Same-Sex Marriage Amendment Fails in House

[Ron 10]

Quote

There are gay adoptive parents -- i.e. gay couples who have adopted childred (generally older ones).

There are also people who have gotten married to someone of the opposite sex, had children, and then gotten into a same-sex relationship. I believe that they would still be considered parents.

And there are gay women who have been artificially inseminated so they could have children. I believe they, too, would qualify as parents.

My question was to Bill when he said Gay parents make better parents.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

>Got anything to back that up?

All the adoptive parents I know have been excellent parents, primarily because they have to really want a child and have to be approved. One friend of mine recently returned from China with an adopted girl; she will have a great home. I've known quite a few absolutely miserable heterosexual parents; they often end up with children they do not want, cannot support or are not prepared for in the slightest.

So you have no PROOF, but make that claim?

I see.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

Some people are saying that gays should have an equal but separate procedure they can follow (civil union.)

I'll go a tiny step further. Civil Union should be opened to all (homosexuals and heterosexuals).

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Ron 10]

Quote

When you've had an open dialogue with someone who is gay, and really tried to understand their position, come back and comment.

I have had several such conversations...All seemed to feel they were "Born Gay".

But I tend to not accept that. Most also had other factors in their lives that could very well have influenced the choice they made.

Nature vs Nurture...Thats a damn fine question.

I tend to side with nurture. I like to think people have a choice in their lives.

If I were to believe that homosexuals were born that way I would have to also believe that other personality traits were also born into people.

Laziness, criminal tendencies...ect.

I tend to think that the way a person is raised is the major factor on how they are as adults.

But if you ask many people who have certain tendencies they will claim they were just "Born" that way. Since the factors that influenced those choices were so strong and so deeply in them, that they can't think they chose that path.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[narcimund 0]

Quote

So you have no PROOF, but make that claim?

One consistent technique among the anti-gay-marriage people (and also the anti-gay people who are largely the same group) is that when their nonsense made-up attacks are dismissed without proof, they take that as evidence for their claim but but as soon as proof is offered, they silently ignore it -- and come back later with the same attack.

In other words, the rule is: attack over and over until someone points out your facts are simply wrong. Then take a short break before starting over.

The anti-gay-marriage posters in this thread have absolutely NO idea what gay people are about. Your imaginations are running wild with paranoia and rumor but you're totally out of your minds with nonsense. The last thing in the world you want to find out is the truth, so you've developed excellent filters for ignoring evidence.

I swear it would be funny if you people didn't breed so quickly.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Keith 0]

Quote

I have had several such conversations...All seemed to feel they were "Born Gay".

But I tend to not accept that. Most also had other factors in their lives that could very well have influenced the choice they made.

So you chose to be gay?

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[billvon 2,991]

>So you have no PROOF, but make that claim?

I would introduce you to the people involved, but somehow I doubt you'd bother to make the trip to NY, Rhode Island and Massachusetts. Believe it or not, there's a real world out there, with families, kids, straight people, gays, and whatnot. And even more shocking - some of it isn't on the web!

[Ron 10]

Quote

Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Homosexuals do not reproduce, they recruit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OK, so what's your recruitor's name?

In my life I have had two guys try to "recruit" me.

One was named Hank, and the other Hal.

Both were good friends and people I trusted with being a sounding board for my tough choices.

Both hid the fact they were gay until many years had passed.

One tried to kiss me while we were both drunk one night.

The other told me that he was gay and in love with me one day.

The guy that tried to kiss me...Well I have not seen him in years. I was young and it REALLY freaked me out.

The second guy and I still talk, but he is not as close as a friend as he was.

Now I have several other gay friends and we are fairly close...as close as any friends are. But those two I felt (and still feel) wierd around. We were good friends, but they hid a big thing from me. I know why they did it, but that fact along with the fact that I still don't feel comfertable with the idea of them hitting on me...Well it makes it difficult for me to be around them.

So there ya have it...The names of they guys that tried to "recruit" me....Did they lose points they could redeam for the toaster when they didn't "get" me?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,991]

>One tried to kiss me while we were both drunk one night.

?? Carsten tries to kiss me all the time. I don't take it personally; he tries to kiss everyone. He's not recruiting for anything.

[Ron 10]

Quote

One consistent technique among the anti-gay-marriage people (and also the anti-gay people who are largely the same group) is that when their nonsense made-up attacks are dismissed without proof, they take that as evidence for their claim but but as soon as proof is offered, they silently ignore it -- and come back later with the same attack.

His opinion was the same as the opinion of anyone that says gay marriage will destroy hetero marriage.

It was his OPINION with out any proof.

Quote

The anti-gay-marriage posters in this thread have absolutely NO idea what gay people are about. Your imaginations are running wild with paranoia and rumor but you're totally out of your minds with nonsense. The last thing in the world you want to find out is the truth, so you've developed excellent filters for ignoring evidence.

Really? You know me? I doubt it.

Simple fact. Bill posted an opinion without any backing.

It is the same BS as another poster saying that Gays are evil.

Both just OPINIONS, and both without any fact.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have had several such conversations...All seemed to feel they were "Born Gay".

But I tend to not accept that. Most also had other factors in their lives that could very well have influenced the choice they made.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So you chose to be gay?

No, I made the choice not to be.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

>So you have no PROOF, but make that claim?

I would introduce you to the people involved, but somehow I doubt you'd bother to make the trip to NY, Rhode Island and Massachusetts. Believe it or not, there's a real world out there, with families, kids, straight people, gays, and whatnot. And even more shocking - some of it isn't on the web!

I spend MUCH less time online than you Bill.

Also, 5 people do NOT make a case study.

You gave an opinion and tried to pass it like fact Bill...And when called on it you try to insult me...

Bad Form.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

It is the same BS as another poster saying that Gays are evil.

Both just OPINIONS, and both without any fact.

And one seeks to justify the end of discrimination while the other tries to justify discrimination. IMO without any facts to prove that gay marriage will or will not "destroy the fabric of society" the prudent choice is to remove any restriction on peoples' liberties. I believe that to be one of the fundamental differences between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives would rather keep the status quo when faced with an unknown.

[Ron 10]

Quote

>One tried to kiss me while we were both drunk one night.

?? Carsten tries to kiss me all the time. I don't take it personally; he tries to kiss everyone. He's not recruiting for anything.

That could be your problem Bill...You can't tell the difference between a guy playing with you and a guy hitting on you.

I can tell the difference.

Shame you were not in Perris.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

I don't know about you, but given the choice I'd rather have a guy hit on me than "play with me".


Question for Ron. You said it upset you and changed your relationship with these guys that hit on you. Would it have had the same effect if they were females that you were friends with and had no romantic interest in? Or was it worse because they were gay males?

Not trying to trap you with a question or judge you, just curious.

[billvon 2,991]

>You gave an opinion and tried to pass it like fact Bill...And when
>called on it you try to insult me...

I cheated, and used something that is a bit unusual here - real world experience. You can't google it, and you can't find it in a book. Real people, some in my family, others good friends of mine, have been through this. Couples who adopt have to really want a child, and have to live up to certain standards. Once they are approved, they get a child they are prepared for, and one they really want. For a fertile woman to conceive, all she has to do is follow her instincts and not think about the consequences. Sometimes, sadly, that results in a child no one wants, or results in a child the mother is ill-equipped to care for.

You must have friends who have had similar experiences. Talk to them.

[freeflybella 0]

Quote

Both were good friends and people I trusted with being a sounding board for my tough choices.

Quote

Both hid the fact they were gay until many years had passed.

Quote

they hid a big thing from me. I know why they did it, but that fact along with the fact that I still don't feel comfertable with the idea of them hitting on me...Well it makes it difficult for me to be around them.

Too bad you lost two good friends due to your lack of compassion and forgiveness/understanding.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Keith 0]

Quote

So you chose to be gay?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, I made the choice not to be.

So you were born gay and chose to be straight. Hmm, but you said you didn't believe people could be born gay?

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[Ron 10]

Your personal experiences do not make it true over all.

You are making a statment based off of a small sampling. I bet I could find cases where gay couples have abused children. That does not ame it so ALL gay couples will abuse children.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Keith 0]

Quote

In my life I have had two guys try to "recruit" me.

One was named Hank, and the other Hal.

Both were good friends and people I trusted with being a sounding board for my tough choices.

Both hid the fact they were gay until many years had passed.

One tried to kiss me while we were both drunk one night.

The other told me that he was gay and in love with me one day.

So if you try to kiss a woman, or tell her you're in love with her you're trying to recruit her to heterosexuality.

edited to add: I feel your pain. I would get angry and exile anyone who told me they thought I was a great guy too.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[dorbie 0]

Quote

I completely agree. I think same sex unions should start out as unions rather than marriages. Once we have same sex unions coexisting with marriage, the disparity between the two will become much more evident. At some point the disparity will wind up in the U.S. Supreme court and the two will have to be merged because as I pointed out before, the U.S. Supreme Court has already decided separate but equal isn't equal. Those who want to 'save marriage' better come together and decide what they really want because one day, maybe not in my life time but some day, same sex couples will obtain equal rights to opposite sex couples.

Your post pre-supposes that equal legal rights granted would not actually entail equal legal rights, it could. But let's take this to where you seemingly want to go. Considering the issues w.r.t. adoption which I think many people have opinions on but not a lot of hard data. People are entitled to opinions on this IMHO. You're back to fundamental unanswered questions of nature vs nurture and beyond that mental health & self esteem, this is not a science. I don't think there's any question that the *vast* majority of folks who are gay are born gay, but clearly there's some imprinting I don't think you can argue that anyone is born with a high heel fetish (or other examples I won't delve into), but it's imprinted at some point. The central issue is the psychological impact on a child of having two gay parents and that household environment during development, and I'm not talking about some homophobic visceral bullshit, I mean what's the data? There are undoubtedly much worse things can happen to a child than this, but consider an adoption agency with two seemingly equally suitable couples for a child. One is gay and one is hetero, taking your position to it's logical conclusion on equal rights suggests that this should play absolutely no role in deciding where the child is placed, they should just flip a coin. That would concern a lot of people and I suggest that they have a right to be concerned about this. There are arguments to be made in preference for the heterosexual environment beyond the "tried & tested for millenia" all else being equal, role models, formative experiences and natural reproduction. What weight you place on that is up to you, but equal rights should not ignore this should it?

If you thing it shouldn't ignore this then articulate it. Is there a line to be drawn, what value do we place on healthy psychosexual imprinting. If you just keep pounding on the case for gay adoption it's difficult to know where you'd be prepared to go with this and that polarizes opponents.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Not trying to trap you with a question or judge you

BS you are always trying to trap me, and you all judge me.

And thats fine.

Quote

Question for Ron. You said it upset you and changed your relationship with these guys that hit on you. Would it have had the same effect if they were females that you were friends with and had no romantic interest in? Or was it worse because they were gay males?

I HAVE had females that Iw as not interested hit on me. It DID change the relationship with them also. Mainly since they were not happy to be around me after I rejected them.

But, the major factor is I felt that they had been lying to me and keep it a secret while they were getting ready to make a move.

That bred distrust of them.

But yes, it also freaked me out. More so the first time. I was maybe 17 so I was not ready to handle it.

The second person I still talk to, and keep in contact with. But it is wierd. I feel a strong distrust of them since they were not honest with me. I have gay friends and I trust them more than these guys since I felt underhanded motives.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

But I tend to not accept that. Most also had other factors in their lives that could very well have influenced the choice they made.

Nature vs Nurture...Thats a damn fine question.

I tend to side with nurture. I like to think people have a choice in their lives.

If I were to believe that homosexuals were born that way I would have to also believe that other personality traits were also born into people.

It's not that easy, Ron, there is no choice at all. My girl friend's son is 24. His father is an Italian "macho man", training his son basketball, tennis, football: no German soccer, or whatever it's called, scuba diving, martial arts.

The guy's coming back home after training, taking a shower, dressing himself like a girl. He was like that from the beginning.
He has no choice and is unable to change it by "just willing".

That's their nature which you never will turn into anything else. Could you be turned into "something else"(Ron, go home an start loving gays!) ? By forcing you or with you own will? I doubt that.

It's mother nature. Not more, not less. And if one day in my old age I should start to look for pretty girls: Perhaps I will enjoy? Who knows?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[dropoutdave 0]

Quote

That could be your problem Bill...You can't tell the difference between a guy playing with you and a guy hitting on you.

I can tell the difference.

Most people would take it as a compliment. Don't know about everyone else but i'm comfortable with my sexuality and i'm flattered when a gay man comes onto me.

------------------------------------------------------
May Contain Nut traces......

[billvon 2,991]

>That could be your problem Bill...You can't tell the difference between
>a guy playing with you and a guy hitting on you.

?? I think you've never met Carsten.

>Now I have several other gay friends and we are fairly close...as close as
> any friends are. But those two I felt (and still feel) wierd around. We were
> good friends, but they hid a big thing from me. I know why they did it . . .

Because they were afraid that you would no longer feel comfortable around them? Sounds like they were right.

I've had women hit on me, and a very few men. It doesn't bother me much as long as they stop when I tell them to. Not much difference from their point of view, so I don't feel much different towards them.

>So there ya have it...The names of they guys that tried to "recruit"
> me....Did they lose points they could redeam for the toaster when they
> didn't "get" me?

No, but sounds like they will know better than to admit to their friends that they are gay in the future. And that works for the anti-gay side as well; once they're more secretive about it, an anti-gay activist can claim they are trying to 'keep secrets.'