NOW DO YOU BELIEVE ME?!

[Guest]

Just heard on the radio that the US House of Representatives voted on the "Bring Back the Draft" bill, sponsored by Dick(head) Rangel (D-SC [iirc]).

In addition to being a vehicle for class warfare, the bill has been used during this campaign season, as a tool by the libs to scare voters; e.g., "A vote for Bush is a vote for the draft!" (never mind that it was sponsored by a liberal Democrat).

The bill has been in committee for a year and a half now, and I predicted it would be kept there.

Boy was I wrong!

The House GOP brought that fucking bill to the floor today and forced a RECORDED vote.

The final count:

2 for (Rangel and some other schmuck).....

AND 402 AGAINST!

I said it before, but it bears repeating...

A I N ' T

G O N N A

H A P P E N !!!













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[AdamLanes 1]

Do you have a time machine or a crystal ball that tells you the certainty of the future? Don't fool yourself.

[crwmike 0]

Quote

Just heard on the radio that the US House of Representatives voted on the "Bring Back the Draft" bill, sponsored by Dick(head) Rangel (D-SC [iirc]).

In addition to being a vehicle for class warfare, the bill has been used during this campaign season, as a tool by the libs to scare voters; e.g., "A vote for Bush is a vote for the draft!" (never mind that it was sponsored by a liberal Democrat).

The bill has been in committee for a year and a half now, and I predicted it would be kept there.

Boy was I wrong!

The House GOP brought that fucking bill to the floor today and forced a RECORDED vote.

The final count:

2 for (Rangel and some other schmuck).....

AND 402 AGAINST!

I said it before, but it bears repeating...

A I N ' T

G O N N A

H A P P E N !!!



.

The bill was brought out of committee a month before the election for campaigning purposes and no politician in his right mind would vote for drafting young men for slaughter just before an election.

Take off your ideological blinders, dude. I believe you see what you want to see.

Michael

[Guest]

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I believe you see what you want to see.

Michael

I know some Libs will come out in the media and pour perfume on shit......

I saw Kerry making the draft a campaign issue, and now he can't...

It's interesting, isn't it, that the Libs were against the draft because "Only the poor get drafted".

Now they want to reinstate it because "Only the poor get drafted"...

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS...

mh

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[Zenister 0]

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It's interesting, isn't it, that the Libs were against the draft because "Only the poor get drafted".

Now they want to reinstate it because "Only the poor get drafted"...

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS...

actually the reason they considered reinstating it (and it was only considered, this bill had no chance of passing it was offered to congress instead to make an ideological point.) is that the all volunteer military comes more from the lower class than any other.. circa WWII draft the military came from all walks/classes, and the idea is that if our military is going to be used in this manner, to protect the people, the democracy it should reflect that democracy more than it currently does...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skydyvr 0]

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. . . by Dick(head) Rangel.

All extreme liberals are Dick(head)s.

Good thing there ain't too many of them in power.

. . =(_8^(1)

[MC208B 0]

the draft during the Vietnam era was mostly lower class folks too just like todays volunteer military.

[Zenister 0]

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the draft during the Vietnam era was mostly lower class folks too just like todays volunteer military.

yes because of the obscene number of deferments offered, and primarily available to those of 'privilege'.... if we reinstate the draft it should return to a system closer to the one used during WW2

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Guest]

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the draft during the Vietnam era was mostly lower class folks too just like todays volunteer military.

yes because of the obscene number of deferments offered, and primarily available to those of 'privilege'.... if we reinstate the draft it should return to a system closer to the one used during WW2

Please search this forum for my earlier remarks on this debate, especially some of the exchanges I had with Paul Quade, among others.

Please see also my pasting of transcripts from James Dunnigan's Strategy Page ("Why the Draft is Really Dead", et cetera).

Universal conscription is (and always has been) universally unpopular, and for many good reasons.

Someone else on this forum remarked (paraphrased) that it's cultural suicide to pull a biology PhD out of the laboratory and put him in a trench with a rifle.

No matter what is done, something like conscription can never be egalitarian.

Voluntary service is by definition the perfect example of egalitarian function, because no one HAS TO be there.

Anyone who argues for anything else is almost always using the draft as a class warfare tool, not because they care about the poor, or the military, or this country.

mh

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[free_man 0]

What moron congressman would vote for a draft bill prior to the election?

Political suicide.

This was just to pacify the sheeple.

Watch what happens after election and in january after inauguration.

Oh, how about voting for a candidate who is against the war, have to vote third party though, wonder why?

“…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.”
Bill Hicks, Relentless

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Quote

I believe you see what you want to see.

Michael

I know some Libs will come out in the media and pour perfume on shit......

I saw Kerry making the draft a campaign issue, and now he can't...

It's interesting, isn't it, that the Libs were against the draft because "Only the poor get drafted".

Now they want to reinstate it because "Only the poor get drafted"...

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS...

mh

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Once again for those who missed the last draft thread. Let me explaing something clearly and slowly.

The draft is NOT a partisan issue. There are several bills in the house to reinstitute the draft. Two were introduced and sponsored by Democrats. One was introduced and sponsored by Republicans.

There is also a bill opposing any draft. Introduced and sponsored by both Democrats and Republicans.

The draft issue, either pro or con, is not a liberal/conservative or democrat/republican issue. It is an individual issue that croses party lines and political ideologies.

[Zenister 0]

and if we believe that war (particularly a long term ‘pre-emptive’ war) is necessary for defense we should be willing to make that 'cultural sacrifice', if we are not then perhaps our reasons for war are not significant enough to justify it.

If we are defending our democracy the defenders should come from EVERY sector of that democracy, not simply from those who by attitude or social circumstance decided that the military was a path for them...


those in power will be significantly less likely to use the weapon of the military for insignificant ill substantiated reasons when the tip of the sword consists of their loved ones as well... maybe you should go look at the class structure of the military circa WW2... its certainly not egalitarian but it was a hell of alot more balanced than it is now...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 2,027]

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Someone else on this forum remarked (paraphrased) that it's cultural suicide to pull a biology PhD out of the laboratory and put him in a trench with a rifle.

I believe I have mentioned several times the stupidity of putting Henry Moseley in the infantry and sending him to Gallipoli in WWI. Moseley was the discoverer of the concept of "Atomic Number", devised the technique to determine the atomic number of any atomic species, and fixed up the errors in the Periodic Table. Moseley was kia in 1915.

By WWII the governments had become more sensible about this sort of thing, which is why Richard Feynman and others like him went to Los Alamos rather than to Iwo Jima.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

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Quote

Someone else on this forum remarked (paraphrased) that it's cultural suicide to pull a biology PhD out of the laboratory and put him in a trench with a rifle.

I believe I have mentioned several times the stupidity of putting Henry Moseley in the infantry and sending him to Gallipoli in WWI. Moseley was the discoverer of the concept of "Atomic Number", devised the technique to determine the atomic number of any atomic species, and fixed up the errors in the Periodic Table. Moseley was kia in 1915.

By WWII the governments had become more sensible about this sort of thing, which is why Richard Feynman and others like him went to Los Alamos rather than to Iwo Jima.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"...dolce decorum est, pro patria mori" - NOT.

mh

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[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Someone else on this forum remarked (paraphrased) that it's cultural suicide to pull a biology PhD out of the laboratory and put him in a trench with a rifle.

I believe I have mentioned several times the stupidity of putting Henry Moseley in the infantry and sending him to Gallipoli in WWI. Moseley was the discoverer of the concept of "Atomic Number", devised the technique to determine the atomic number of any atomic species, and fixed up the errors in the Periodic Table. Moseley was kia in 1915.

By WWII the governments had become more sensible about this sort of thing, which is why Richard Feynman and others like him went to Los Alamos rather than to Iwo Jima.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

"...dolce decorum est, pro patria mori" - NOT.

mh

.

Dulce Et Decorum Est


Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,

Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,

Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs

And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots

But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;

Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots

Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.


GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,

Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;

But someone still was yelling out and stumbling

And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light

As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.


In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,

He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.


If in some smothering dreams you too could pace

Behind the wagon that we flung him in,

And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,

His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood

Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud

Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est

Pro patria mori.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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What moron congressman would vote for a draft bill prior to the election?

Political suicide.

This was just to pacify the sheeple.

Watch what happens after election and in january after inauguration.

Oh, how about voting for a candidate who is against the war, have to vote third party though, wonder why?

So when a Republican doesn't say he's against the draft, he's for it.

When a Republican casts a vote to NOT reinstitute a draft, he isn't really against it -- he's just posing for an election campaign.

Liberals really don't see the hypocrisy of their insistence on having it both ways.

Apparently, there is NOTHING Republicans can do to satisfy the liberals that they don't want a draft. If they keep their mouths shut, they are accused of secretly wanting to do it. If they VOTE in CONGRESS to not do it, they are insincere.

I think it's time that Republicans gave up trying to convince liberals of their good intentions because liberals never believe them, and won't ever concede anything in good faith.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[tunaplanet 0]

This was actually an extremely clever move by the republicans.

Rangal drafts a bill to reinstate the draft...not because he is in favor of it but so Kerry can scare the voters with it.

"Look, there's a bill in congress trying to bring back the draft and Bush will sign off on it if you all re-elect him."

So the bring this bill to the floor for a vote. Everyone was shocked, especially Rangal. No one dreamed they would bring it forth.

And why did they bring it to a vote? So they could show the Americans that this was a horseshit bill designed strictly to scare voters to turn to Kerry.

Oh, by the way, even Rangal voted against his own fucking bill.

Guess all those bullshit MTV commercials telling us that Bush will draft you if you vote for him are now officially debunked.

MTV...stay out of politics and stick to showing your lame videos and even lamer reality shows.

Forty-two

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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and if we believe that war (particularly a long term ‘pre-emptive’ war) is necessary for defense we should be willing to make that 'cultural sacrifice', if we are not then perhaps our reasons for war are not significant enough to justify it.

The only time we should ever go to war to defend our culture and our lives is when we are willing to risk going to war being the cause of the destruction of our culture and our lives?

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If we are defending our democracy the defenders should come from EVERY sector of that democracy, not simply from those who by attitude or social circumstance decided that the military was a path for them...

Where did this supposed axiom come from? What makes it axiomatic that for a war to be justified, each segment of the fighting force must come proportionally from each of the "strata" of society?

It sounds like what you're saying is that the fighting force must be made up of (a) those who chose to be a part of that fighting force, and (b) those who specifically chose not to be a part of it. That cheapens the freedom of choice of both segments.

It also seems clear what others have said, that it makes little sense to sacrifice, in the trenches, the brightest minds, who are put to far better use in other endeavors (medicine, leadership, philosophy, engineering, even art) -- for what? "Fairness"?? That seems petty and trivial in the grand scheme.

Should a society that is considering war have to force the war, which presumably would be fought to protect and defend that society, to be the cause of that society's downfall? That's circular, and self-defeating.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Oh, by the way, even Rangal voted against his own fucking bill.

This kind of atrocity -- this disingenuous mendacity, duplicity and scheming -- should be punishable as a crime, and removal from public office with a ban against ever holding such office again.

When people in Congress craft legislation whose intent is SOLELY TO SCHEME AGAINST THE OPPOSITION PARTY, they don't deserve to be congressmen.

The only excuse for voting against your own bill would be if it were poisoned with amendments that are counter to the spirit and purpose of the bill, or are otherwise unrelated and are opposed by the sponsor.

Rangel should have his demagoguic ass kicked out of congress.
He voted against his own bill? What a piece of SHIT!

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[free_man 0]

Post:
In Reply To
What moron congressman would vote for a draft bill prior to the election?

Political suicide.

This was just to pacify the sheeple.

Watch what happens after election and in january after inauguration.

Oh, how about voting for a candidate who is against the war, have to vote third party though, wonder why?

So when a Republican doesn't say he's against the draft, he's for it.

When a Republican casts a vote to NOT reinstitute a draft, he isn't really against it -- he's just posing for an election campaign.

Liberals really don't see the hypocrisy of their insistence on having it both ways.

Apparently, there is NOTHING Republicans can do to satisfy the liberals that they don't want a draft. If they keep their mouths shut, they are accused of secretly wanting to do it. If they VOTE in CONGRESS to not do it, they are insincere.

I think it's time that Republicans gave up trying to convince liberals of their good intentions because liberals never believe them, and won't ever concede anything in good faith.

-Jeffrey

_____________________________________

Where do I state anything about Republicans or liberals?

Any of them that would vote for a draft bill prior to election would be committing political suicide. Rarely will we see any controversial, partisan legisiation prior to an election.

“…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.”
Bill Hicks, Relentless