don't agree with that choice. Sr. fucked up.

But then again I am not the one slamming one guy for not doing it, and then slamming another for doing it...you are.

Thats a double standard.

Both Bush Sr., and Clinton should have done it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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You seem to forget we have been attacked on US soil twice by Islamic extremists in the last 10 years....In fact I can't think of an attack from OUTSIDE the US after Peal Harbor till the WTC attack in 93.

Nope - haven't forgotten that at all.
But, what does that have to do with Iraq? Last I checked that threat is still sitting in a mountain in Afghanastan or Pakastan.

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Fact is we the US did some stupid stuff. But hindsight is easy...Leading IN those situations is harder than playing Monday morning President. We would all be perfect if we could make our choices AFTER the event.

So you are saying flip flops are a good thing then.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Zenister 0]

actually the analysis said that, the intel showed something else entirely when it was looked at again by those NOT looking soley for a justifiction for war, but instead looking at the information as given.

there is a great deal of difference between intel and analysis. The administration used the analysis that agreed with their intent, and ignored everyone else... sort of like CBS and Dan Rather...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Maybe Bush Sr could have taught some of that diplomacy to his son?

Everything I heard had Bush saying he never wanted to go into Bahgdad, but his advisors said he should. In fact isn't that why he let go Stormin Norman?

It seems much more plausible that Bush was content to take the quick "100 hours" victory with minimal troop losses, while we weren't very confident would hold up if we marched to the capitol. The American public would not have been very accepting of great losses.

Move forward 12 years and the attacks have changed our risk tolerance, and the Iraqi forces have weakened.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Maybe Bush Sr could have taught some of that diplomacy to his son?

Everything I heard had Bush saying he never wanted to go into Bahgdad, but his advisors said he should. In fact isn't that why he let go Stormin Norman?

It seems much more plausible that Bush was content to take the quick "100 hours" victory with minimal troop losses, while we weren't very confident would hold up if we marched to the capitol. The American public would not have been very accepting of great losses.

Move forward 12 years and the attacks have changed our risk tolerance, and the Iraqi forces have weakened.

You can tolerate 1000 dead American soldiers?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[kelpdiver 2]

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>They would not vote to end that cash cow.

They said they were willing to invade if we gave them a deadline (30-90 days) - we were not willing to wait.

Wait till the dead of summer to start a desert land invasion? Everyone knew that the there was a weather deadline to start, and those on the other side (read Iraq and France) did everything they could to stall past that point.

The hammer was cocked when the troops got sent out. That was the time for Iraq to fold.

[kelpdiver 2]

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[
You can tolerate 1000 dead American soldiers?

This has nothing to do with me individually. This is about the difference between 1991 and 2003 from a political perspective.

And for the record, the taking of Bagdad did not result in 1000 dead soldiers. It was closer to one third of that. It's this continued attempt at nation building that is costing us dearly.

[AirMail 0]

Am I in the wrong forum? I thought this was The Bonfire.

P-

--
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
Postal Rodriguez, Muff 3342

[Frenchy68 0]

and those on the other side (read Iraq and France)***
What movie are you watching?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[AirMail 0]

Am I in the wrong forum? I thought this was The Bonfire.

P-

--
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
Postal Rodriguez, Muff 3342

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Am I in the wrong forum? I thought this was The Bonfire.

P-

bwahahah!!!

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....