gemini 0 #1 October 1, 2004 Although we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. The following was just received: By Thomas P. Cadmus "Thousands of Christians from the remote central highlands of Vietnam gathered in their provincial capitals for a prayer vigil last Easter weekend. As they knelt, according to well-documented reports, communist authorities and soldiers in civilian clothes bludgeoned them with clubs, shovels and nail-affixed boards. The exact number killed and injured is unknown, withheld by a government that keeps its human-rights abuses well-veiled to the rest of the world. After the massacre, access to the highlands by foreign observers was blocked for a two-week period and, following that, was tightly controlled to only certain villages. Hundreds were reportedly arrested, tortured and jailed. This was no isolated incident. Severe religious persecution is standard practice in Vietnam, and it is escalating. Hundreds of Christians, Buddhists and followers of other faiths are in jail today, or under house arrest without charges, for peacefully following beliefs not authorized by the government. Vietnam requires government registration of churches and maintains control over their activities - from charity work to ministerial advancement to the content and publication of religious literature. Religious freedom abuses have intensified in Vietnam despite the 2001 passage of a bilateral trade agreement with the United States and multiple warnings from the U.S. State Department. On Sept. 15, Secretary of State Colin Powell presented a report designating Vietnam as a "country of particular concern" under the International Religious Freedom Act, joining such reviled human-rights performers as North Korea, Iran, Burma, China, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia and Sudan. The report thoroughly chronicled dozens of government-sanctioned abuses, often violent, against many faiths, primarily those followed by ethnic minorities in the central and northwest highlands. An estimated 400 churches have been destroyed by the government in Vietnam since 2000. One Catholic priest, Father Nguyen Van Ly, was arrested in May 2001 and sentenced to 15 years in prison for "damaging the government's unity policy" by writing a letter critical of the Vietnamese government to a U.S. human-rights commission. He remains behind bars, as do at least a confirmed 44 other religious leaders. The Vietnam government routinely attempts to force believers of unauthorized religions to recant their faiths. Some reportedly have been coerced to drink animal blood mixed with alcohol in staged ceremonies to promote the revival of ancient tribal rituals that won't compete with atheistic communist doctrine. A new law, set to take effect Nov. 15, will allow Vietnamese authorities greater freedom to arrest anyone whose religious practices differ with government wishes, even in their own homes. In the crosshairs of these abuses are some of the most loyal wartime allies America has ever known: the indigenous Montagnard people. Approximately half of the adult male Montagnard population was killed in action, fighting alongside U.S. soldiers during the Vietnam War. After Saigon fell in 1975, most of the Montagnards were landlocked and unable to escape, left to face a vengeful new regime on their own. Only a handful made it out. Since then, while the rest of Vietnam has tripled in population, the number of Montagnards has been culled nearly in half through a process some watchdog groups call "cultural leveling." Others call it genocide. Accusations of government-coerced sterilization, property seizure and harassment are widespread. Meanwhile, the Vietnam Human Rights Act of 2004 languishes in the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee. The bill would simply freeze non-humanitarian U.S. aid to Vietnam at 2004 levels, meaning no new increases in funding until the communist regime proves substantial progress on human rights and religious freedom. The measure, H.R. 1587, was introduced by Rep. Christopher Smith, R-N.J., and passed overwhelmingly in the House on July 19. The Senate version was introduced Sept. 9 by Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., and was referred to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. But without further action, the measure will die with the end of 108th Congress. A similar Vietnam human-rights bill introduced in 2001 passed by a 410-1 landslide in the House, only to die later in committee. At the time, Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., served as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on East Asian and Pacific Affairs, and opposed the bill. In a widely publicized 2002 letter, Kerry wrote that he and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., alike feared "it may hinder rather than advance the cause of human rights in Vietnam. We are concerned that denying aid to Vietnam would actually slow human-rights improvements." Smith's bill does not deny aid. It merely caps non-humanitarian U.S. aid at 2004 levels until Vietnam proves its human-rights and religious freedom policies are improving. Since the 2001 version was denied a vote in the Senate, the number of killings, beatings and arrests of innocent worshipers in Vietnam is anyone's guess. Reports of abuses, meanwhile, keep piling up. It is unconscionable to fail these prayerful people - so many of whom are allies we left behind in Vietnam - because some members of the Senate won't so much as give this bill its day in court. By failing to act, the committee also sends a message to Hanoi, which covets U.S. aid and trade but, as yet, has been given no good reason to change its draconian human-rights policies. All these former allies - to whom thousands of U.S. veterans owe their lives - want is the freedom to pray for something better. Their faith rests in us. Every American who values freedom of religion, basic human rights and support for former allies in their time of need must contact their U.S. senators immediately and demand a vote on the Vietnam Human Rights Act of 2004. To neglect our former allies once again is, at best, to subject them to communist thought control. At worst, our lack of action delivers their death sentence. As the world's leading voice of freedom, democracy and human dignity, America simply must do better. All it takes is a vote. __________ Thomas P. Cadmus of Michigan is the National Commander of The American Legion, the world's largest veterans service organization." I would like to believe that this report is false, but snopes doesn't have anything on it at this time. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #2 October 1, 2004 "I would like to believe that this report is false, but snopes doesn't have anything on it at this time" Which, the general thrust, eg those left behind are suffering? Yep, I'm afraid so, check out what Amnesty has to say about it here... http://www.amnesty.org/results/is/eng You can also search for "Degar" which is another name for the Montagnards. Whether Kerry was right to impede the bill is for smarter folks than me to work out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to embark on a bash-fest, just illuminating the plight of these people. Any pressure you guys can bring (Aid Trade?) from whatever political source would, I'm sure, be most welcome.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #3 October 1, 2004 QuoteAlthough we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. The following was just received: Belief that the end justifies the means has been the cause of misery, injustice and suffering throughout history. The Spanish Inquisitors believed that they were right too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #4 October 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteAlthough we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. The following was just received: Belief that the end justifies the means has been the cause of misery, injustice and suffering throughout history. The Spanish Inquisitors believed that they were right too. Doing nothing for fear of being wrong is worse then doing something and being only partially wrong. Your comparison is not very accurate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #5 October 1, 2004 >Doing nothing for fear of being wrong is worse then doing something and >being only partially wrong. Usually not true. If you see a serious injury in the landing area, and the guy is breathing but unconscious, and you don't take his helmet off for fear of doing something wrong - you just made a good call. Most of first-responder medicine is learning what NOT to do, and that can be the hardest thing for people in emergencies to do, since everyone wants to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #6 October 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAlthough we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. The following was just received: Belief that the end justifies the means has been the cause of misery, injustice and suffering throughout history. The Spanish Inquisitors believed that they were right too. Your comparison is not very accurate. Hmmm... Insert the Hermann Goering Quote here for why EITHER side fought the Vietnam War. It was never a good reason, but it sufficed. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
free_man 0 #7 October 1, 2004 The Gov't story that Vietnam was about fighting communism is BS. During WWII The US backed Ho Chi Minh, sound a little like the same situation we are in now? Vietnam War was fought for drugs, and money. see WAR IS A RACKET! http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm Vietnam, the CIA's Illegal Drug Trafficking, and JFK's Assassination by Michael Collins Piper The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade by Alfred McCoy “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #8 October 1, 2004 The road to hell is filled with good intentions huh? Vietnam was all about the "military/industrial complex" Ah ah ah now...Eisenhower? coined that term. Also helped get and sustain a robust economy here at home And before you right wing whackos ( a group I am proudly affiliated with) start your stuff, I was there and it still saddens me to think of those 57,000 something Americans (not to mention the million +) Vietnamese that got wasted. It was a fucked up war, just like the Iraq war. Still voting for Bush tho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #9 October 2, 2004 QuoteThe Gov't story that Vietnam was about fighting communism is BS. During WWII The US backed Ho Chi Minh, sound a little like the same situation we are in now? Nope you are not even close. The US backed the Vietnam Nationalists which included many factions one of which was Ho Chi Minh's group. Prior to WWII's end, Ho quietly started killing off the coalition member leadership so that his party could take over. When Ho requested US assistance to oust the French after the war's end, the US decided to back it's ally France over the Nationalists. In effect, the US allowed France to reimpose colonialism over the Vietnamese. That was our mistake that cost 58,000 American lives and 3-4 million Vietnamese lives. QuoteVietnam War was fought for drugs, and money. Nope, wrong again. The US individuals participating in the war eventually succumbed to the corruption and dollars which over the years became more and more prevalent. However the Vietnam war was not fought for drugs and money by the governments involved. You have listened to Hollywood for to long. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #10 October 2, 2004 QuoteBelief that the end justifies the means. This doesn't have anything to do with the thread. STFU. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #11 October 2, 2004 QuoteThis doesn't have anything to do with the thread. STFU. In Gemini's defense he used the phrase STFU meaning, "Sir, That's Funny but Uneccessary." Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #12 October 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteBelief that the end justifies the means. This doesn't have anything to do with the thread. STFU. The truth WILL set you free, even if you don't like it. Hubris has brought down smarter people than Bush.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
free_man 0 #13 October 2, 2004 Quote Nope you are not even close. The US backed the Vietnam Nationalists which included many factions one of which was Ho Chi Minh's group. Prior to WWII's end, Ho quietly started killing off the coalition member leadership so that his party could take over. When Ho requested US assistance to oust the French after the war's end, the US decided to back it's ally France over the Nationalists. In effect, the US allowed France to reimpose colonialism over the Vietnamese. That was our mistake that cost 58,000 American lives and 3-4 million Vietnamese lives. >> This in no way proves it was about fighting communism. Bad foreign policy. US backed Ho Chi >> Minh. QuoteNope, wrong again. The US individuals participating in the war eventually succumbed to the corruption and dollars which over the years became more and more prevalent. However the Vietnam war was not fought for drugs and money by the governments involved. You have listened to Hollywood for to long. >> Corruption from the start remember Gulf of Tonkin. >> Every war is fought about money this is a historical FACT. Control of the drug trade by the >> CIA was a main reason. Believe the Gov't story if it makes you >> feel better, the facts are to the contrary. “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #14 October 2, 2004 Quote...STFU. Play the ball, not the player, please.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #15 October 2, 2004 QuoteUS backed Ho Chi Minh US backed Vietnamese against the Japanese. Ho Chi Minh was part of the package, but the US did not back Ho against the French even if the the OSS wanted to. Get your history straight. QuoteBelieve the Gov't story if it makes you feel better, the facts are to the contrary. Please furnish me with provable facts if you can. I don't have to "believe" the govt story because I was there. Worked out of the Emassey annex in Nha Trang and have first hand experience. Flown by Air America many times. Where were you? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites free_man 0 #16 October 2, 2004 Quote US backed Vietnamese against the Japanese. Ho Chi Minh was part of the package, but the US did not back Ho against the French even if the the OSS wanted to. Get your history straight. >> I never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the >> french, failed foreign policy backing him during >> WWII, as well as backing other drug warlords. Quote Please furnish me with provable facts if you can. I don't have to "believe" the govt story because I was there. Worked out of the Emassey annex in Nha Trang and have first hand experience. Flown by Air America many times. Where were you? >> Working out of the embassy, or flying on Air >> America does not prove anything. Other than you were there. >> I provided some resources above, here are some names to look into: >> General Khun Sa, Ted Shackley, Tom Clines, Richard Armitage, >> Richard Secord, Ollie North, General Vang Pao, Robert Jantzen, Richard Taus, >> See: >> The CIA trafficing heroin/opium out of Burma, Laos, and Thailand, the Golden Triangle, >> prior to Vietnam War. Supplying the drug warlords. >> The French Connection. >> The Corsican syndicates. >> War is for profit. In this case primarily drug profit. “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #17 October 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteUS backed Ho Chi Minh US backed Vietnamese against the Japanese. Ho Chi Minh was part of the package, but the US did not back Ho against the French even if the the OSS wanted to. Get your history straight. QuoteBelieve the Gov't story if it makes you feel better, the facts are to the contrary. Please furnish me with provable facts if you can. I don't have to "believe" the govt story because I was there. Worked out of the Emassey annex in Nha Trang and have first hand experience. Flown by Air America many times. Where were you? You have first hand experience of government duplicity?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #18 October 3, 2004 Anyone can name names and items that have been made into movies, but I asked for facts. Got any? QuoteI never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the french Nope you didn't say that, so what? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #19 October 3, 2004 QuoteYou have first hand experience of government duplicity? Nope do you? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites free_man 0 #20 October 3, 2004 Quote Anyone can name names and items that have been made into movies, but I asked for facts. Got any? Quote I never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the french Nope you didn't say that, so what? Fact: CIA was trafficing drugs out of golden triangle prior to vietnam war. Do some research and discover the truth, I did not get names from any movie, I've done the research, I do not live in denial. “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #21 October 3, 2004 QuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #22 October 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. What you say is absolutely correct. It is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Additionally, the "Domino Theory" was shown to be incorrect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #23 October 3, 2004 QuoteIt is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Unfortunately, I also agree with this K. Our political system does not breed statesment who place the country first. We have politicians who rise to the top by making promises they never intend to keep, change position depending on the latest poll, and place their own needs(through their polical party) bofore those of the country, Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites free_man 0 #24 October 3, 2004 QuoteAnd I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. >>I have provided you with resources, there are plenty more, it is up to you to research them, where >>are your resources? >>The facts are that the CIA was involved in drug trafficking in the golden triangle, prior to the >>Vietnam War, and still are. >>Mao had shut down most of the drug trafficking in China, the french and the CIA needed drugs and >>cultivated drug production in the Golden Triangle. In 1962 The US ended operations in Laos, but >>the CIA moved its covert drug trade to Thailand and continued to fly supplies, and drugs between >>Laos, Thailand and Vietnam. Some they supported were fighting communists, some were >>communists. >>You stated that: Why the Vietnam War was fought Although we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. >>Gov't story of Gulf of Tonkin was BS, I think we agree. >>My facts are that the Vietnam War, was fought for profits, (like all wars) cost $150 billion dollars, >>(and the off the books profit came from the drugs in Vietnam), and the control of the drug trade >>that they were heavily involved in long before the war. (read WAR IS A RACKET) >>The CIA also used the American Mafia as well as the Corsican Mafia in their drug trafficking. >>The SE Asia drug trade also served as a model for Central and South America. >>Governments always use ideologies, like fighting communism, national security, spreading >>democracy, as guises and staged incidents, and false threats as propaganda to gain public >>support. >>Do some research on George Frederick Hegel, the Hegelian Dialectic. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis, >>also called Problem, Reaction, Solution. Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. - Hermann Goering, In War “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #25 October 4, 2004 Still no facts just inuendo and Hollywood make believe. Who got all the profits? Where are they? What were they doing this for? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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TomAiello 26 #14 October 2, 2004 Quote...STFU. Play the ball, not the player, please.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #15 October 2, 2004 QuoteUS backed Ho Chi Minh US backed Vietnamese against the Japanese. Ho Chi Minh was part of the package, but the US did not back Ho against the French even if the the OSS wanted to. Get your history straight. QuoteBelieve the Gov't story if it makes you feel better, the facts are to the contrary. Please furnish me with provable facts if you can. I don't have to "believe" the govt story because I was there. Worked out of the Emassey annex in Nha Trang and have first hand experience. Flown by Air America many times. Where were you? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
free_man 0 #16 October 2, 2004 Quote US backed Vietnamese against the Japanese. Ho Chi Minh was part of the package, but the US did not back Ho against the French even if the the OSS wanted to. Get your history straight. >> I never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the >> french, failed foreign policy backing him during >> WWII, as well as backing other drug warlords. Quote Please furnish me with provable facts if you can. I don't have to "believe" the govt story because I was there. Worked out of the Emassey annex in Nha Trang and have first hand experience. Flown by Air America many times. Where were you? >> Working out of the embassy, or flying on Air >> America does not prove anything. Other than you were there. >> I provided some resources above, here are some names to look into: >> General Khun Sa, Ted Shackley, Tom Clines, Richard Armitage, >> Richard Secord, Ollie North, General Vang Pao, Robert Jantzen, Richard Taus, >> See: >> The CIA trafficing heroin/opium out of Burma, Laos, and Thailand, the Golden Triangle, >> prior to Vietnam War. Supplying the drug warlords. >> The French Connection. >> The Corsican syndicates. >> War is for profit. In this case primarily drug profit. “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #17 October 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteUS backed Ho Chi Minh US backed Vietnamese against the Japanese. Ho Chi Minh was part of the package, but the US did not back Ho against the French even if the the OSS wanted to. Get your history straight. QuoteBelieve the Gov't story if it makes you feel better, the facts are to the contrary. Please furnish me with provable facts if you can. I don't have to "believe" the govt story because I was there. Worked out of the Emassey annex in Nha Trang and have first hand experience. Flown by Air America many times. Where were you? You have first hand experience of government duplicity?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #18 October 3, 2004 Anyone can name names and items that have been made into movies, but I asked for facts. Got any? QuoteI never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the french Nope you didn't say that, so what? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #19 October 3, 2004 QuoteYou have first hand experience of government duplicity? Nope do you? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites free_man 0 #20 October 3, 2004 Quote Anyone can name names and items that have been made into movies, but I asked for facts. Got any? Quote I never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the french Nope you didn't say that, so what? Fact: CIA was trafficing drugs out of golden triangle prior to vietnam war. Do some research and discover the truth, I did not get names from any movie, I've done the research, I do not live in denial. “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #21 October 3, 2004 QuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #22 October 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. What you say is absolutely correct. It is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Additionally, the "Domino Theory" was shown to be incorrect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #23 October 3, 2004 QuoteIt is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Unfortunately, I also agree with this K. Our political system does not breed statesment who place the country first. We have politicians who rise to the top by making promises they never intend to keep, change position depending on the latest poll, and place their own needs(through their polical party) bofore those of the country, Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites free_man 0 #24 October 3, 2004 QuoteAnd I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. >>I have provided you with resources, there are plenty more, it is up to you to research them, where >>are your resources? >>The facts are that the CIA was involved in drug trafficking in the golden triangle, prior to the >>Vietnam War, and still are. >>Mao had shut down most of the drug trafficking in China, the french and the CIA needed drugs and >>cultivated drug production in the Golden Triangle. In 1962 The US ended operations in Laos, but >>the CIA moved its covert drug trade to Thailand and continued to fly supplies, and drugs between >>Laos, Thailand and Vietnam. Some they supported were fighting communists, some were >>communists. >>You stated that: Why the Vietnam War was fought Although we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. >>Gov't story of Gulf of Tonkin was BS, I think we agree. >>My facts are that the Vietnam War, was fought for profits, (like all wars) cost $150 billion dollars, >>(and the off the books profit came from the drugs in Vietnam), and the control of the drug trade >>that they were heavily involved in long before the war. (read WAR IS A RACKET) >>The CIA also used the American Mafia as well as the Corsican Mafia in their drug trafficking. >>The SE Asia drug trade also served as a model for Central and South America. >>Governments always use ideologies, like fighting communism, national security, spreading >>democracy, as guises and staged incidents, and false threats as propaganda to gain public >>support. >>Do some research on George Frederick Hegel, the Hegelian Dialectic. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis, >>also called Problem, Reaction, Solution. Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. - Hermann Goering, In War “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #25 October 4, 2004 Still no facts just inuendo and Hollywood make believe. Who got all the profits? Where are they? What were they doing this for? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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kallend 2,027 #17 October 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteUS backed Ho Chi Minh US backed Vietnamese against the Japanese. Ho Chi Minh was part of the package, but the US did not back Ho against the French even if the the OSS wanted to. Get your history straight. QuoteBelieve the Gov't story if it makes you feel better, the facts are to the contrary. Please furnish me with provable facts if you can. I don't have to "believe" the govt story because I was there. Worked out of the Emassey annex in Nha Trang and have first hand experience. Flown by Air America many times. Where were you? You have first hand experience of government duplicity?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #18 October 3, 2004 Anyone can name names and items that have been made into movies, but I asked for facts. Got any? QuoteI never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the french Nope you didn't say that, so what? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #19 October 3, 2004 QuoteYou have first hand experience of government duplicity? Nope do you? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
free_man 0 #20 October 3, 2004 Quote Anyone can name names and items that have been made into movies, but I asked for facts. Got any? Quote I never said US backed Ho Chi Minh against the french Nope you didn't say that, so what? Fact: CIA was trafficing drugs out of golden triangle prior to vietnam war. Do some research and discover the truth, I did not get names from any movie, I've done the research, I do not live in denial. “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #21 October 3, 2004 QuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #22 October 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. What you say is absolutely correct. It is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Additionally, the "Domino Theory" was shown to be incorrect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #23 October 3, 2004 QuoteIt is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Unfortunately, I also agree with this K. Our political system does not breed statesment who place the country first. We have politicians who rise to the top by making promises they never intend to keep, change position depending on the latest poll, and place their own needs(through their polical party) bofore those of the country, Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites free_man 0 #24 October 3, 2004 QuoteAnd I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. >>I have provided you with resources, there are plenty more, it is up to you to research them, where >>are your resources? >>The facts are that the CIA was involved in drug trafficking in the golden triangle, prior to the >>Vietnam War, and still are. >>Mao had shut down most of the drug trafficking in China, the french and the CIA needed drugs and >>cultivated drug production in the Golden Triangle. In 1962 The US ended operations in Laos, but >>the CIA moved its covert drug trade to Thailand and continued to fly supplies, and drugs between >>Laos, Thailand and Vietnam. Some they supported were fighting communists, some were >>communists. >>You stated that: Why the Vietnam War was fought Although we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. >>Gov't story of Gulf of Tonkin was BS, I think we agree. >>My facts are that the Vietnam War, was fought for profits, (like all wars) cost $150 billion dollars, >>(and the off the books profit came from the drugs in Vietnam), and the control of the drug trade >>that they were heavily involved in long before the war. (read WAR IS A RACKET) >>The CIA also used the American Mafia as well as the Corsican Mafia in their drug trafficking. >>The SE Asia drug trade also served as a model for Central and South America. >>Governments always use ideologies, like fighting communism, national security, spreading >>democracy, as guises and staged incidents, and false threats as propaganda to gain public >>support. >>Do some research on George Frederick Hegel, the Hegelian Dialectic. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis, >>also called Problem, Reaction, Solution. Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. - Hermann Goering, In War “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #25 October 4, 2004 Still no facts just inuendo and Hollywood make believe. Who got all the profits? Where are they? What were they doing this for? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
gemini 0 #21 October 3, 2004 QuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #22 October 3, 2004 QuoteQuoteI've done the research And I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. Now let's discuss the real situation that has been blown way out of proportion by the media and hollywood: Did some CIA operatives or contractors ingage in illegal activities? Yes SOME did. Were drugs flown on CIA aircraft. Yes, drugs were discovered on some flights. Look at the situation at the time. Druglords ruled in the Golden Triangle. If you wanted to operate there you had to pay the toll whatever it was. It was a horrible situation and ruined many lives and careers. As Kallend pointed out earlier the end does not justify the means, but the truth was that some of the people would do anything to get the job done, other people were simply criminals acting under government cover. However these acts by some in the CIA (or in the name of the CIA) did not drive US foreign policy. Eleven cops shooting an unarmed civilian in New York doesn't mean the NYPD has a policy to shoot unarmed civilians. It means there is a problem with personnel, ethics or training that needs to be fixed. What you say is absolutely correct. It is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Additionally, the "Domino Theory" was shown to be incorrect.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #23 October 3, 2004 QuoteIt is also fact that Kennedy, Johnson, MacNamara, Westmoreland, Nixon and Kissinger all lied to the American people about Vietnam. It was a corrupt war at the very top. Unfortunately, I also agree with this K. Our political system does not breed statesment who place the country first. We have politicians who rise to the top by making promises they never intend to keep, change position depending on the latest poll, and place their own needs(through their polical party) bofore those of the country, Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
free_man 0 #24 October 3, 2004 QuoteAnd I am asking to see the research that you keep referring to and all you give me is jumk without support. >>I have provided you with resources, there are plenty more, it is up to you to research them, where >>are your resources? >>The facts are that the CIA was involved in drug trafficking in the golden triangle, prior to the >>Vietnam War, and still are. >>Mao had shut down most of the drug trafficking in China, the french and the CIA needed drugs and >>cultivated drug production in the Golden Triangle. In 1962 The US ended operations in Laos, but >>the CIA moved its covert drug trade to Thailand and continued to fly supplies, and drugs between >>Laos, Thailand and Vietnam. Some they supported were fighting communists, some were >>communists. >>You stated that: Why the Vietnam War was fought Although we entered the war under false circumstances (Gulf of Tonkin Incident) and allowed corruption to run rampant at all levels, the war against communism was not entirely wrong as most liberals would have you believe. >>Gov't story of Gulf of Tonkin was BS, I think we agree. >>My facts are that the Vietnam War, was fought for profits, (like all wars) cost $150 billion dollars, >>(and the off the books profit came from the drugs in Vietnam), and the control of the drug trade >>that they were heavily involved in long before the war. (read WAR IS A RACKET) >>The CIA also used the American Mafia as well as the Corsican Mafia in their drug trafficking. >>The SE Asia drug trade also served as a model for Central and South America. >>Governments always use ideologies, like fighting communism, national security, spreading >>democracy, as guises and staged incidents, and false threats as propaganda to gain public >>support. >>Do some research on George Frederick Hegel, the Hegelian Dialectic. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis, >>also called Problem, Reaction, Solution. Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. - Hermann Goering, In War “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #25 October 4, 2004 Still no facts just inuendo and Hollywood make believe. Who got all the profits? Where are they? What were they doing this for? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
gemini 0 #25 October 4, 2004 Still no facts just inuendo and Hollywood make believe. Who got all the profits? Where are they? What were they doing this for? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
