Same-Sex Marriage Amendment Fails in House

[Shotgun 1]

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If it is not a choice, then it is a genetic error meant to be worked out through natural selection. If it is chosen, then I think it is pretty easy to compare it to many other activites.

Not necessarily. It could result from environmental influences in the womb or infancy that have not, thus far, been identified. In which case it would not evolve out.

It could also be a genetic trait (not necessarily an error) meant to help control the population.

Or it could be a combination of genes and learned behavior (environmental influences), which I think is likely the case with most of our individual personality traits.

[Keith 0]

Edited to add: Don't bother trying to talk sense Keely. They know better. They know what's really going on.

You have no idea how a homosexual becomes a homosexual. I can only speak for me, but I woke up one day and decided I wanted to be feared and hated by society. I decided I wanted my Mother to hate me and tell people I was dead. I decided I wanted to be verbally and physically attacked. I decided I wanted to forced to financially support a government that marginalizes and stomps on me. I decided it would be fun to be fired because my boss found out about a my personal life that had nothing to do with my job performance. I decided that I wanted people I thought were my friends to run for the hills and forget I ever existed. I thought it would be fun to be in a committed relationship for 20 years so when my partner dies his family can come in and take everything we had worked for. I thought it would be fun to pay higher taxes than heterosexual couples. And best of all, I thought it would be soooo much fun to have people fear having their children left in the same room with me. Yup, I woke up one day and decided to be gay. Anybody who believes any different is in denial of the homosexual agenda.

edited for further clarification. I'm not mad, just making a point. I'll take my tongue out of my cheek now.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[sundevil777 102]

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If it is not a choice, then it is a genetic error meant to be worked out through natural selection. If it is chosen, then I think it is pretty easy to compare it to many other activites.

Not necessarily. It could result from environmental influences in the womb or infancy that have not, thus far, been identified. In which case it would not evolve out.

Nature or Nurture?

Careful Prof!

If it is not a genetic trait, then a person might want to convert to being straight, and there is no reason why they cannot overcome their 'nurtured' influence with effort.

Groups that have turned gays straight (some gays want to change) get severely attacked for denying the genetic nature of the orientation.

Open the door to the 'nurture' argument and you reject something crucial to gay right's groups - that a person cannot choose their orientation.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Michele 1]

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KEITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm still wondering if I was being recruited....LOLOL!

Nature V. Nurture...an argument which extends over millenia...I was adopted. I s'pose I'm a pretty good case study for N. v. N....adopted into a show biz family, liberal dems all of them. I sorta go against the grain...but I've met my birth family, and I go against their grain, too. LOL, who knows.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,991]

>f it is not a genetic trait, then a person might want to convert to being
> straight, and there is no reason why they cannot overcome their 'nurtured'
>influence with effort.

??? Thalidomide usage during pregnancy can cause children to be born without arms, although they have no genetic defects. Do you believe that with enough effort, they could grow arms?

There are about a million things that go in to the formation of someone's brain. Some are irreversible - if you are blind until age 16, and your eyes are repaired, your brain will never be able to process visual information. It's not laziness, or lack of training - the part of their brain that processes vision simply never developed and is now missing.

[sundevil777 102]

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Do you believe that with enough effort, they could grow arms?

Very witty, but without meaning.

Some gays have 'converted'. They wanted to do it and sought help.

Groups that help them get attacked. I think it is because if even some gays are shown to be able to change, then it is not 'hardwired' in their brain from the beginning.

Gay rights advocates do not want it to be accepted that even some gays might have gone that way because of 'nurture'.

I contend that it is a huge threat to their cause if it can be shown to be true.

Do you believe all gays are a result of their genetics?

I think it quite likely some are, and some are not.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Keith 0]

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Groups that have turned gays straight (some gays want to change) get severely attacked for denying the genetic nature of the orientation.

You mean like Exodus? The co-founders fell in love and left the "group." there are two choices one can make, to accept who you are or live in denial and self hatred. But then again you must know from personal experience that isn't true.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[billvon 2,991]

>Very witty, but without meaning.

All it means is that sometimes, even if a trait is the result of developmental factors, you can't change the trait by wanting to change it.

>Do you believe all gays are a result of their genetics?

I think it is a combination of genetics and developmental factors. And I am sure some can 'convert' - I'm sure if you took a group of heterosexuals you could convert some to homosexuality. I would question why you'd want to (in either case) but that's up to the individual.

[sundevil777 102]

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You mean like Exodus? The co-founders fell in love and left the "group." there are two choices one can make, to accept who you are or live in denial and self hatred. But then again you must know from personal experience that isn't true.

You've proven my point - I get attacked just for bringing up the subject.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[kallend 2,027]

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If it is not a choice, then it is a genetic error meant to be worked out through natural selection. If it is chosen, then I think it is pretty easy to compare it to many other activites.

Not necessarily. It could result from environmental influences in the womb or infancy that have not, thus far, been identified. In which case it would not evolve out.

Nature or Nurture?

Careful Prof!

If it is not a genetic trait, then a person might want to convert to being straight, and there is no reason why they cannot overcome their 'nurtured' influence with effort.

Groups that have turned gays straight (some gays want to change) get severely attacked for denying the genetic nature of the orientation.

Open the door to the 'nurture' argument and you reject something crucial to gay right's groups - that a person cannot choose their orientation.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse. If there are biochemical imbalances during pregnancy that have nothing to do with the inherited DNA then structural changes still can take place in the developing fetus that are irreversible. Just wanting to correct an anatomical anomaly by wanting to change doesn't work; you might as well want to correct liver cancer by just thinking about it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Now you're being deliberately obtuse. If there are biochemical imbalances during pregnancy that have nothing to do with the inherited DNA then structural changes still can take place in the developing fetus that are irreversible. Just wanting to correct an anatomical anomaly by wanting to change doesn't work; you might as well want to correct liver cancer by just thinking about it.

Actually, he's kind of got a point. Take bills example. No, you can't grow arms on a Thalamide baby, but you can stop giving mothers Thalamide. If there's some chemical balance that determines sexuality, why not treat pregnant women to make sure the chemicals are balanced properly? If you think that's ok, then that's akin to saying there's something wrong with being homosexual and it should be prevented.

[kallend 2,027]

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Now you're being deliberately obtuse. If there are biochemical imbalances during pregnancy that have nothing to do with the inherited DNA then structural changes still can take place in the developing fetus that are irreversible. Just wanting to correct an anatomical anomaly by wanting to change doesn't work; you might as well want to correct liver cancer by just thinking about it.

Actually, he's kind of got a point. Take bills example. No, you can't grow arms on a Thalamide baby, but you can stop giving mothers Thalamide. If there's some chemical balance that determines sexuality, why not treat pregnant women to make sure the chemicals are balanced properly? If you think that's ok, then that's akin to saying there's something wrong with being homosexual and it should be prevented.

That may well be true, but doing the research to discover what to do will prolly take a century or so since we can't ethically do a controlled experiment. In the meantime do we keep discriminating against homosexuals?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peregrinerose 0]

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There are about a million things that go in to the formation of someone's brain. Some are irreversible - if you are blind until age 16, and your eyes are repaired, your brain will never be able to process visual information. It's not laziness, or lack of training - the part of their brain that processes vision simply never developed and is now missing.

Yeah!! A vision analogy
With regard to the nature/nurture thing, who the hell knows? I'm leaning nature, based on the gay folks that I know. The one guy I knew since he was about 9, and it was obvious even then that he was gay. He tried very hard to fight that, even dated the same girl for 6 years. Really crushed her when he decided to stop living a fascade life.

Nurture probably plays a role with some, I know 2 lesbians that each were lesbian when depressed and desperately did anything they could when they needed attention. Once they were no longer depressed, they decided they were straight again. It was weird.

I also know a lesbian that did try to 'recruit' more. To my knowledge it never worked.

I can't be anything other than straight. I find other women attractive, but have no desire to have a relationship with one or sex with one. I like dicks a LOT and no matter what just couldn't choose to change that. The gay folks I know are no different.

If it is choice, they definitely chose the far more difficult road in life, with all the bigotry that is out there, and I can't imagine that people would voluntarily do that if it wasn't genetic. People have to be true to themselves.

In the end, both factors come into play. Like children of abuse tend to be abusers, but a good number are normal. The genetics and nurture thing both come to play there.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[PhillyKev 0]

No, I agree with you. Just saying that he has a point. And some people may not consider such experimentation unethical in their view of the benefit of such research.

[pajarito 0]

I haven’t been following this thread so I sincerely hope I’m not repeating what someone has already said. If so, I apologize up front. I very briefly glanced over the 6 pages of stuff and came across this justification for homosexuality.

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Just to point out one fact...... In the animal kingdom same sex pairings occur.....
and animals are far more innocent than any human.

This might in fact establish that homosexuality occurs naturally in some instances; however, it does not prove that it is as natural as heterosexual unions or that it isn’t an abnormality. In the sense that it shouldn’t happen because it serves no fundamental purpose for the species. There’s a big difference between animals and humans. We can decide to act or not to act on impulses such as these whether they are natural or learned. We are not necessarily under the control of them. We can also decide to act based on what we consider to be right or wrong. Whether homosexuality occurs naturally or by means of some environmental influence, the person still chooses to act on that tendency. I am heterosexual. I think most of the reason that I am is due to the way I am wired biologically. I’m also sure, in our society and especially in the South; there is also a big environmental influence to lean in that direction. I also, however, have the very common natural tendency to be an adulterer and a polygamist as I am sexually attracted to other women. I as a human, however, “choose” not to act on the natural impulse to have relations with any attractive woman I meet. I “choose” to be monogamous and faithful to my wife.

I personally believe that homosexuality is wrong on other levels but that is beside the point I’m trying to make with this post. Without reference to “right” or “wrong”, I just wanted to point out that I think it’s a choice and that it’s not something one “can’t help” or “choose” not to do as is inferred in the quote above.

[PhillyKev 0]

There's a big difference between impulsive actions such as adultery, and the entire substance of your sexuality.

You cannot choose not to be homosexual. You can choose not to engage in homosexual sex. There's a difference. Just like you can't choose not to be attracted to other women, you can only choose not to sleep with them.

[Botellines 0]

Why is it wrong? I can understand why you think cheating to your wife is wrong, you would be hurting someone else, but if you don´t hurt anyone else, do as you please.
Yes, i am aware that homosexual intercourse does not help much to perpetuate the specie, but neither does anal sex beetwen a man and a woman or sex with condoms.
If we agree that sex is not only a mean to have kids, heterosexual sex or homosexual sex comes down to personal preferences.
Sometimes i feel more comfortable telling my worries to a male friend, or just to be around males. Does it make me homosentimental?
The only thing I cannot stand are those gays that make a show off of their sexuality.

BTW, sorry if I made up a couple of words... The POTUS does that to.

[billvon 2,991]

>however, it does not prove that it is as natural as heterosexual unions
>or that it isn’t an abnormality.

Of course. But denying a man's desire to rape women isn't natural either; we control that impulse because we've learned that natural isn't always the best course of action.

>In the sense that it shouldn’t happen because it serves no fundamental
> purpose for the species.

People thought the same thing about sickle cell anemia for a long time.

>I personally believe that homosexuality is wrong on other levels but that
>is beside the point I’m trying to make with this post. Without reference to
> “right” or “wrong”, I just wanted to point out that I think it’s a choice and
> that it’s not something one “can’t help” or “choose” not to do as is
> inferred in the quote above.

If you define homosexuality as having sex with men, I agree. That's not a good definition, though. If you made a decision to never have sex with women, would that mean you were not heterosexual?

[WhirledWeb 0]

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...Some gays have 'converted'. They wanted to do it and sought help.

Groups that help them get attacked. I think it is because if even some gays are shown to be able to change, then it is not 'hardwired' in their brain from the beginning...

When I was about 25 I had been living closeted and terrified of my soul being damned to hell since I was 12 or so and started into puberty. Seeking to be fixed, I spent the next 7 years in exodus and similar ex-gay ministries (desert stream, etc). It would be difficult to summarize all of the processes and "let go, let God" kind of activities I took part in during that period. How many hundreds of hours in prayer, 40 day (water and fruit juice) fasts, accountability groups, mentoring with hetero couples, counselling, intercessory prayer, and just general brokenly surrendering before the Almighty to 'fix me'. During that time, I was highly engaged at my church in evangelism, worship, prayer team, giving food to the poor... all of "the stuff" that a good Christian should do. (insert quip about "faith without works is dead" here). I dated two amazing ladies from my church (they were fully aware of my "struggle" from the get-go... I was one of their "extreme make-over projects"). Each was sadly disappointed when I had to break up (after 10 months and a year respectively) because I simply had no sexual attraction to them whatsoever.... emotionally and spiritually, all was well - but it's difficult to have a serious relationship with no "spark".

So I went back to God. "I'll just focus on my business and leave my relationship crap up to God". Focus on my accountability and my work and not try to force anything relationally. 2 Years later, my business was kicking ass, I was still lonely, and I still wasn't straight.

I wanted to be converted with every breath... and I had sought it out for years.

2 Years ago, I spent some time in Italy, and was on the little balcony on the Dome of St. Peters Basilica in Rome... such an amazing view of history and religious significance. As I stood there looking out over St. Marks square, I was pretty confused by God at that point and simply asked when he was going to fix me, make me whole, make me straight. Almost as if he were just rolling his eyes, that still small voice came back to me and said. "you've never been broken, I made you who you are - why don't you be it?"

I argued with God for the next 2 weeks traveling through Tuscany. He was giving me permission to be who I am, and I had the five references in the bible to dispute him. (I also had references in the same book of the bible that says not to touch the skin of a dead pig... therefore, football must "of the devil"... I digress).

At that point in my life, I had been "out" to all of my friends and family as somebody who "struggled with homosexuality". Now I felt I wasn't struggling anymore and for the first time in my life, felt comfortable in my own (God-made) skin.

To this day, I continue to have some very challenging discussions with my evangelical friends who think I'm going to be going to hell for being who God made me... but it's something that is seriously between me and God. I keep an open mind, and still have some questions to be answered when I arrive at the pearly gates. I definately don't have all of the answers or even all of the questions figured out yet.

After the Italy experience, I was in a relationship for a year and a half until a few months ago - we weren't the right match for each other, but I was finally in a relationship that I could be passionate about, cling to and try to be in a place where we could grow together.

I have a high respect for Exodus related ministries, and personally know several people who are "ex-gay" and are living wonderful lives (a very good friend of mine is now married to a woman and they are expecting their first baby any day). I don't think he's disillusioned or kidding himself or whatever... I just think he's got a different life than I have - but his life is between him and his creator, and what he chooses for himself.

I also have a belief of the "kinsey scale" and that there are some that are "more gay" or "less gay" than others (not in terms of how they act, but what drives their mind). There's plenty of resources on the web to support either side of the arguments, I know... I've argued both sides.

Bringing this to the original topic of Gay Marraige, I wish that it were possible for the government to deal with the laws, and for the church to deal with the salvation issues.

As for this whole "gay agenda" thing... it kinda freaks me out when people say that. The only Gay Agenda I've seen is hollywood's straight agenda for the gay community. There's a lot of type-casting (don't get me wrong, it's hilarious and will and grace gets great ratings... but it puts us in a little box when they think we can all do interior design and bake a quiche.) As if we all meet in the back room of Abercrombie and Fitch and are planning a coup.

-Mark

.................
p.s. Keith, thanks for the "I decided" comments above... nicely put.


I know this thread started about Gay Marraige, but it took a turn into ex-gay ministries... so I had to pipe in my pocket change... my apologies.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Don't be afraid of death,
be afraid of the unlived life.

[pajarito 0]

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You cannot choose not to be homosexual. You can choose not to engage in homosexual sex. There's a difference. Just like you can't choose not to be attracted to other women, you can only choose not to sleep with them.

That is what I was trying to imply (i.e. choice in behavior or, more specifically, action). Maybe I didn't do a good enough job. That's not to say that I think every instance of homosexuality is biological in nature. I think some is learned behavior from one's social environment.

[pajarito 0]

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Why is it wrong? I can understand why you think cheating to your wife is wrong, you would be hurting someone else, but if you don´t hurt anyone else, do as you please.
Yes, i am aware that homosexual intercourse does not help much to perpetuate the specie, but neither does anal sex beetwen a man and a woman or sex with condoms.
If we agree that sex is not only a mean to have kids, heterosexual sex or homosexual sex comes down to personal preferences.
Sometimes i feel more comfortable telling my worries to a male friend, or just to be around males. Does it make me homosentimental?
The only thing I cannot stand are those gays that make a show off of their sexuality.

BTW, sorry if I made up a couple of words... The POTUS does that to.

I wasn't arguing the "right" or "wrong" of it in my post above. I have in the past but not in that one. I was simply stating that, whether biological or environmental in nature, it is still a choice.

[craichead 0]

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I also have a belief of the "kinsey scale" and that there are some that are "more gay" or "less gay" than others (not in terms of how they act, but what drives their mind).

One of my friends has a great term for the fluidity of sexuality: "flexosexual"

Thanks for sharing your story.
_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[wmw999 2,447]

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That is what I was trying to imply (i.e. choice in behavior or, more specifically, action).

So then is it your contention that someone who is wired to be homosexual should remain celibate because they're incapable of being attracted to the opposite sex?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Frenchy68 0]

Serious candidate for "Post of the year" award

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they think we can all do interior design and bake a quiche

You can't? Well, maybe you're not really gay then...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[pajarito 0]

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So then is it your contention that someone who is wired to be homosexual should remain celibate because they're incapable of being attracted to the opposite sex?

That is my contention but the reason for that part of it is religious in nature. I was just trying to put down the assumption that they can't help what they do because they were born that way.