Canada Honors US Draft Dodgers

[billvon 2,991]

>I think we should use our freedom of choice to boycott that jackoff
>town and any products it produces.

I don't get that. In the 1860's, a group of insurgents in the south of the US started an uprising and killed over 100,000 US soldiers. Surely that is far worse than Canada's providing a haven for draft dodgers. Yet few people boycott cities in the south that celebrate their confederate heritage. It's part of their history, just as being a haven for draft dodgers is part of the Canadian's history.

[gemini 0]

Yes Bill but in the South it's still US and up there it's those damn Canadians eh!

Blue skies,

Jim

[billvon 2,991]

> Yes Bill but in the South it's still US and up there it's those damn Canadians eh!

Well, there's the answer then! We just annex that town, and it becomes a quaint local custom . . .

[gemini 0]

Blue skies,

Jim

[mccurley 1]

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Does Canada honor one person helping another who is selling him drugs?

How the hell do you get from protesting the war and disagreeing with gov't policy about a war which by all accounts most Americans came to disagree with to dealing drugs such as crack or heroin?

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Does Canada honor one person helping another who is driving getaway for a robbery?

This response is at best is knee jerk and at worse plain stupid

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Does Canada honor one person helping another who is laundering illegal money?

see above!

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I could go on with my list of felonies, but in my mind none of them are as low as deserting your country when it calls for your help.

Low as in your opinion,

Giving away your life for a cause you don't belive in is not hounourable and serves little purpose. And I don't intend that statement as slander to the good men and women who willingly gave of themselves in the same conflict. I have nothing but admiration for those that did and feel they have been treated very shabily since.

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You call it help, I call it aiding and abetting a felon.

You call it what you like, I was friends with some of those draft dodgers and with some who went to Viet Nam. The fact remains that in a free country the system of drafting younge people into the service to unwillingly give thier lives for a cause they don't believe in is wrong.
If your country feels strongly enough as a whole to go to war, as they have in many conflicts, you wouldn't need the draft and would therefore not have draft dodgers seeking refuge in Canada, and elsewhere for that mater.
I think the real criminals here are the legislators who send other peoples sons to war when they know they will never have to make the sacrifice themselves and ways and means of keeping thier own sons safe from the fate they impose on others. Arn't you guys supposed to be the land of the Freee?

Watch my video Fat Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI

[wmw999 2,445]

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We just annex that town,

Ah -- the best part of that is the gemini lives in the Houston area, and Houston is VERY experienced in annexing barely-contiguous areas.

We should be able to get their lawyers working on it right away, as long as there's a good tax base in it

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gemini 0]

Wendy's right Bill. Some of the Houston annexations look like snakes along a freeway since they are only as wide as the easement until they get to the area Houston wants to gobble up. Not an issue for this thread, but when a city annexes an area shouldn't the city pick up basic services like fire and police protection, sewer, etc.

Blue skies,

Jim

[Gralala 0]

To further your point on this line of thought.. How many of these conscientious objectors fail to show up to the polls and try to vote and change things? We all love to gripe about the government and how it should be changed and what a lousy job this one or that one does... I've heard so many people complain that their vote doesn't really count..

As far as the troops in the field, it's very true.. Look at history, the men and women from Vietnam are prime examples... We may not agree with what's going on but support the men and women doing their jobs.. Not running away from them...

"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller

[larskjargaard 0]

Just to clean up the facts here, I'd like to share what was discussed on CBC radio last night.
A small group of People in the Nelson area wish to erect statue, celebrating people who chose not to support something they did not feel was right and the people who supported their choices.
The town of Nelson has decided not to let this statue be erected despite the groups eagerness.

Stating that "Canada honors US draft dogers" is wrong. A small group of people are honoring them within Canadian borders. To call them cowards and turn tails means that you fully understand them, there views, specific situations and the time in which these events took place. We all see things differently, I don't get how everyone can pass judgment on them.

[gemini 0]

Let's see:

1. The draft was legal and had been since WWII in the US.
2. All men had to register at their 18th birthday.
3. The war in Vietnam started in 1954 for the US although it had actually been going prior to WWII without major US involvement until after 1945.
4. Many men upon registering for the draft declared themselves concientious objectors.
5. Each person drafted was selected by a local draft board and sent a letter requesting them to report for a physical and induction in accordance with the law.
6. Men who were married, had certain occupations, were in school, were in the National Guard or Reserves, and those who were not physically qualified were given various permanent and temporary exemptions.

Looks to me like those who fled were dodging the draft, so I would call them draft dodgers.

As I said earlier the majority of these quys were not protesting the war, but they were afraid they might be maimed or killed so they ran away.

Cassius Clay (later known as Mohammed Ali) was a true war protester. When he was drafted, I believe he fought it by registering as a concientious objector under religious grounds. He did not flee the country. Granted it was an expensive fight and almost cost him his career, but he stood his ground.

A true war protestor would have stated his beliefs and fought for them especially since all of us knew at the time that if you received the "Greetings..." letter you would probably end up eventually in Vietnam.

It became politically correct to protest the war in the late 60's, so the media started calling them war protestors instead of draft dodgers.

It's very similar to what is happening today where various terrorists are labeled as rebels, freedom fighters, etc. by the media.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it is a damn duck.

Blue skies,

Jim

[turtlespeed 220]

Why am I not surprised?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,445]

What -- so you're saying that a bunch of Americans, during political silly season, took something out of context and jumped all over it?



Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mccurley 1]

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1. The draft was legal and had been since WWII in the US.

That dosn't make it right. Slavery used to be legal as well.

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were afraid they might be maimed or killed so they ran away.

Can't say as I blame them.

As for Ali Your gov't called him a liar, said he was becoming a musslim as nothing more then an excusse to avoid the war, and threw him in jail!!

My memory of the times may be clouded as I wasn't directly involved and was young enough not to really care what you guys where doing south of the border, But I believe prison was again the fate of many who chose not to do miltary service, and like the draft that so many protested this was just wrong.

It can be legal and at the same time morally wrong can it not?

Watch my video Fat Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI

[Gralala 0]

Like Gemini stated, Ali had a long fight, but he stayed here and fought. Even if some chose to stay here and be jailed, at least they didn't turn tail and run trying to avoid service. I can have more respoect for someone who served their time, even if I don't agree with why they made their decision.

I wonder what would have happened all these years later if those DDs were extradited and serve their time.

"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller

[Jimbo 0]

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But I believe prison was again the fate of many who chose not to do miltary service,

As it should be.

I don't know that there is an American citizen who hasn't registered with the Selective Service on or before his 18th birthday. Every American citizen knows, or should know, that there is a possibility that he might be called upon to serve his country. Serve his country, the country that provides him freedom. Serve his country, the country that provides him shelter from many of the world's ills. Serve his country, the country that provides him a standard of living higher than probably any other country on this planet. Serve his country, the country that has vowed to take care of him when he is unable to do so. Serve his country . . .

The point is, living in the United States isn't free. There is ALWAYS the possibility that we might be called upon to serve, and whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, it is our duty to do so. There's a price to pay for all that we enjoy; fortunately, most of us will never be called on to repay that debt, but when we are, it is our duty to pay it back in full.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[rickjump1 0]

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But I believe prison was again the fate of many who chose not to do miltary service,

As it should be.

I don't know that there is an American citizen who hasn't registered with the Selective Service on or before his 18th birthday. Every American citizen knows, or should know, that there is a possibility that he might be called up to serve his country. Serve his country, the country that provides him freedom. Serve his country, the country that provides him shelter from many of the world's ills. Serve his country, the country that provides him a standard of living higher than probably any other country on this planet. Serve his country, his country that has vowed to take care of him when he is unable to do so. Serve his country . . .

The point is, living in the United States isn't free. There is ALWAYS the possibility that we might be called upon to serve, and whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, it is our duty to do so. There's a price to pay for all that we enjoy; fortunately, most of us will never be called on to repay that debt, but when we are, it is our duty to pay it back in full.

-
Jim

This is good stuff. Our kids are so busy taking standardized tests that they are not taught the responsibility of being an American nor the cost. Many grow up never understanding that they could in fact get an invitation from Uncle Sam. New immigrants should throughly understand this.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Gralala 0]

"This is good stuff. Our kids are so busy taking standardized tests that they are not taught the responsibility of being an American nor the cost."

Wow that's another whole thread... Instead of teaching kids the material, the teachers spend half the year teaching the kids the test.

Responsibility, well that's another issue. Despite most parents best efforts to teach this fastly fading trait characteristic our society keeps telling us and our children that nothing is their fault and they shouldn't suffer any consequences. It's the parents fault, it's the teachers fault, it's society or the government..Never the childs fault... Thus giving us such a good base of responsible citizens in the first place!

Cost, there is a cost to be an American? I thought everything was a right in this country! I deserve everything without making an effort to earn it myself, or heaven forbid even remotely deserve it.. It's my responsibility to have to buy my kid a car at age 16, a cell phone by age 12, designer clothes and shoes! My poor kids should be considered underprivileged, as they actually know what these things cost, because I made them do chores and earn the money for what they have received. Taught responsibility, even if it hurt a little bit.. Wow I'm a child abuser.. Report me!

Wendy, I think i got the kitchen sink and the disposal in on that one.

"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller

[gemini 0]

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That dosn't make it right. Slavery used to be legal as well

But it was the law at the time and could be legally enforced.

Slavery is off topic, but it was legal prior to 1865 in some states and it took a war to get it changed.

And during that war, the draft was instituted and someone who received a draft notice could pay someone else to take their place. This practice was not "right" either, but it was accepted at the time.

A country must have laws. Not all of them are "right" or equitable or fair to all citizens of that country, but hopefully overtime changes will be made that are for the good of the country. Without laws you have anarchy; even with laws if they are all ignored by the oilice or the citizens you have anarchy.

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Can't say as I blame them.

I understand their fear, but cannot condone their cowardice. We all were in fear at the time and would have rather stayed with our families and friends. Some went on to the military and did their jobs, some resisted and were prosecuted or given alternative government service, and some fled the country. All were afraid.

Ali was man enough to stand firmly behind his beliefs and he eventually prevailed. I can respect him for that. I cannot ever respect a man who fled his country for any reason.

You are correct, it can be legal and morally wrong at the same time. But I would fight to change something I believed to be morally wrong, not flee and hid leaving the problem to others to deal with.

Again the draft dogers were not protesting the war. This is media hype. They were afraid to die and left the country. As far as I am concerned they should not have been given amnesty either.

Blue skies,

Jim

[larskjargaard 0]

I agree with you in part. Yes it was the law at the time and yes I do admire Ali for what he did but do you think that if Ali was'nt Ali you would feel the same way about him. Law or no law if a country tries to force one into a situation where they are to kill another or be killed for an agenda he or she strongly disagree with, and a choice is made to leave a country where this is acceptable, can we judge them?
My point is that maybe someone simply does not have it in them to take another life or support something they strongly disagree with.They then have a choice of selling themselves and their views out,going to the joint,or having to leave the country trying to force then into war situations. If you lived in Germany prior and during ww2 and were called upon fufill your "duities" and it were legaly binding would you?
For all I know most dogers were absolute chickenshit snakes but I don't think that they all were. I know a few and have met a few who are fine people and know what they had to give up in order to stand up for their views.

[turtlespeed 220]

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I understand their fear, but cannot condone their cowardice.

I can't do either!

I was in the military, enlisted before Desert shield and storm, I had a nice cushy job for a while working for the Chaplain. He and I BOTH sent in request forms to be moved to the front lines for action. I was dissapointed every time they came back denied.

Buncha fuckin' pussies!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[gemini 0]

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would feel the same way about him

Yes. He stood up and stated his beliefs and was willing to suffer the consequences of those beliefs.

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can we judge them

Yes because they didn't give a damn about what was going to happen to the rest of us.

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My point is that maybe someone simply does not have it in them to take another life

I agree with your point, but if they sincerely believe they will fight for their beliefs not run and hide.

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If you lived in Germany prior and during ww2 and were called upon fufill your "duities" and it were legaly binding would you?

If I believed in them I would, if I didn't I would be willing to be executed for my beliefs.

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For all I know most dogers were absolute chickenshit snakes but I don't think that they all were.

The ones that lied, ran and hide ARE chickenshit snakes and cannot be trusted. The ones that stood up, voiced their opinion and defended their beliefs, I trust and respect.

This of course includes former presidents!

Blue skies,

Jim

[wmw999 2,445]

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If you lived in Germany prior and during ww2 and were called upon fufill your "duities" and it were legaly binding would you?

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If I believed in them I would, if I didn't I would be willing to be executed for my beliefs.

So in other words, you would not have left Germany if you disagreed with the government? I hope I'm misunderstanding here, because I don't think it's disgraceful to align yourself with a country that you think is more in tune with your values. That's what immigrants do all the time.

Are the political refugees who come to the US the same also?

Personally, I think there's more gray in there, and, well, I'm hoping you think so too... Just because you're such a nice guy ya know
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gemini 0]

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you would not have left Germany if you disagreed with the government?

I didn't say that. If prior to my "draft" I felt I needed to leave due to what was going on I would and if I had a family I would take them too.

In fact, my family fled Syria due to Islamic persecution in the 1890's (We were members of the Christian minority).

However, if I had received my "draft" notice I would have fought the system with every ounce of my strength because that would be the only way I could give the next guy some hope that he could also fight and win.

Wendy, immigration because you want to better your life is different than hiding from the draft or any other law your home country has you may disagree with.

Look at the dz. We have a number of foreign nationals who disagree with the current regime in their home country so they came to the US to live and work. Nothing wrong with that and I admire them for giving up family, friends and other to start a new life.

I guess the position I am taking is that in Texas terms someday we all may have to draw a line in the sand and stand and fight for what we believe.

The guys that fled to Canada did not fight for their beliefs. I believe that they fled from fear and abandoned those of us who were left to take their place. Was that fair to us?

Blue skies,

Jim

[wmw999 2,445]

I understand more of what you're saying. I'm not sure I agree with some of the qualifying words , but thanks for saying it that way.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[larskjargaard 0]

I do see your point but what the hell would a young guy (your average young 18yr old) do? You cant fight it because its the law. All your peers will shun you (as I understand this was very frowned upon).If your not Ali maybe "the joint" is'nt the most stable eviornment to be in.
What I'm trying to say is that alot of people were forced to make tough choices and repositioning your self on the globe was good option for a number of people or at lest the best for them at the time.