Same-Sex Marriage Amendment Fails in House

[Keith 0]

Like I said previously, I've touched a nerve. You're getting rather angry. I'll just back off. My intention is to have a rational discussion, not an arguing match. Take care Ron.

edited to add: In all sincerity, thanks for sharing your personal experiences. Although I don't agree with your interpretation, I appreciate your candor.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I think people choose to be gay...

on what basis do you believe this? I never chose to be straight, I just was.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,991]

Your one warning. If you cannot discuss the issue without attacking people, do not discuss it at all.

[wmw999 2,447]

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You claimed that gays don't "recruit" I gave you my personal examples of two times I felt that they were trying

Were they trying to recruit you? Or were they expressing their feelings? Again, the first one was wrong because of his position.

To me, recruiting would be trying to show you how good it would be to be gay, and trying to get you to try it. Getting shitfaced and admitting that he'd liked you for awhile and trying to kiss you sounds like what some guys and girls do to each other too -- are they trying to recruit for heterosexuality? Or just being sloppy?

I realize that you think that homosexuality is chosen. What are some not-visible things that you think are born into people? Intelligence? Hyperactivity? Autism?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[dropoutdave 0]

I maybe blind to this, possibly because my brother is gay and ive been around gay people all my life, but I see no reason why it should be called recruiting when its a gay person trying to score with you rather than a straight person trying to 'pull' you.

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[christelsabine 1]

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I think people choose to be gay...since I am not gay then it is clear I didn't choose it and since you are it is clear you did.

You just wish to try and act like its normal and will get your panties in a twist at anyone that says its not.

Did you have any choice? It was your own "straight" nature telling you to love what you want to love.

Why do you think are so many gay guys trying to hide their nature for years? They had no "choice", they simply were gay!

Edited again. Calm down everyone.

OK, as I face same reaction in my private life (only men!!), I give up.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[freeflybella 0]

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The one who was the youth counselor was wrong on all counts. That's not a homosexual kind of wrong, it's an authority figure/adult vs. kid kind of wrong.

I don't mean to interpret for Ron (and Ron, correct me if I'm wrong because this is a very big distinction) but I don't think Ron said the guy was 'his' youth counselor.

If he wasn't, no harm in my mind. Youth counselors date like everyone else. If Ron and he were 'best friends' and the guy just happened to be a youth counselor - no biggie.

If he was such a good guy - good enough to be best friends with Ron, good enough to be a youth counselor - I bet it killed him to have to keep such a secret. I'd bet every time he counseled someone to be who they are and be the best they can and not to be ashamed and to be honest - it hurt him.

People do dumb things when intoxicated. He wrongly chose that moment to come out to Ron. It's called lowered inhibitions.

Like Wendy said, predators come in all flavors. But so do friends.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[narcimund 0]

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My intention is to have a rational discussion, not an arguing match.

In that case you're rare. Well, you would be if you were on the other side at least.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Ron 10]

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Like I said previously, I've touched a nerve. You're getting rather angry.

You went to claim that I was born gay

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1293260#1293260

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Re: [Ron] Same-Sex Marriage Amendment Fails in House [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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I have had several such conversations...All seemed to feel they were "Born Gay".

But I tend to not accept that. Most also had other factors in their lives that could very well have influenced the choice they made.

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So you chose to be gay?

Keith

Which I take as a personal attack.

Then you claim I was born GAY and chose another course

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1293342#1293342

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Re: [Ron] Same-Sex Marriage Amendment Fails in House [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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So you chose to be gay?

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No, I made the choice not to be.

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So you were born gay and chose to be straight. Hmm, but you said you didn't believe people could be born gay?

Keith

Again I take that as a Personal attack.

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I'll just back off. My intention is to have a rational discussion, not an arguing match. Take care Ron.

Then maybe you should not attack me?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

How about him attacking me calling me gay?


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1293564#1293564

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[narcimund 0]

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---Long complicated quote which Ron did not understand snipped---

Then maybe you should not attack me?

Maybe you should read a little more closely. He was using (very well I might add) a little logic technique knows as hypotheticals to connect your very own disconnected argument.

Go read it again without assuming you're being called (--gasp--!) gay and it will become clear.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Ron 10]

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Did you have any choice?

Of course I had a choice.

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It was your own "straight" nature telling you to love what you want to love.

Or it could have been how I was raised. The movies I watched, the way my parents acted, ect.

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Why do you think are so many gay guys trying to hide their nature for years? They had no "choice", they simply were gay!

They still made a choice. They made a choice to try and hide it, then they made a choice not to.

Still choices.

If I kill someone, can I calim it was in my nature therefore not my fault?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[narcimund 0]

Ron,

I assume you won't reply to this because you never do. But other people will read it and get the idea.

There is a substantial difference between (A) being gay (i.e., being the kind of person who is inclined to homosexual relations of a variety of different kinds) versus (B) having gay sex.

When people say being gay is not a choice, they mean (A).

When you say having gay sex is a choice, you mean (B). But you conflate the two (intentionally, I do believe) to create a logically unsupportable result.

Think about the difference. Think about it a lot because your failure to understand this very simple idea is the source of a lot of your difficulty.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Ron 10]

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I don't mean to interpret for Ron (and Ron, correct me if I'm wrong because this is a very big distinction) but I don't think Ron said the guy was 'his' youth counselor.

He was a youth counslor at the church. He was also a guy that was a good guy that I could talk to. His hitting on me made me feel like he was preying on me.

I no longer could trust him, so I was no longer friends with him.

BTW I didn't feel like a guy getting hit on at a bar. I felt like he got me drunk to try and have sex with me. It was not a case of "professing love"...It was a case of a guy trying to get someone drunk with the intent of making a move.

Wrong in any case. And I felt I could no longer trust him. THATS why I stopped being friends with him.

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Like Wendy said, predators come in all flavors. But so do friends.

Ya know the feeling I got from this...Ya know those guys that give kids toys and candy and then start asking for sexual favors?

Thats the feeling I got. VERY creepy, and I felt I could no longer trust the guy. If I can't trust someone....I don't stay friends with them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

LOL! Asking if someone's gay isn't an insult!

[dropoutdave 0]

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Or it could have been how I was raised. The movies I watched, the way my parents acted, ect.

My brother and I were raised in the same way, did the same things as children, went to the same schools, had a similar group of friends, watched the same movies etc but in the end, in his heart and mind he just found that it was men that he was attracted to and not women. Go figure. On reflection he said that from day one the thought of girls 'in that way' just never entered his mind.

As far as the whole choice 'theory' goes, for example, when you see an ex of yours with someone else, you sometimes feel jealous right? That is the way you feel. Do you have the choice not to feel that jealousy? Can you just swtich it off like a light? I believe that there are many things in life that people can choose to do or not to do but the way you feel is, on the whole, unavoidable.

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[Ron 10]

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I assume you won't reply to this because you never do

When have I not replied to you?

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There is a substantial difference between (A) being gay (i.e., being the kind of person who is inclined to homosexual relations of a variety of different kinds) versus (B) having gay sex.

Yes, one is a feeling, the other an act.

If you have the feelings but don't act on them you IMO are not gay. It takes the ACT to become gay, and that is a choice (Unless raped).

If I WANT to kill someone...I am not a killer. If I kill someone THEN I am a killer.

If I want to have sex with 1000 women, I am not Don Juan...IF I HAVE sex with 1,000 women I am still not Don Juan, (Hey but who cares right).

If you want to have Gay sex..You are not gay. If you HAVE gay sex you are GAY...It is the act, not the intent.

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Think about the difference. Think about it a lot because your failure to understand this very simple idea is the source of a lot of your difficulty.

I think your failure to understand the simple concept that WANTING something does not make you anything...DOING something does make you it.

And I think that is the source of your difficulty.

Wanting to kill someone does not make you a murder anymore than wanting gay sax will not make you gay.

It is the ACT. That gives you the definition.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freeflybella 0]

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Ya know the feeling I got from this...

Did you talk to him and find out his motives or intentions?
Or had you seen one too many after-school specials?

I know that sounded snarky but there really is a difference.

It makes me mad when people throw 'predator' around in discussions about homosexuality. When people are caught off guard, and their world is shaken (as yours was when your best friend hit on you) - it's easy to feel 'preyed' upon.

Obviously I can't speak for your friend - you know knew him.

Maybe he was one of those pedophile (read:not gay)/predator/church dudes in the making. Or maybe he was your gay best friend and made an error in judgment.

I see that encounter had a big affect on your views of gays. Maybe you should make an effort to have a few positive encounters before closing your mind?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Ron 10]

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---Long complicated quote which Ron did not understand snipped---

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Then maybe you should not attack me?

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Maybe you should read a little more closely. He was using (very well I might add) a little logic technique knows as hypotheticals to connect your very own disconnected argument.

Go read it again without assuming you're being called (--gasp--!) gay and it will become clear.

Maybe you didn't understand?

You are defending him since he agrees with your view, and attacking me since I don't.

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Go read it again without assuming you're being called (--gasp--!) gay and it will become clear.

Maybe you should read it and assume he was trying to call me gay...Ya know that is an insult to straight men right?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[narcimund 0]

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You are defending him since he agrees with your view, and attacking me since I don't.

Your ability to mindread the source of my sexual orientation is only matched by your ability to mindread my reasons for defending good argument against poor readings.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Ron 10]

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Did you talk to him and find out his motives or intentions?

Yeah, he played it off and wanted me to keep it a secret.

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Maybe he was one of those pedophile (read:not gay)/predator/church dudes in the making. Or maybe he was your gay best friend and made an error in judgment.

Maybe he was just a gay guy. But I felt preyed upon. And I don't have to be friends with people who make me feel uneasy around.

He fostered trust.
He got me drunk.
He made sure we were alone.
He made a move, and then later tried to keep it secret.

What do you think?

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I see that encounter had a big affect on your views of gays. Maybe you should make an effort to have a few positive encounters before closing your mind?

You don't know me. I have a few gay friends. I started with a female gay friend since I would not feel threatend. I also had a boss that was gay. I have spent many hours talking to them about nature vs nurture.

In fact one of my gay guy friends thought I was "interested" since I started asking him about "Gaydar" and how he knows he can hit on a guy.

He thought I was asking for tips.

After I told him why I was asking...Just to learn more to make informed choices about things...He expalined maybe more information than I wanted.

I wonder if these "Gay Champions" on here can have logical disscussions with straight people about this topic....Most I have seen on here cannot. They assume if you question it that they must attack.

Stupid really, and it shows me that they cannot be open.

It's OK for them to tell you what they think, but God forbid you say your mind.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Your ability to mindread the source of my sexual orientation is only matched by your ability to mindread my reasons for defending good argument against poor readings.

Your ability to be closed minded and attack others for how they feel is one of the main reasons that there is a bias in the world towards gays.

Ask a question, or give an opinion and you attack.

You are a large part of the problem. You assume anyone that does not agree with you is a homophobe, or a religious zelot.

That is a closed mind. You know nothing about me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freeflybella 0]

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He fostered trust.
He got me drunk.
He made sure we were alone.
He made a move, and then later tried to keep it secret.

What do you think?

It's silly really for me to speculate. You're right, I don't know you and I'm only playing devil's advocate. But you asked me what I thought:

He was your best friend.
You guys got drunk.
When you were alone, he hit on you.
Your reaction confirmed what he was afraid of and wanted to take the whole thing back - and hoped you would understand.

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I wonder if these "Gay Champions" on here can have logical disscussions with straight people about this topic....Most I have seen on here cannot. They assume if you question it that they must attack.

Stupid really, and it shows me that they cannot be open.

It's OK for them to tell you what they think, but God forbid you say your mind.

There is a majority/minority thing that comes into play here. It happens with Men/Women, with Whites/Blacks, and with Straight/Gay. I think, but I'm not sure, that it has to do with one group wanting to deny rights to the other group. And not the other way around.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Keith 0]

I think we need to lighten up a little on Ron. He has, at least, opened up and told us some rather personal things to support his position which is a lot more than I can say for others around here.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[narcimund 0]

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Your ability to be closed minded and attack others for how they feel is one of the main reasons that there is a bias in the world towards gays.

Wow. I never knew I was so important.

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Ask a question, or give an opinion and you attack.

I haven't seen you ask any questions. I've seen you ignore them. I've also seen you ignore answers which contradicted questions you SHOULD have asked. I've also seen you give ignorant, destructive opinions about things you know nothing about, then responded to information you were missing as if it were an attack.

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You are a large part of the problem. You assume anyone that does not agree with you is a homophobe, or a religious zelot.

I hardly ever use the terms "homophobe" or "religious zealot". However, I'll freely call you (and your kind) the "enemy". Not because you disagree with me, but because you've declared yourself against me (and my kind). You (and your kind) seek out ways to disadvantage me, stop me from gaining what I want (even when it has nothing to do with you) and in extreme cases, your kind does much, much worse.

I think "enemy" covers it quite well. Is that better?

First Class Citizen Twice Over