No child unrecruited

[PhillyKev 0]

Ok, give me ONE example of how you would fund vouchers without raising taxes or taking the money from another program.

[TheAnvil 0]

Taking money from another program is a viable option - why do you think it wouldn't be? You've now shifted from unsuccessfully arguing against the benefits of school vouchers to inanities about how one might fund them. Are you getting this from a list of NEA talking points?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

No, I'm going back to my original point. That by funding school vouchers you will be removing money from students who don't benefit from the vouchers.

[TheAnvil 0]

No, you're not. Budgets for counties and states, believe it or not, contain programs and items other than education from which funds may be redirected. Your point is not salient.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

So, you're proposing vouchers in addition to existing funding? That I have no problem with (depending on where money is cut from). When and where has that been proposed and opposed?

[wmw999 2,452]

The funding of any program is part of how good an idea it is. Believe it or not, many of the unglamorous things that counties and cities do are thought to be necessary -- janitorial work, street repair, police, jails, paying city council, and the list goes on. And there are other good ideas contending for those same resources.

It's easy to propose an idea. I like the idea of a large pay raise for everyone.

Oh wait -- it has to be paid for?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TheAnvil 0]

Counties and states have done so already and done so successfully - until NEA/ACLU lawsuits get the FULLY WORKING programs declared unconstitutional by some wacko judge. The state of FL had a nice program, DC had a good program, and I believe CO did as well.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Counties and states have done so already and done so successfully - until NEA/ACLU lawsuits get the FULLY WORKING programs declared unconstitutional by some wacko judge. The state of FL had a nice program, DC had a good program, and I believe CO did as well.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Nightingale 0]

well, many people don't want their tax dollars to support religious schools, especially the ones that teach "creation 'science'" I don't have a problem with tax dollars going to accredited private schools. I do, however, have a problem with tax dollars going to religious schools. You want someone to teach your kids about church, you pay for it.

[TheAnvil 0]

Ahhhh...so accredited religious schools receiving school vouchers constitute a law effecting and establishment of religion? I think not. Asinine by all accounts. I don't want my tax dollars supporting public institutions that have racially discriminatory admissions policies, yet my $$ do so against my will. Compare and contrast the students from any religious accredited school with students of failing public schools anytime you like - and then see which one you would rather have your children attend.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[ahegeman 0]

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Ok, give me ONE example of how you would fund vouchers without raising taxes or taking the money from another program.

Fewer kids in the public school means that less money is required. Of course, some portion of per pupil expense is fixed, but if enough students use the vouchers then fewer teachers, textbooks, buildings, etc. would be required. Who knows what portion of the per-pupil cost is fixed? But if a school district spends $8K per student, and hands out a $6K voucher, they may not actually end up with less money to spend per student.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[rehmwa 2]

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Ok, give me ONE example of how you would fund vouchers without raising taxes or taking the money from another program.

Fewer kids in the public school means that less money is required. Of course, some portion of per pupil expense is fixed, but if enough students use the vouchers then fewer teachers, textbooks, buildings, etc. would be required. Who knows what portion of the per-pupil cost is fixed? But if a school district spends $8K per student, and hands out a $6K voucher, they may not actually end up with less money to spend per student.

Been waiting for that argument - Also, if fewer teachers are needed and teachers are allowed to be fired if they do poorly (merit based staff retention), then the remaining student have more access to the remaining better teachers.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

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Ok, give me ONE example of how you would fund vouchers without raising taxes or taking the money from another program.

Fewer kids in the public school means that less money is required. Of course, some portion of per pupil expense is fixed, but if enough students use the vouchers then fewer teachers, textbooks, buildings, etc. would be required. Who knows what portion of the per-pupil cost is fixed? But if a school district spends $8K per student, and hands out a $6K voucher, they may not actually end up with less money to spend per student.

Been waiting for that argument - Also, if fewer teachers are needed and teachers are allowed to be fired if they do poorly (merit based staff retention), then the remaining student have more access to the remaining better teachers.

So increased class size is the solution, then?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ahegeman 0]

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So increased class size is the solution, then?

No, dude. Fewer students = fewer teachers needed for the same student/teacher ratio.

As an aside, though - I'll take a good, dedicated, and experienced teacher with 40 students over a jackass with 20 any day.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[Nightingale 0]

If I had kids, I'd send them to public school.

Parochial schools are generally behind in math and science.

My uncle is Dean of the School of Education at a Catholic university and was ordained a jesuit priest. He used to teach at a catholic high school. He advises, when asked, that kids be sent to public schools as opposed to catholic because public schools offer better quality of education, and religious education can be found through church programs.

My aunt has a PhD in education from USC. She teaches at a catholic university. She's very catholic and attended catholic schools herself. Her kids go to public school. There's a catholic school right down the street, but my aunt chooses to drive them farther to attend the public school, because she feels it offers her kids a better quality of education.

My mom used to teach at a catholic school. My brother and I went to catholic school, until my mom started working on her credential and master's degree at USC, and learned more about the public school system. My brother and I were then switched to public school, and, having attended both, I feel I got a much higher quality of education at the public schools. My mom now teaches at a public school, was just appointed head of her department,, and raves about the superior educational programs, more qualified faculty and better administrative support.

I used to teach at a catholic school. I've done volunteer work at public schools. I have a master's degree in education from a catholic university. I would never advise anyone to send their kids to catholic or parochial school. The quality of education simply isn't as high as the majority of public schools in this area, LAUSD included. A private school may be a good option, but parochial schools are seldom the best educational optionn (yes, there are a few exceptions). Religious higher education is often superior than public universities, but elementary and high schools are often lacking in quality educational programs, qualified teachers, and educational texts and other materials.

[TheAnvil 0]

The schools of which you speak seem to be far from failing - and therefore an inappropriate comparison for the purpose at hand.

Quite interesting however.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Nightingale 0]

There aren't as many "failing" public schools as you'd think from watching the news.

even LAUSD, which is usually cited as an example of a failing district, has many more successful schools than it does problem schools. The problem schools are generally in rotten areas of town, and the kids face all the troubles that I listed a bit farther up in the thread. The majority of the problem doesn't lie in the school, it lies in the environment the kids grow up in. The parents in those areas don't have the time or usually even a car to drive their kids to a parochial school. Parochial schools don't usually exist in really bad parts of town. Los Angeles public transportation sucks. It sometimes takes two hours on a bus just to travel to a different zip code.

I went to the archdiocese of Los Angeles website and punched in the zip code for downtown LA. there are NO catholic elementary schools in that zip code.

I think a voucher program would be a good idea IF it would do what you claim it would. However, the majority of evidence is to the contrary.

[kallend 2,027]

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So increased class size is the solution, then?

No, dude. Fewer students = fewer teachers needed for the same student/teacher ratio.

As an aside, though - I'll take a good, dedicated, and experienced teacher with 40 students over a jackass with 20 any day.

Why are there fewer students? Is the birth rate going down?

You will need the same number of teachers total with or without vouchers. Where will this supply of outstanding private school teachers come from?

The voucher proposal is just another manifestation of Voodoo Economics - a sham for the benefit of the wealthy who already send their kids to private schools.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Again- the voucher solution is not apropos for all situations. That's why it should be states and local governments that decide when to implement them. Nor are they a government endorsement of religion when used by parents to pay towards tuition at an accredited parochial/religious school. They are a viable means for a better education for SOME - but not all - children in sub-par school districts.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[livendive 8]

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Also, if fewer teachers are needed and teachers are allowed to be fired if they do poorly (merit based staff retention), then the remaining student have more access to the remaining better teachers.

How many of those better teachers will still be in the publicly funded schools? You don't suspect they'll be recruited to man the explosion of private schools that are now voucer-funded? Or will the voucher schools only get the the bad teachers who are fired from the public schools?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Nightingale 0]

out here, public school pays much better than private, which is why a lot of private school teachers are uncredentialed and underqualified.