Will you send you Cypres in for a 4/8 year check

[bodypilot90 0]

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t is pretty clear that the decision to send, or not send a "post 2015" unit in won't have to be made until 2020. Kinda rushing it to put it as a poll question now?

No not at all. The fans of cypres has always said the four year check was what they liked and I wanted to see if they would put money in the check when it was not required. I too think SSK is great to work with as well.

I would not use a rigger that demanded I do something that was suggested and not required. It's your loft but I'll vote with my money and go to a different rigger. It's my rig and I have the final say period.

[ChrisHoward 8]

gowlerk

You may want to review your knowledge of AAD maintenance requirements. The Vigil 2+ needs to be sent in after ten years for a battery replacement. All Vigils require a new battery after ten years. Models older than he 2+ are field replaceable.

I am well aware of the requirements. They also say to expect + or - 5 years or at least 2000 jumps. Which in my world is far less than 10 years.

gowlerk

They did not slip in any such requirement as you state.

It seems to me that after all these years of advertising maintenance free equipment they have neatly slipped in a mandatory return to the factory. For what purpose? Battery change? I am sceptical.
For the poll, I jump Cypres, always have, always will. And yes I will send mine in on their maintenance dates.

[gowlerk 2,190]

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I don't remember you being this out spoken last year when AAD slipped in a mandatory 4 year factory return on the Vigil 2+ while still claiming they have no service cycle.

Oh, since this is what you posted, I thought it might be what you believed. I'm skeptical as well. But I'm more skeptical of Airtec than I am of AAD. But only slightly so.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[pchapman 279]

ChrisHoward

I am well aware of the requirements. They also say to expect + or - 5 years or at least 2000 jumps.

I dug into the wording a little more -- The 5 years is a minimum expected not an average

Vigil 2+ manual:

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The battery’s life span is expected to be a minimum of 5 years, or 2000 jumps. When the «Bat Low» or «Bat Rpl» message appears, the battery pack needs to be replaced (see page 29 § 7.1).
Regardless of the above-stated life span, the battery pack must be replaced after 10 years of use (max. operational lifetime).

It is barely changed from the Vigil II manual that states:

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The battery’s life span is minimum 5 years or 2000 jumps. When the «Bat Low» or «Bat Rpl» message appears, the battery pack needs to be replaced (see chapter 7).
The battery pack must be replaced after 10 years of use (max. operational lifetime).

Edit: P.S. - The battery stock number they quote is the same for the Vigil II and Vigil 2+. I suppose for replacement, it would be just a matter of whether one can open the case (I can't recall the screw types used on the 2+) and whether one is OK with breaking the warranty....

[dpreguy 14]

yawn...renew your poll/post in 2020...yawn

[dorbie 0]

Damn, I might have gotten a new Cypres2 if I'd read about this.

If that's their recommended schedule then 4 & 8 is not the only option for voluntary maintenance.

[dorbie 0]

dpreguy

yawn...renew your poll/post in 2020...yawn

Good point, and consider that when that day rolls around some will be faced with jumping with no AAD for 180 days (a repack cycle) to send theirs in for maintenance, (maybe less if they want to spend extra or have a good relationship with their rigger). That might change the equation when they weigh that reality in the balance.

All other things being equal, mandatory maintenance for *some* who kept jumping for a full repack cycle represented an 11% lack of AAD coverage. That's a piss poor mandated failure rate in pursuit of a perfect save rate.

When the medicine is worse than the disease it's time to stop taking it.

Yes I know I'm conflating failure to save with yanking an AAD out and shipping it off, but from a statistics perspective it is no different if you keep jumping the same. How many people have gone in while their AAD was in for maintenance? I have no idea. But mandatory maintenance is not the safest option when you factor in human behavior and skydivers jumping without AADs for a few weeks or even a full a repack cycle when maintenance rolls around. This recognizes that and it's a positive development.

[dorbie 0]

There's a false dichotomy here, most jumpers ground themselves while their AAD is in for service and leave their rig with their rigger, but not all.

[bodypilot90 0]

most I know of only a few, but here in Florida we jump 12 months a year.

[dorbie 0]

bodypilot90

most I know of only a few, but here in Florida we jump 12 months a year.

Same here in California. I'm just going by what the most popular local rigger told me of his customers. There is a third cadre who'll jump until the AAD comes back from service and get the rig opened up to put it back in so not the full 180 days, and perhaps those dominate the numbers. That turns that 11% into a smaller number, probably closer to 2% but still a significant downside to mandated service.

I've been offered a rental AAD in the past by a rigger, not sure if that's still a thing, it's been a while since i sent one in.

Opinions on the advisability of that mandated service might depend on whether you include the AADless jumps of the 2% and 11% cohorts in your consideration

[Skybear 0]

I just called Airtec to find out what is behind the "highly recommended" maintenance. Helmut Cloth himself was on the phone and explained a bit of the background.

Since the mid-90s his customers in some parts of the world, especially South America, Eastern Europa and some asian countries, had troubles with customs when receiving their units back from service. The whole issue was solely mad by corrupt customs officers who tried quite often to rip-off skydivers in this countries. Usually they (customs) were in a powerful position and therefore successful. The new rule is made to allow people jumping there Cypres for more than 4 years when they are absolutely forced to do so.
The downside of this is that IF you skip the service your are losing warranty. If you DON'T SKIP service you keep the 12,5-year warranty as it was in the past.

My opinion: I will send it in for service. Two services over the lifetime cost around 320€ in Germany. That's 2,13€ per month over 12,5 years. Most life insurances cost more and they don't even save my life when I need it.

@gowlerk: Why are you hating Airtec that much? Everytime when a Cypres topic comes up you start a real serious bashing. Why? Can you please explain?

[skytribe 17]

So since the mid 90's this customs thing has been happening. But 20 years later when competition is gaining ground this becomes the reason for change. How very convenient.

If that was the real reason, then its taken them 20 years to come to a conclusion that 4/8 year service wasn't required and have been using this as a convenient revenue stream for decades.

And why does this apply to the new units only ? Airtech's reasoning doesn't extend to their existing customers who may benefit from this servicing requirement. Only to new customers who have a choice of which units to buy.

[gowlerk 2,190]

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@gowlerk: Why are you hating Airtec that much? Everytime when a Cypres topic comes up you start a real serious bashing. Why? Can you please explain?

I think I did earlier. But to restate, I find Airtec to be arrogant, boastful, condesending, and out of touch. Their product is fine, for what it is. But it is no better than the competition and the cost of it is far higher.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Skybear 0]

Got that point. I think the same of some other companies inside and outside of skydiving. I don't buy their products and don't care. This keeps my blood pressure pretty low. Think about it It's a free country and everybody can choose.

[gowlerk 2,190]

Skybear

Got that point. I think the same of some other companies inside and outside of skydiving. I don't buy their products and don't care. This keeps my blood pressure pretty low. Think about it It's a free country and everybody can choose.

I largely agree. Mostly I just ignore these things. But as a rigger it comes into my life often. People ask me for advice and I give it. But I never question anyone's choice.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[douwanto 22]

This is about loosing market share to Vigil and m2 plain and simple. Lets you know how bad they have been gigging us all along. I once bought 2 rigs that had never had their 4 years and were due their 8 years. I asked them to just do the 8 year and they refused. SSK charged me for both the 4 years and 8 years. Fuck them. I changed everything over the minute Vigil came out and share my experience with Cypres with every AFF student and rigging customer.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[Unstable 9]

Quote

This is about loosing market share to Vigil and m2 plain and simple. Lets you know how bad they have been gigging us all along. I once bought 2 rigs that had never had their 4 years and were due their 8 years. I asked them to just do the 8 year and they refused. SSK charged me for both the 4 years and 8 years. Fuck them. I changed everything over the minute Vigil came out and share my experience with Cypres with every AFF student and rigging customer.

WOW, I had a rigging customer come to me with the EXACT same scenario. He bought a rig that had no 4-year done and was approaching the 8-year. I called SSK, explained the situation, and we just paid for the 8-year. I'd like someone from SSK or cypres to chime in on that and their Standard procedure in those cases..

=========Shaun ==========

[BrianM 1]

Unstable

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This is about loosing market share to Vigil and m2 plain and simple. Lets you know how bad they have been gigging us all along. I once bought 2 rigs that had never had their 4 years and were due their 8 years. I asked them to just do the 8 year and they refused. SSK charged me for both the 4 years and 8 years. Fuck them. I changed everything over the minute Vigil came out and share my experience with Cypres with every AFF student and rigging customer.

WOW, I had a rigging customer come to me with the EXACT same scenario. He bought a rig that had no 4-year done and was approaching the 8-year. I called SSK, explained the situation, and we just paid for the 8-year. I'd like someone from SSK or cypres to chime in on that and their Standard procedure in those cases..

I've dealt with that situation a number of times, only ever paid for one service. I think they used to charge for both, but not for a long time.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[degeneration 5]

Well, for people in the UK, or rather BPA members, the decision from the manufacturers of the Cypres has been over-ruled by the BPA, and it is still considered a MANDATORY service at each of 4 and 8 years.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/assets/Stay-safe/Safety-informtion-bulletins/108.-Bulletin-2-16-06-06-16-Mandatory-Cypres-AAD-Maintenance.pdf

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[BrianM 1]

degeneration

Well, for people in the UK, or rather BPA members, the decision from the manufacturers of the Cypres has been over-ruled by the BPA, and it is still considered a MANDATORY service at each of 4 and 8 years.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/assets/Stay-safe/Safety-informtion-bulletins/108.-Bulletin-2-16-06-06-16-Mandatory-Cypres-AAD-Maintenance.pdf

Interesting. I guess the BPA knows better than the manufacturer...

Does the BPA also mandate that Vigil's and M2's be sent for maintenance every 4 years, even though the manufacturers don't require it? (That's mostly a rhetorical question).

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[dorbie 0]

BrianM

***Well, for people in the UK, or rather BPA members, the decision from the manufacturers of the Cypres has been over-ruled by the BPA, and it is still considered a MANDATORY service at each of 4 and 8 years.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/assets/Stay-safe/Safety-informtion-bulletins/108.-Bulletin-2-16-06-06-16-Mandatory-Cypres-AAD-Maintenance.pdf

Interesting. I guess the BPA knows better than the manufacturer...

Does the BPA also mandate that Vigil's and M2's be sent for maintenance every 4 years, even though the manufacturers don't require it? (That's mostly a rhetorical question).

SILENCE, the BPA riggers subcommittee has spoken and they know a thing or two about safety critical electronic engi.... oh shit, nevermind.

Hey they "felt" this, and that should be reason enough for anyone.

[sudo242 0]

I just thought I would share my experience that I just had regarding this matter, sorry for posting to an old thread. But I think it is relevant to the discussion. I just ordered a new rig. I asked the vendor to make sure the Cypres2 that I get is manufactured after January 1st so that I have the option on the maintenance. Here is the response that I got from them:

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All units we have in stock today have a DOM of after January of this year. But below is a bit more information on the service from AirTec.

Some readers of our "maintenance recommended" statement got the false impression that Airtec has changed its philosophy or behavior. We have to clarify: That is absolutely not the case.

The reason for our move is that we have users in countries that are subject to corruption. They can not send their units in for maintenance because when the devices return to their country, there are "fees". We have heard of up to $ 500 for processing one CYPRES.

With our statement we want to help those people - this should enable them to choose the best of all options.

For everybody else our decision should have no effect. You can send your CYPRES for maintenance like the last 23 years. No change at all.

If there was a way, we would have kept the mandatory status except for those skydivers directly affected by corruption. But this is not possible.

Please be aware, that the quality and the excellence of the CYPRES result from more than the maintenance, namely from:
Its technical construction (which needed 4 years of scientific development)
Its extraordinary manufacturing process (16 days of handwork in Germany)
Its maintenance (there is absolutely no reason to skip it unless you are forced to)

I'll still do the maintenance, but can have the option of waiting until the winter when I won't be using the rig.

[BrianM 1]

So much for the "technical changes that permit this decision"...

sudo242

I'll still do the maintenance, but can have the option of waiting until the winter when I won't be using the rig.

You already had that option. The Cypres 2 has a 13 month window for the maintenance (the anniversary month +/- 6 months).

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg