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Gralala 0
Being associated with the military, being married to a former military officer who has served in Bosnia and Iraq, and Iraq as a civilian with the Army, this is a subject that always gets my blood boiling. People in this nation need to look at all the liberties/freedoms they have and look who has stood by to protect those freedoms. These soldiers all are fighting for us to keep our freedoms. Until 9-11 this country didn't have a clue what it was to live in fear every time they got on an airplane, got on a bus, or walked down the street. That's why our men and women are in Iraq fighting, even if they don't agree with everything they have to do. It's to keep the fight over there instead of the streets here. My grandfather served in WWII and never was the same person after returning, but he was proud to serve his country and was buried in his dress uniform.
Sorry to rant and rave, as I said strong passions and opinions about draft dodgers.
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
Sorry to rant and rave, as I said strong passions and opinions about draft dodgers.
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
Gralala 0
True, but there are places for everyone from the cooks, to the chaplains to the infantry men to the tank drivers. They are all a very integral part of the team. Having the inside track on the military tends to open your eyes.
Toby Keith's song "American Soldier" speaks of the sacrifice these men and women pay every day of the year.
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
Toby Keith's song "American Soldier" speaks of the sacrifice these men and women pay every day of the year.
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
My brother used to say the same thing to me. He is no longer the person I knew while growing up - his four years with the Marines changed him into a person I no longer know. His viewpoints are extreme, and sometimes border on scary. The military and the training he had helped him devalue and dehumanize others, and that didn't stop the day he left the service.
I understand the need and the place for the military. I have family and friends in it right now. I had relatives that fought against oppression and occupation in Ireland in the very early 1900s. I've heard plenty of stories. However, those people made the choice to serve. It was their free will that brought them there. A draft works against this. Why are freedom forces the hardest groups to defeat? They have the passion and belief - and they want to be there. When you force someone into service you get the crimes that were well documented in Vietnam.
Growing up in a family that had plenty of military types in it, I got to hear stories. The fact that serving could never be an option for me allowed me to look at the service from another perspective. A good portion of my papers in college were on the "neccessary evil" of the military and I interviewed quite a bunch for my study on communication and non verbal communication in the military as well. Do I have the inside track? Nope. Do I respect that people have defended this country - without a doubt.
However, I see more bad, than good out of time spent in the military and I have plenty of studies to help with that argument.
I would never volunteer myself to be a part of that. All subcultures claim a very unique bond - even as skydivers we do it. Why? To feel special and unique and better than others. Gangs say the same thing, as do the kids in band camp.
I understand the need and the place for the military. I have family and friends in it right now. I had relatives that fought against oppression and occupation in Ireland in the very early 1900s. I've heard plenty of stories. However, those people made the choice to serve. It was their free will that brought them there. A draft works against this. Why are freedom forces the hardest groups to defeat? They have the passion and belief - and they want to be there. When you force someone into service you get the crimes that were well documented in Vietnam.
Growing up in a family that had plenty of military types in it, I got to hear stories. The fact that serving could never be an option for me allowed me to look at the service from another perspective. A good portion of my papers in college were on the "neccessary evil" of the military and I interviewed quite a bunch for my study on communication and non verbal communication in the military as well. Do I have the inside track? Nope. Do I respect that people have defended this country - without a doubt.
However, I see more bad, than good out of time spent in the military and I have plenty of studies to help with that argument.
I would never volunteer myself to be a part of that. All subcultures claim a very unique bond - even as skydivers we do it. Why? To feel special and unique and better than others. Gangs say the same thing, as do the kids in band camp.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
I think it's very noble of people who serve and those that believed Vietnam was a worthy cause and served deserve respect for standing up for their convictions.
But I don't have a problem with those who believed it was unjust either. Because again, they were doing what they believed was right.
The only people who I find undeserving of respect are those who supported the war, but avoided service anyway. People like Rumsfeld, Cheney, Ashcroft and Bush.
But I don't have a problem with those who believed it was unjust either. Because again, they were doing what they believed was right.
The only people who I find undeserving of respect are those who supported the war, but avoided service anyway. People like Rumsfeld, Cheney, Ashcroft and Bush.
QuoteQuoteNazi immigrants still live there unpunished
The US took their share of Nazi immigrants, they went unpunished as well, hell they even paid them lots of money to make your crappy ICBMs.
Yeah, I had one for my German teacher in Jr High. He used to tell us stories about his days in the Hitler Youth. Kinda weird old guy then.
I guess he wasn't bright enough to be a rocket scientist...
illegible usually
So you post extreme views...and then when people challenge you on them you flip-flop and say they were'nt your views?
Hmmmm. Very interesting.
Forty-two
Hmmmm. Very interesting.
Forty-two
wmw999 2,527
I lived in Brazil during the early 1970's, when terrorism was pretty noticeable, and a far bigger problem than it is here in the US right now. I think I do have some idea.
We have had 2 major incidents of provably foreign-caused terrorism on US soil (the WTC both times) that I can think of. We have had at least as many that were caused by US citizens (Unabomber, OK City, and a whole lot of anti-Black and anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim stuff that's more minor).
We do not, under any circumstances, have a corner on the victims-of-terrorism market. And while the hie-to-your leader viewpoint may be good if you're in the military and fighting, it's not what the US is based on.
How exactly were my freedoms preserved by people going to Vietnam? Would the Chinese have ended up on our doorsteps? We have no way of knowing. And Vietnam, with two governments, one of which was asking for our help, was to me more justifiable as a war than Iraq.
We went into Iraq because we don't like Saddam Hussein, and he pissed on us. Muammar Qaddafi had sponsored more known terrorist attacks, and he's a government. We have to be more mature as a country than to decide, somewhat arbitrarily, that other countries can't thumb their noses at us.
It's one thing if they attack, or are demonstrably harboring attackers (e.g. AlQaida and Afghanistan). It's another if we just really don't like them and they're assholes. $25,000 to the families of Palestinian bombers in Israel is not a threat to the US. It's despicable, but it's also probably not much of an incentive to people to bomb ("honey, it'd really help the family if you were to go kill yourself").
I guess what I'm saying here is that I reject the premise that whatever the President decides is right. And I will defend my right to do that.
Wendy W.
Edited to add -- if I could have figured out a way to get the kitchen sink in this post, I probably would have
We have had 2 major incidents of provably foreign-caused terrorism on US soil (the WTC both times) that I can think of. We have had at least as many that were caused by US citizens (Unabomber, OK City, and a whole lot of anti-Black and anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim stuff that's more minor).
We do not, under any circumstances, have a corner on the victims-of-terrorism market. And while the hie-to-your leader viewpoint may be good if you're in the military and fighting, it's not what the US is based on.
How exactly were my freedoms preserved by people going to Vietnam? Would the Chinese have ended up on our doorsteps? We have no way of knowing. And Vietnam, with two governments, one of which was asking for our help, was to me more justifiable as a war than Iraq.
We went into Iraq because we don't like Saddam Hussein, and he pissed on us. Muammar Qaddafi had sponsored more known terrorist attacks, and he's a government. We have to be more mature as a country than to decide, somewhat arbitrarily, that other countries can't thumb their noses at us.
It's one thing if they attack, or are demonstrably harboring attackers (e.g. AlQaida and Afghanistan). It's another if we just really don't like them and they're assholes. $25,000 to the families of Palestinian bombers in Israel is not a threat to the US. It's despicable, but it's also probably not much of an incentive to people to bomb ("honey, it'd really help the family if you were to go kill yourself").
I guess what I'm saying here is that I reject the premise that whatever the President decides is right. And I will defend my right to do that.
Wendy W.
Edited to add -- if I could have figured out a way to get the kitchen sink in this post, I probably would have
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
gemini 0
Quotesee more bad, than good out of time spent in the military and I have plenty of studies to help with that argument.
I would like to see those studies! I don't recall how many served in WWII, but they rebuilt this country after a war and depression that were pretty devastating even though the US did not suffer like Europe and the rest of the world.
I suspect that most of the studies you are referring to are flawed from bias since the authors probably were not independent observers, but were against the war prior to performing the "study".
Did your brother really change that much? Or has your viewpoint politically changed as you've gotten older? If you have moved to the left more than he has moved to the right, the change would appear more drastic, but is it all really his change?
Granted there are many cases where veterans have become more extreme in their views (re: Tim McVey), but their basic beliefs were there all the time. A violent, unstable person who serves in the military comes out of the military as a violent, unstable person who knows how to kill.
One final point. Many members of the military unfortnately have to serve in third world countries where the respect for life is nil, filth, disease and corruption abound. After living under these conditions, it makes you angry when you return to the states and find that most Americans don't appreciate what they have and the sacrifices it takes to maintain their way of life. Especially when the bitching is coming from people who should know better.
Blue skies,
Jim
Quoteit makes you angry when you return to the states and find that most Americans don't appreciate what they have and the sacrifices it takes to maintain their way of life.
That's a problem with your perception. Most people, myself included, do appreciate the efforts of those who serve in the military. We don't appreciate our gov't putting you in harms way when it's unnecessary.
Actually his change was the catalyst that encouraged me to research more into it. Yes, it was that dramatic. I won't go into more family stuff here...but it was dramatic. As far as me? I've never been left or right - I've always been open minded and unafraid to ask the hard questions and listen to both sides and consider that not everything that has been told to me was truth.Quote
Did your brother really change that much? Or has your viewpoint politically changed as you've gotten older? If you have moved to the left more than he has moved to the right, the change would appear more drastic, but is it all really his change?
Here are two studies I listed in another post today:
http://www.ncptsd.org/publications/cq/v4/n3/schwartz.html
http://www.southernstudies.org/reports/Hidden%20Casualties-new.htm
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
QuoteQuoteit makes you angry when you return to the states and find that most Americans don't appreciate what they have and the sacrifices it takes to maintain their way of life.
That's a problem with your perception. Most people, myself included, do appreciate the efforts of those who serve in the military. We don't appreciate our gov't putting you in harms way when it's unnecessary.
Well said Kev.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
Trent 0
QuoteWe don't appreciate our gov't putting you in harms way when it's unnecessary.
When is it unnecessary? Was Vietnam unnecessary since it was so far away, or was it important to help the South against a growing tide of Asian communism? If the Chinese and Russians had been able to just walk through Asia without having a few fights on their hands (Korea too) would they have been a serious threat to the US and the world later? Similarly, would Iraq have developed into a threat with the rising tide of mid-east extremism? Would they have used this "jihad" mentality to support attacks and terrorism against the US and others? Maybe... and probably, in my opinion.
It sounds like you're arguing that in hindsight a war may have seemed unnecessary because nothing ever happened after... but maybe that's EXACTLY why it was necessary... to stop something that might have happened.
Do you really come from the wait-till-something-terrible-happens-before-we-react camp? Or how about the don't-nip-things-in-the-bud-maybe-they-want-to-be-friends camp?
Argue that point till you're blue in the face... you'll always have someone disagree and they'll have AT LEAST just as valid a case as you.
Oh, hello again!
Quotethe don't-nip-things-in-the-bud-maybe-they-want-to-be-friends camp?
Isn't that what we are doing with Sudan and N Korea?
QuoteArgue that point till you're blue in the face... you'll always have someone disagree and they'll have AT LEAST just as valid a case as you.
Very true.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
wmw999 2,527
Quotethe don't-nip-things-in-the-bud-maybe-they-want-to-be-friends camp?
QuoteIsn't that what we are doing with Sudan and N Korea?
And Libya. Seems to be working there, too. Of course, it did take longer than 12 years
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
QuoteWe don't appreciate our gov't putting you in harms way when it's unnecessary.
- Taking away a viscious, brutal, murderous dictator
- Ensuring Iraq will not attack us using NBC weapons.
- Removing a dictator who was in contact with terrorist organizations and refused to allow UN inspectors to do their job.
- Allowing Iraq to finally be free.
Calling these reasons for going to war "unnecessary" is yet another reason I'm glad to not be aligned with the liberals.
It's like the old saying goes...Say No To War (unless it's a democratic president).
Forty-two
Gralala 0
Jim, I knew I liked you for more than skydiving skills!
I totally agree "One final point. Many members of the military unfortnately have to serve in third world countries where the respect for life is nil, filth, disease and corruption abound. After living under these conditions, it makes you angry when you return to the states and find that most Americans don't appreciate what they have and the sacrifices it takes to maintain their way of life."
One of my biggest pet peeves is that because the military has to be so politically correct all the time to satisfy the bureaucrats and the general public, our women and men are over in other countries getting killed right and left. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with things like Abu Graib (sp) and killing of innocent bystanders... No civilized person does... Yet we are in a war! (Despite the fact it supposedly ended over a year ago)
Another soapbox is, okay so if these countries hate us "Americans" so darned much, why do they come here to seek out all the privileges and "excesses" they say they despise??
That's a whole new can of worms! 
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
I totally agree "One final point. Many members of the military unfortnately have to serve in third world countries where the respect for life is nil, filth, disease and corruption abound. After living under these conditions, it makes you angry when you return to the states and find that most Americans don't appreciate what they have and the sacrifices it takes to maintain their way of life."
One of my biggest pet peeves is that because the military has to be so politically correct all the time to satisfy the bureaucrats and the general public, our women and men are over in other countries getting killed right and left. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with things like Abu Graib (sp) and killing of innocent bystanders... No civilized person does... Yet we are in a war! (Despite the fact it supposedly ended over a year ago)
Another soapbox is, okay so if these countries hate us "Americans" so darned much, why do they come here to seek out all the privileges and "excesses" they say they despise??
That's a whole new can of worms! "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
If you appreciate the efforts of our men and women put in harms way even though you feel a war is unjust, would you consider helping them as a combat medic? Conscientious objectors have done this.
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.
Gralala 0
One of my points exactly. Or even better yet, how about all the people who joined the military because they could get a "free" education through GI Bills and other govermental aid? So many began protesting having to do the jobs they were trained and being paid for. But I am getting way off subject.
I don't like the idea of a draft, I have a 14 year old son, but should he ever be called up I'm pretty sure he'd serve his country. Not a President, or specific Congress and sure as heck hopefully not the UN.. (another story)
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
I don't like the idea of a draft, I have a 14 year old son, but should he ever be called up I'm pretty sure he'd serve his country. Not a President, or specific Congress and sure as heck hopefully not the UN.. (another story)
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller
QuoteIf you appreciate the efforts of our men and women put in harms way even though you feel a war is unjust, would you consider helping them as a combat medic? Conscientious objectors have done this.
Would I consider that - yes. But I would never join the military.
The funny thing about military pride and telling me I don't understand? In the end I don't care. I didn't ask you to join, it was your own choice. I didn't ask you to defend me, that was your choice. I'm sure the paycheck and possible career didn't factor in at all when you made your choice. I appreciate the fact that you are there - but I should not have to suffer guilt because you made a choice. My family members made that choice, my cousin choose to be a UN Peacekeeper in Bosnia for years. All thier choice.
A draft is not a choice. A president should make plans with what he has, as should the DOD. To pull away the children from our country and to send them to a war they wouldn't send thier own children to? Forget it, no way in hell. I would send my own child to Canada if he said that was his choice. But only if it was his choice.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
QuoteQuotethe don't-nip-things-in-the-bud-maybe-they-want-to-be-friends camp?
QuoteIsn't that what we are doing with Sudan and N Korea?
And Libya. Seems to be working there, too. Of course, it did take longer than 12 years
Wendy W.
Then there was Pol Pot.
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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
I think "perspective" is the word you are looking for.
I've always had a problem with the draft. IF the war was such a good cause and needed, then there would have been the mass influx of recruits like there were after Pearl Harbor. We have the right to choose in this country, and the freedom of speech. It was ok to speak out against the war and violence, but if you did anything active to show how much you didn't want to go you were a coward.
I never would have had a chance to be part of any draft due to a medical condition and the fact that I was in the seminary during the first Gulf War (when thier were rumors of a draft). I believed in why we were going to fight - but I would never have volunteered to go. Violence just isn't a part of who I am at any level.
Honor? Coward? I don't see those as words for those people. They made a choice, a very active choice. Some may have done it just out of fear, others may have done it out of beliefs. Who are you to judge them?
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....
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