rickjump1 0 #26 September 23, 2004 Could you not say that every legal MD in the phone book worked just as hard as you did? I'm sure some of you are better than others, but it's word of mouth, no scale of 1 to 10. No matter what you call your profession, it is a business, but it does not give the public a choice in price. I thank you for the response. Don't flame me too hard. Got to fly offshore in the Gulf of Mexico in the AM.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 September 23, 2004 QuoteCompetition is the American way except in areas of medicine or law. Dude, open your eyes. Well, tough for you to do without living it. But, take my word for it as one who has worked in medicine, became a lawyer, then specialized in medical issues: Competition is fierce in medicine and law. Medicine and law, economically, are "supercompetitive." That is, it's more difficult for your run of the mill attorney or doctor to make a living because of fee lowering in response to competition. An attorney has a nice defense contract with an insurance company? If so, he's charging at least 50 dollars per hour under his usual rate. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #28 September 23, 2004 Quoteit is a business, but it does not give the public a choice in price I call, once again, bullshit. The public CAN shop around for a doctor. In fact, we see it all the time. Most Americans do. That's why they go to their referral list for their insurer. To save money. Anecdote - When I was uninsured and ran a fever of 104.7, I called around to different ER's to check on price. When I showed up, I went to the front of the line and got a discount. Why? Because I had cold hard cash. 60 dollars for the visit, 10 for the shot in the ass, and another 30 for the prescription. The closest ER wanted $260 for the visit. I'll go the extra five miles to save a couple hundred bucks... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #29 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteit is a business, but it does not give the public a choice in price I call, once again, bullshit. The public CAN shop around for a doctor. In fact, we see it all the time. Most Americans do. That's why they go to their referral list for their insurer. To save money.... "I looked at the chart. Don't worry about the price. You have good medical insurance. This is the best care you can get". This is the response my friend got before they put him to sleep. He had twice asked the doctor how much this was going to cost. He was concerned about cost even though he had insurance. Sure, you can haggle over the phone for an ER price. Can you do that with every hospital or doctor? I don't think so .Insurance companies have referral lists, but what about the vast number of working people in this country who don't have insurance? Why not have a cost list of medical procedures up front? Get it online. No mystery.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #30 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuote: "Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income". That is very a socialistic idea. Nowhere in the constitution, or any other governing document do I see anyhing that says we deserve to be healthy, or have a right to medical care. Besides, why should some people work hard to pay for theri own health care and the health care of others? Hmmmm. Would you take the job of turning sick children away cause they don't have insurance? I don't know how well it would pay, but it sounds like you might enjoy the work. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #31 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteit is a business, but it does not give the public a choice in price I call, once again, bullshit. The public CAN shop around for a doctor. In fact, we see it all the time. Most Americans do. That's why they go to their referral list for their insurer. To save money. Anecdote - When I was uninsured and ran a fever of 104.7, I called around to different ER's to check on price. When I showed up, I went to the front of the line and got a discount. Why? Because I had cold hard cash. 60 dollars for the visit, 10 for the shot in the ass, and another 30 for the prescription. reply] I call bullshit. I've worked in over 20 ER's from small, plush, suburban hospitals to mammoth county facilities and this simply doesn't happen ...ever! Your time to treatment is determined by the severity of your illness/injury. It might get lengthened a bit if you really piss me off, but I have never seen or heard of such a thing happening as a cash customer going to the 'front of the line'. Now you can save money on the ER visit to stop your nose from growing, I have an immediate cure for you. ;) Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #32 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo now what do we do with those 41 million uninsured? Why should I have to pay for my insurance and theirs? Why should the gov't (all of us) pay the $80 billion a year to cover their insurance? Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. QuoteTHe Democrats currently claim that its the Big Pharma companies fault. (I agree that the US is getting screwed on Rx). The gov't is the single largest purchaser of medicine. They should use that power to bargain with the pharma companies for better pricing instead of arbitrarily increasing drug expenditures wholesale while allowing the drug companies to raise prices by the same amount or more. QuoteThe republicans say its the lawyers excessive lawsuits and (outrageous) settelements). Also true. Tort reform is needed across the board. 1. The government is specifically prohibited from bargaining with the drug companies under Bush's Medicare act. 2. Bush withheld the cost of the Medicare act from Congress until after the vote. 3. US drug companies are not hurting for profits. In fact they have among the highest profit margins of any US industry. Their profits significantly exceed their research expenditures. They are whining "wolf" when they tell us about how much they have to charge for drugs to pay for the research. 4. A sizeable fraction of the drug R&D is in fact paid for by the government anyway. I love how you make these statements of "Fact" with nothing there to vouch for your claim. The truth is it cost about 1Billion dollars and about 10 yrs to get a new drug to market. How do you make that money back? (See link below) Also, this is capitalism.... There is no monopoly here.... Other companies and countries will get in the fray and prices will drop. Or we could get the government involved and they can overpay, jackup cost, and raise taxes so we all get free drugs.... http://www.forbes.com/sciencesandmedicine/2004/05/28/cz_kd_0528outsourcing.html ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #33 September 23, 2004 QuoteBecause we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. While I agree to a point...That is VERY socialistic thinking. And this country was NOT founded as socialistic. I think it is the responsability to help...But I don't think the answer is to force others to do it. And the government rarely steps in and makes things better. I ahve been to covernment hospitals....NOT what you want for everyone. Tort reform is needed...I find it funny that Edwards made his money off of it, but claims he can help fix the problems."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #34 September 23, 2004 QUOTE: "Insurance companies are a big part of the problem." Yes and no. Insurance premiums are so high because the insurance companies are FORCED by the Leeches, oh excuse me, the LAWYERS and the ignorant juries to pay exorbitant settlements for things that are TRULY accidents. Until the legal profession is reeled in, and Lawyers are not able to profit so exorbitantly from the experiences of others, the problem will continue. Just my HO. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #35 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuote: "Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income". That is very a socialistic idea. Nowhere in the constitution, or any other governing document do I see anyhing that says we deserve to be healthy, or have a right to medical care. Besides, why should some people work hard to pay for theri own health care and the health care of others? The Xth Amendment gives us all kinds of rights. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean we don't have them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #36 September 23, 2004 Quote 1. The government is specifically prohibited from bargaining with the drug companies under Bush's Medicare act. 2. Bush withheld the cost of the Medicare act from Congress until after the vote. 3. US drug companies are not hurting for profits. In fact they have among the highest profit margins of any US industry. Their profits significantly exceed their research expenditures. They are whining "wolf" when they tell us about how much they have to charge for drugs to pay for the research. 4. A sizeable fraction of the drug R&D is in fact paid for by the government anyway. I love how you make these statements of "Fact" with nothing there to vouch for your claim. The truth is it cost about 1Billion dollars and about 10 yrs to get a new drug to market. How do you make that money back? (See link below) Also, this is capitalism.... There is no monopoly here.... Other companies and countries will get in the fray and prices will drop. Or we could get the government involved and they can overpay, jackup cost, and raise taxes so we all get free drugs.... http://www.forbes.com/sciencesandmedicine/2004/05/28/cz_kd_0528outsourcing.html Which particular fact do you dispute? (1) is part of the Act, (2) is well documented, (3) is easy to verify, and (4) is also easy to verify. The Forbes article says nothing that contradicts any of the above.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #37 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteBecause we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. While I agree to a point...That is VERY socialistic thinking. And this country was NOT founded as socialistic. I think it is the responsability to help...But I don't think the answer is to force others to do it. And the government rarely steps in and makes things better. I ahve been to covernment hospitals....NOT what you want for everyone. Tort reform is needed...I find it funny that Edwards made his money off of it, but claims he can help fix the problems. Yup. The AME who gave me my FAA medical is so hard pressed by his insurance premiums that he can hardly afford to keep his Stearman, Bonanza, and Cessna 310 flying, let alone keep his own private airport in operation. If his premiums go up any more he'll have to start working three days a week instead of the two he works now.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #38 September 23, 2004 QuoteAnecdote - When I was uninsured and ran a fever of 104.7, I called around to different ER's to check on price. When I showed up, I went to the front of the line and got a discount. Why? Because I had cold hard cash. 60 dollars for the visit, 10 for the shot in the ass, and another 30 for the prescription. If you let most places know you are paying cash and have no insurance, they will cut you a break. Charge you for a lower code/level of visit, etc. They will still get as much for your $100 than the $260 bill to the insurance company that may pay $100 if they are lucky. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #39 September 23, 2004 QuoteHmmmm. Would you take the job of turning sick children away cause they don't have insurance? I don't know how well it would pay, but it sounds like you might enjoy the work. I'm seeing a kid in a few hours who has no insurance, her parents are total losers and won't get her any form of health care, and she has been in remedial classes for YEARS even though she has failed every eye test thrown at her and has told a lot of people that she can't see what is on the page. I just found out about it. Free exam and free glasses today. I just about cried when I heard that story from her youth group leader. Docs get into the field for the most part because we truly do care. And most of us can't stand to turn someone away who truly needs the help. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #40 September 23, 2004 QuoteI call bullshit. I've worked in over 20 ER's from small, plush, suburban hospitals to mammoth county facilities and this simply doesn't happen ...ever! Well, it did. Then again, 104.7 fever trumps the earaches. But you also have a point. Coming from someone familiar with the terms "low census" and good insurance, I know how things operate on that end, as well. Why the heck was I in and out of that ER in 25 minutes? Others were waiting. Sure, the doctor had me open my mouth, say "AH" and said only two words, "Big time." Quick, efficient, and easy. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ahegeman 0 #41 September 24, 2004 QuoteThe Xth Amendment gives us all kinds of rights. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean we don't have them. Oh, come on, Kallend. You're smarter than that. The 10th Amendment isn't gonna help you out on this one. It simply limits the powers of the federal government to those specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Of course, most of the shit the government does nowadays violates that amendment, but who's keeping track? A literal interpretation of the 10th would say that unless the Constitution specifically says the feds have the power to tax and regulate in order to provide free healthcare, then they do not have that power. I don't remember reading about health care in the Federalist Papers anywhere, either.--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ahegeman 0 #42 September 24, 2004 It boggles my mind that skydivers, of all people, would advocate free, government provided health care. How close behind do you think rules regulating dangerous behavior would follow in the name of cost-savings? Or do you think that society should bear the responsibility of paying for the broken neck/back/leg/etc that you got swooping the pond?--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwmike 0 #43 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteI call bullshit. I've worked in over 20 ER's from small, plush, suburban hospitals to mammoth county facilities and this simply doesn't happen ...ever! QuoteWell, it did. Then again, 104.7 fever trumps the earaches. I'll give you that. That fever (in an adult) can cause all sorts of lasting neurological dysfunction ...oh, never mind. I get it now. QuoteBut you also have a point. Coming from someone familiar with the terms "low census" and good insurance, I know how things operate on that end, as well. Yep, on admissions, that used to happen from time to time QuoteWhy the heck was I in and out of that ER in 25 minutes? Others were waiting. Sure, the doctor had me open my mouth, say "AH" and said only two words, "Big time." Quick, efficient, and easy. The 105 temp would have done it if the people waiting were boo-boo and band-aid types. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #44 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe Xth Amendment gives us all kinds of rights. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean we don't have them. Oh, come on, Kallend. You're smarter than that. The 10th Amendment isn't gonna help you out on this one. It simply limits the powers of the federal government to those specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Of course, most of the shit the government does nowadays violates that amendment, but who's keeping track? A literal interpretation of the 10th would say that unless the Constitution specifically says the feds have the power to tax and regulate in order to provide free healthcare, then they do not have that power. I don't remember reading about health care in the Federalist Papers anywhere, either. Disagree - that's covered by the common welfare provision. The Declaration of Independence states clearly that we have certain inalienable rights and lists a few. The Xth Amendment leaves the door open for more. Unfortunately the government and the courts seem to have forgotten that the people have any rights at all that the government doesn't give us.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #45 September 24, 2004 QuoteThe Declaration of Independence states clearly that we have certain inalienable rights and lists a few. The Xth Amendment leaves the door open for more. Unfortunately the government and the courts seem to have forgotten that the people have any rights at all that the government doesn't give us. Okay, so because a roof over our head is an inalienable right, everyone should have free housing. Food is pretty damn important too, so I guess my next trip to the grocery store should cost me nothing. Clothes? Water? Sewage systems? All should also be provided to me for free since I have the right to these things. Education is an inalienable right as well. So my 126K student load debt shouldn't exist. Let's be realistic. Those who truly are in need to have systems to provide health care. Medicare, medicaid, med plus, access, blue chip (which covers all kids regardless of income level). Docs doing pro bono work, area health clinics that give free health care by volunteer doctors. Systems exist to provide health care for those who need it. There is no reason that it should be completely free. If you need it, you pay for it, at least what you can. Life is not a free ride with every human need to be handed to us on a silver platter. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EricTheRed 0 #46 September 24, 2004 QuoteOr do you think that society should bear the responsibility of paying for the broken neck/back/leg/etc that you got swooping the pond? It already does. If you break your neck, you call 911. You get treated. If you have insurance, it pays. If not, you pay. What? you can't pay a couple of hundred thousand dollars when you can't work because your neck is broken? Fine. The "system" eats the costs. Which then get paid by "society" at large.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #47 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteOr do you think that society should bear the responsibility of paying for the broken neck/back/leg/etc that you got swooping the pond? It already does. If you break your neck, you call 911. You get treated. If you have insurance, it pays. If not, you pay. What? you can't pay a couple of hundred thousand dollars when you can't work because your neck is broken? Fine. The "system" eats the costs. Which then get paid by "society" at large. Right. It's every bit as socialistic as in Europe, but chaotic rather than organized.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #48 September 24, 2004 QuoteIf not, you pay. What? you can't pay a couple of hundred thousand dollars when you can't work because your neck is broken? Fine. The "system" eats the costs. Which then get paid by "society" at large. And at much greater cost than if it were done through a negotiated benefit plan. And to take that futher, it costs society more overall to pay for the illnesses and injuries of people without insurance than it would if they received life long basic health care to prevent those illnesses in the first place. Edit to add - But we've brought these points up before, and the opposition seems to take the attitude that they don't mind paying MORE overall just as long as they don't have the appearance of giving to others. I tried several times to follow that up with an assumption about why they feel that way, but I honestly can't figure it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ahegeman 0 #49 September 24, 2004 To interpret the "common welfare" statement that broadly essentially makes it meaningless. What can't be justified under that interpretation?--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #50 September 24, 2004 QuoteTo interpret the "common welfare" statement that broadly essentially makes it meaningless. What can't be justified under that interpretation? Buying everyone a new Mercedes? Basic health care seems to fit fairly well with the concept of "common welfare", IMO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
crwmike 0 #30 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuote: "Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income". That is very a socialistic idea. Nowhere in the constitution, or any other governing document do I see anyhing that says we deserve to be healthy, or have a right to medical care. Besides, why should some people work hard to pay for theri own health care and the health care of others? Hmmmm. Would you take the job of turning sick children away cause they don't have insurance? I don't know how well it would pay, but it sounds like you might enjoy the work. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #31 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteit is a business, but it does not give the public a choice in price I call, once again, bullshit. The public CAN shop around for a doctor. In fact, we see it all the time. Most Americans do. That's why they go to their referral list for their insurer. To save money. Anecdote - When I was uninsured and ran a fever of 104.7, I called around to different ER's to check on price. When I showed up, I went to the front of the line and got a discount. Why? Because I had cold hard cash. 60 dollars for the visit, 10 for the shot in the ass, and another 30 for the prescription. reply] I call bullshit. I've worked in over 20 ER's from small, plush, suburban hospitals to mammoth county facilities and this simply doesn't happen ...ever! Your time to treatment is determined by the severity of your illness/injury. It might get lengthened a bit if you really piss me off, but I have never seen or heard of such a thing happening as a cash customer going to the 'front of the line'. Now you can save money on the ER visit to stop your nose from growing, I have an immediate cure for you. ;) Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #32 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo now what do we do with those 41 million uninsured? Why should I have to pay for my insurance and theirs? Why should the gov't (all of us) pay the $80 billion a year to cover their insurance? Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. QuoteTHe Democrats currently claim that its the Big Pharma companies fault. (I agree that the US is getting screwed on Rx). The gov't is the single largest purchaser of medicine. They should use that power to bargain with the pharma companies for better pricing instead of arbitrarily increasing drug expenditures wholesale while allowing the drug companies to raise prices by the same amount or more. QuoteThe republicans say its the lawyers excessive lawsuits and (outrageous) settelements). Also true. Tort reform is needed across the board. 1. The government is specifically prohibited from bargaining with the drug companies under Bush's Medicare act. 2. Bush withheld the cost of the Medicare act from Congress until after the vote. 3. US drug companies are not hurting for profits. In fact they have among the highest profit margins of any US industry. Their profits significantly exceed their research expenditures. They are whining "wolf" when they tell us about how much they have to charge for drugs to pay for the research. 4. A sizeable fraction of the drug R&D is in fact paid for by the government anyway. I love how you make these statements of "Fact" with nothing there to vouch for your claim. The truth is it cost about 1Billion dollars and about 10 yrs to get a new drug to market. How do you make that money back? (See link below) Also, this is capitalism.... There is no monopoly here.... Other companies and countries will get in the fray and prices will drop. Or we could get the government involved and they can overpay, jackup cost, and raise taxes so we all get free drugs.... http://www.forbes.com/sciencesandmedicine/2004/05/28/cz_kd_0528outsourcing.html ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #33 September 23, 2004 QuoteBecause we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. While I agree to a point...That is VERY socialistic thinking. And this country was NOT founded as socialistic. I think it is the responsability to help...But I don't think the answer is to force others to do it. And the government rarely steps in and makes things better. I ahve been to covernment hospitals....NOT what you want for everyone. Tort reform is needed...I find it funny that Edwards made his money off of it, but claims he can help fix the problems."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #34 September 23, 2004 QUOTE: "Insurance companies are a big part of the problem." Yes and no. Insurance premiums are so high because the insurance companies are FORCED by the Leeches, oh excuse me, the LAWYERS and the ignorant juries to pay exorbitant settlements for things that are TRULY accidents. Until the legal profession is reeled in, and Lawyers are not able to profit so exorbitantly from the experiences of others, the problem will continue. Just my HO. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #35 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuote: "Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income". That is very a socialistic idea. Nowhere in the constitution, or any other governing document do I see anyhing that says we deserve to be healthy, or have a right to medical care. Besides, why should some people work hard to pay for theri own health care and the health care of others? The Xth Amendment gives us all kinds of rights. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean we don't have them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #36 September 23, 2004 Quote 1. The government is specifically prohibited from bargaining with the drug companies under Bush's Medicare act. 2. Bush withheld the cost of the Medicare act from Congress until after the vote. 3. US drug companies are not hurting for profits. In fact they have among the highest profit margins of any US industry. Their profits significantly exceed their research expenditures. They are whining "wolf" when they tell us about how much they have to charge for drugs to pay for the research. 4. A sizeable fraction of the drug R&D is in fact paid for by the government anyway. I love how you make these statements of "Fact" with nothing there to vouch for your claim. The truth is it cost about 1Billion dollars and about 10 yrs to get a new drug to market. How do you make that money back? (See link below) Also, this is capitalism.... There is no monopoly here.... Other companies and countries will get in the fray and prices will drop. Or we could get the government involved and they can overpay, jackup cost, and raise taxes so we all get free drugs.... http://www.forbes.com/sciencesandmedicine/2004/05/28/cz_kd_0528outsourcing.html Which particular fact do you dispute? (1) is part of the Act, (2) is well documented, (3) is easy to verify, and (4) is also easy to verify. The Forbes article says nothing that contradicts any of the above.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #32 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo now what do we do with those 41 million uninsured? Why should I have to pay for my insurance and theirs? Why should the gov't (all of us) pay the $80 billion a year to cover their insurance? Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. QuoteTHe Democrats currently claim that its the Big Pharma companies fault. (I agree that the US is getting screwed on Rx). The gov't is the single largest purchaser of medicine. They should use that power to bargain with the pharma companies for better pricing instead of arbitrarily increasing drug expenditures wholesale while allowing the drug companies to raise prices by the same amount or more. QuoteThe republicans say its the lawyers excessive lawsuits and (outrageous) settelements). Also true. Tort reform is needed across the board. 1. The government is specifically prohibited from bargaining with the drug companies under Bush's Medicare act. 2. Bush withheld the cost of the Medicare act from Congress until after the vote. 3. US drug companies are not hurting for profits. In fact they have among the highest profit margins of any US industry. Their profits significantly exceed their research expenditures. They are whining "wolf" when they tell us about how much they have to charge for drugs to pay for the research. 4. A sizeable fraction of the drug R&D is in fact paid for by the government anyway. I love how you make these statements of "Fact" with nothing there to vouch for your claim. The truth is it cost about 1Billion dollars and about 10 yrs to get a new drug to market. How do you make that money back? (See link below) Also, this is capitalism.... There is no monopoly here.... Other companies and countries will get in the fray and prices will drop. Or we could get the government involved and they can overpay, jackup cost, and raise taxes so we all get free drugs.... http://www.forbes.com/sciencesandmedicine/2004/05/28/cz_kd_0528outsourcing.html ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 September 23, 2004 QuoteBecause we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. While I agree to a point...That is VERY socialistic thinking. And this country was NOT founded as socialistic. I think it is the responsability to help...But I don't think the answer is to force others to do it. And the government rarely steps in and makes things better. I ahve been to covernment hospitals....NOT what you want for everyone. Tort reform is needed...I find it funny that Edwards made his money off of it, but claims he can help fix the problems."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #34 September 23, 2004 QUOTE: "Insurance companies are a big part of the problem." Yes and no. Insurance premiums are so high because the insurance companies are FORCED by the Leeches, oh excuse me, the LAWYERS and the ignorant juries to pay exorbitant settlements for things that are TRULY accidents. Until the legal profession is reeled in, and Lawyers are not able to profit so exorbitantly from the experiences of others, the problem will continue. Just my HO. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #35 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuote: "Because we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income". That is very a socialistic idea. Nowhere in the constitution, or any other governing document do I see anyhing that says we deserve to be healthy, or have a right to medical care. Besides, why should some people work hard to pay for theri own health care and the health care of others? The Xth Amendment gives us all kinds of rights. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean we don't have them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #36 September 23, 2004 Quote 1. The government is specifically prohibited from bargaining with the drug companies under Bush's Medicare act. 2. Bush withheld the cost of the Medicare act from Congress until after the vote. 3. US drug companies are not hurting for profits. In fact they have among the highest profit margins of any US industry. Their profits significantly exceed their research expenditures. They are whining "wolf" when they tell us about how much they have to charge for drugs to pay for the research. 4. A sizeable fraction of the drug R&D is in fact paid for by the government anyway. I love how you make these statements of "Fact" with nothing there to vouch for your claim. The truth is it cost about 1Billion dollars and about 10 yrs to get a new drug to market. How do you make that money back? (See link below) Also, this is capitalism.... There is no monopoly here.... Other companies and countries will get in the fray and prices will drop. Or we could get the government involved and they can overpay, jackup cost, and raise taxes so we all get free drugs.... http://www.forbes.com/sciencesandmedicine/2004/05/28/cz_kd_0528outsourcing.html Which particular fact do you dispute? (1) is part of the Act, (2) is well documented, (3) is easy to verify, and (4) is also easy to verify. The Forbes article says nothing that contradicts any of the above.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #37 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteBecause we're all Americans and we all deserve to be healthy if possible and not have our basic healthcare limited by our income. While I agree to a point...That is VERY socialistic thinking. And this country was NOT founded as socialistic. I think it is the responsability to help...But I don't think the answer is to force others to do it. And the government rarely steps in and makes things better. I ahve been to covernment hospitals....NOT what you want for everyone. Tort reform is needed...I find it funny that Edwards made his money off of it, but claims he can help fix the problems. Yup. The AME who gave me my FAA medical is so hard pressed by his insurance premiums that he can hardly afford to keep his Stearman, Bonanza, and Cessna 310 flying, let alone keep his own private airport in operation. If his premiums go up any more he'll have to start working three days a week instead of the two he works now.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #38 September 23, 2004 QuoteAnecdote - When I was uninsured and ran a fever of 104.7, I called around to different ER's to check on price. When I showed up, I went to the front of the line and got a discount. Why? Because I had cold hard cash. 60 dollars for the visit, 10 for the shot in the ass, and another 30 for the prescription. If you let most places know you are paying cash and have no insurance, they will cut you a break. Charge you for a lower code/level of visit, etc. They will still get as much for your $100 than the $260 bill to the insurance company that may pay $100 if they are lucky. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #39 September 23, 2004 QuoteHmmmm. Would you take the job of turning sick children away cause they don't have insurance? I don't know how well it would pay, but it sounds like you might enjoy the work. I'm seeing a kid in a few hours who has no insurance, her parents are total losers and won't get her any form of health care, and she has been in remedial classes for YEARS even though she has failed every eye test thrown at her and has told a lot of people that she can't see what is on the page. I just found out about it. Free exam and free glasses today. I just about cried when I heard that story from her youth group leader. Docs get into the field for the most part because we truly do care. And most of us can't stand to turn someone away who truly needs the help. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #40 September 23, 2004 QuoteI call bullshit. I've worked in over 20 ER's from small, plush, suburban hospitals to mammoth county facilities and this simply doesn't happen ...ever! Well, it did. Then again, 104.7 fever trumps the earaches. But you also have a point. Coming from someone familiar with the terms "low census" and good insurance, I know how things operate on that end, as well. Why the heck was I in and out of that ER in 25 minutes? Others were waiting. Sure, the doctor had me open my mouth, say "AH" and said only two words, "Big time." Quick, efficient, and easy. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahegeman 0 #41 September 24, 2004 QuoteThe Xth Amendment gives us all kinds of rights. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean we don't have them. Oh, come on, Kallend. You're smarter than that. The 10th Amendment isn't gonna help you out on this one. It simply limits the powers of the federal government to those specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Of course, most of the shit the government does nowadays violates that amendment, but who's keeping track? A literal interpretation of the 10th would say that unless the Constitution specifically says the feds have the power to tax and regulate in order to provide free healthcare, then they do not have that power. I don't remember reading about health care in the Federalist Papers anywhere, either.--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahegeman 0 #42 September 24, 2004 It boggles my mind that skydivers, of all people, would advocate free, government provided health care. How close behind do you think rules regulating dangerous behavior would follow in the name of cost-savings? Or do you think that society should bear the responsibility of paying for the broken neck/back/leg/etc that you got swooping the pond?--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #43 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteI call bullshit. I've worked in over 20 ER's from small, plush, suburban hospitals to mammoth county facilities and this simply doesn't happen ...ever! QuoteWell, it did. Then again, 104.7 fever trumps the earaches. I'll give you that. That fever (in an adult) can cause all sorts of lasting neurological dysfunction ...oh, never mind. I get it now. QuoteBut you also have a point. Coming from someone familiar with the terms "low census" and good insurance, I know how things operate on that end, as well. Yep, on admissions, that used to happen from time to time QuoteWhy the heck was I in and out of that ER in 25 minutes? Others were waiting. Sure, the doctor had me open my mouth, say "AH" and said only two words, "Big time." Quick, efficient, and easy. The 105 temp would have done it if the people waiting were boo-boo and band-aid types. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #44 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe Xth Amendment gives us all kinds of rights. Just because they are not explicitly mentioned does not mean we don't have them. Oh, come on, Kallend. You're smarter than that. The 10th Amendment isn't gonna help you out on this one. It simply limits the powers of the federal government to those specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Of course, most of the shit the government does nowadays violates that amendment, but who's keeping track? A literal interpretation of the 10th would say that unless the Constitution specifically says the feds have the power to tax and regulate in order to provide free healthcare, then they do not have that power. I don't remember reading about health care in the Federalist Papers anywhere, either. Disagree - that's covered by the common welfare provision. The Declaration of Independence states clearly that we have certain inalienable rights and lists a few. The Xth Amendment leaves the door open for more. Unfortunately the government and the courts seem to have forgotten that the people have any rights at all that the government doesn't give us.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #45 September 24, 2004 QuoteThe Declaration of Independence states clearly that we have certain inalienable rights and lists a few. The Xth Amendment leaves the door open for more. Unfortunately the government and the courts seem to have forgotten that the people have any rights at all that the government doesn't give us. Okay, so because a roof over our head is an inalienable right, everyone should have free housing. Food is pretty damn important too, so I guess my next trip to the grocery store should cost me nothing. Clothes? Water? Sewage systems? All should also be provided to me for free since I have the right to these things. Education is an inalienable right as well. So my 126K student load debt shouldn't exist. Let's be realistic. Those who truly are in need to have systems to provide health care. Medicare, medicaid, med plus, access, blue chip (which covers all kids regardless of income level). Docs doing pro bono work, area health clinics that give free health care by volunteer doctors. Systems exist to provide health care for those who need it. There is no reason that it should be completely free. If you need it, you pay for it, at least what you can. Life is not a free ride with every human need to be handed to us on a silver platter. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #46 September 24, 2004 QuoteOr do you think that society should bear the responsibility of paying for the broken neck/back/leg/etc that you got swooping the pond? It already does. If you break your neck, you call 911. You get treated. If you have insurance, it pays. If not, you pay. What? you can't pay a couple of hundred thousand dollars when you can't work because your neck is broken? Fine. The "system" eats the costs. Which then get paid by "society" at large.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #47 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteOr do you think that society should bear the responsibility of paying for the broken neck/back/leg/etc that you got swooping the pond? It already does. If you break your neck, you call 911. You get treated. If you have insurance, it pays. If not, you pay. What? you can't pay a couple of hundred thousand dollars when you can't work because your neck is broken? Fine. The "system" eats the costs. Which then get paid by "society" at large. Right. It's every bit as socialistic as in Europe, but chaotic rather than organized.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #48 September 24, 2004 QuoteIf not, you pay. What? you can't pay a couple of hundred thousand dollars when you can't work because your neck is broken? Fine. The "system" eats the costs. Which then get paid by "society" at large. And at much greater cost than if it were done through a negotiated benefit plan. And to take that futher, it costs society more overall to pay for the illnesses and injuries of people without insurance than it would if they received life long basic health care to prevent those illnesses in the first place. Edit to add - But we've brought these points up before, and the opposition seems to take the attitude that they don't mind paying MORE overall just as long as they don't have the appearance of giving to others. I tried several times to follow that up with an assumption about why they feel that way, but I honestly can't figure it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahegeman 0 #49 September 24, 2004 To interpret the "common welfare" statement that broadly essentially makes it meaningless. What can't be justified under that interpretation?--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #50 September 24, 2004 QuoteTo interpret the "common welfare" statement that broadly essentially makes it meaningless. What can't be justified under that interpretation? Buying everyone a new Mercedes? Basic health care seems to fit fairly well with the concept of "common welfare", IMO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
