Trent 0 #26 October 12, 2004 QuoteYou just gave a list of things we do that get them to hate us, then you ask if it's our fault that they hate us? So you think those are good enough reasons for people to kill civilians and wreak terror throughout the world? Good for you. QuoteDid you really just refer to the arabs we don't kill as "leftovers?" Are you still wondering why so many of them hate us? Imagine if your family were described as 9/11 leftovers. Yep, I did. And I'm betting that that's not why they hate us. I wouldn't be too surprised if a militant islamic guy didn't already realize that we didn't value his life very much. Oooh ooooh and guess what, I bet somewhere some of those "jihadis" are referring to the remaining US population as "Americans we haven't killed yet". Fuck em.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #27 October 12, 2004 I don't think he said they were good enough. There isn't a good enough reason to send me to fly an airplane into a building. But then, there isn't a good enough reason to get me to abuse prisoners in my complete control, either, and we have pictures of Americans doing that. Why is it so hard to believe that some people can hate us for our actions and words? We hate others for their actions and words. There are people who were appalled that some Palestinians rejoiced at the WTC falling down. That wasn't all of them, but there were Americans who considered that to be representative. We have Americans who think it's OK that prisoners are disappearing. Would we think it was OK for Americans held to disappear? We sure don't think it's OK for them to be killed (and it's not). Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #28 October 12, 2004 What bothers me most is that there are really people out there that are de-facto terrorist apologists. "They're mad at us because we put our troops on holy ground, it's really our fault" "They're mad at us because we help Israel exists, so you see, it's our fault" "They're mad at us because the west killed many arabs in the crusades, so we should be ashamed of ourselves" "They're mad at us because we allowed oil companies to exploit their natural resources, what bastards we are!" "They're mad at us and want to kill us because we can CHOOSE to be Jewish or Christian or Muslim and don't put up with a religion-based government, how can we not see the light??" It's one thing to know why they're mad, another to sympathize. Some people would just rather blame the US for everything, because it's just not right to point out that that group over there is causing problems... that'd be racist and anti-islam.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #29 October 12, 2004 I'm sure there are people who sympathize, but that's way different from understanding. And wanting the US to be the best we think it can be doesn't mean that the other guy is right. It just means that we're not basing our actions on what they do, but on what we think is right. Yeah, I know -- sometimes we disagree on what's right. But if we're focused on that, and not on pointing out how wrong the other guy is, and not on how much better we are than that other guy, then I at least will be happier. And we all know it's all about me and how happy I am Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #30 October 12, 2004 >So you think those are good enough reasons for people to kill >civilians and wreak terror throughout the world? No. They are not good enough reasons; they are just reasons. If someone raped a friend of yours, you might well want to kill them. That doesn't mean that rape is a "good enough reason" for premeditated murder. >I bet somewhere some of those "jihadis" are referring to the remaining >US population as "Americans we haven't killed yet". Fuck em. Yet by your standards you are no better than they; you feel exactly the same way about them. With both sides coming up with valid reasons to hate the other this war will never end. Personally, I think most arabs are just like us, and we should treat them like we want US citizens to be treated. I think we should fight the terrorists, not the arabs - whether those terrorists look like Timothy McVeich, Osama Bin Laden or Amanat Nagayeva. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #31 October 12, 2004 QuotePersonally, I think most arabs are just like us, and we should treat them like we want US citizens to be treated. And that's the problem Bill. they are not just like us, they don't think like we do, their value systems are different, and life is very, very cheap to them. In order to resolve issues with them, we must understand how they think and why. Then approach them from positions that they understand and respect. To treat them like us/Americans who they despise and disrespect does not solve the basic problem. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #32 October 12, 2004 Don't assume they have the same cultural values (guilty until proven innocent, equality for all, democracy is good), but if we treat them as though they have the same human values (their families are important, their religion is important to them, their values are important to them) we're a step up. And if we behave as though our cultural values are important to US, then we make it clear that these things help to make us strong in and of ourselves, and not at the expense of others. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #33 October 12, 2004 QuoteThey are not good enough reasons; they are just reasons. If someone raped a friend of yours, you might well want to kill them. That doesn't mean that rape is a "good enough reason" for premeditated murder. No. If I did that, then I'd have decided that rape was a good enough reason for me to kill the rapist. So are the reasons you list good enough for you to sympathize with them? QuoteYet by your standards you are no better than they; you feel exactly the same way about them. With both sides coming up with valid reasons to hate the other this war will never end. No again... I think I am better than the militant islamic jihadis, that's why I want them wiped out... not my own people. Either way, you're always claiming that we're no better than them anyway... so if we're all equal really, can we be better than them? QuotePersonally, I think most arabs are just like us, and we should treat them like we want US citizens to be treated. I think we should fight the terrorists, not the arabs - whether those terrorists look like Timothy McVeich, Osama Bin Laden or Amanat Nagayeva. We are fighting the terrorists... the good, law abiding, life valuing arabs are not blowing shit up and running in the streets with RPGs. The terrorists hide behind these people and get them killed. How can we go "understand" them to a peaceful solution?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #34 October 12, 2004 QuoteI think most arabs are just like us, and we should treat them like we want US citizens to be treated Its not about Arabs, I don't think we have a beef with, or are fighting most Arabs as a group... its about radical muslim extremists... growing their religion (or what they think their religion ought to be) through violence in unacceptable... it needs faced and stopped... there is no reasoning with the unreasonable... Radical islamic extremists attacked our civilians, not our military, and that is the only valid reason on the table. The prison abuse thing should not have happend... did they attack the prison guards, no, they kidnapped and beheaded people who had nothing to do with it. The verman that do these things do not deserve any place at the table. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #35 October 12, 2004 Quotebut if we treat them as though they have the same human values (their families are important, their religion is important to them, their values are important to them) we're a step up. Perhaps if they acted like those things were important to them, we would be a step closer... but they do not. QuoteAnd if we behave as though our cultural values are important Generally speaking, we do... I have not found a soldier yet who said the prison abuse thing was cool with them, to include trained Intel people. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #36 October 12, 2004 >And that's the problem Bill. they are not just like us, they don't think >like we do, their value systems are different, and life is very, very cheap >to them. I can remember when blacks were described the same way. It justified all manner of oppression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #37 October 12, 2004 That comment was unjustified Bill. I am not a racist and I doubt seriously that you are old enough to have remembered comments like that. You may have read it somewhere. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #38 October 12, 2004 >So are the reasons you list good enough for you to sympathize with them? No. >No again... I think I am better than the militant islamic jihadis, that's >why I want them wiped out... not my own people. And they think exactly the same way, for the same reasons. We have to understand why people are fighting us if we are ever going to be able to bring peace to that area. Even military strategists understand this. >We are fighting the terrorists... the good, law abiding, life valuing arabs > are not blowing shit up and running in the streets with RPGs. The > terrorists hide behind these people and get them killed. How can we go > "understand" them to a peaceful solution? The only understanding we need is that arabs do not equal terrorists, and we should not call innocent arabs (as one poster here did) "leftovers" from the ones we didn't kill. That's the sort of thinking that will help make sure we will be in Iraq fighting a war we can't win for decades. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #39 October 12, 2004 >I am not a racist . . . I didn't say you were. But claiming that a certain people (arabs, blacks, japanese, germans whatever) do not have the same values as "normal" people is an angle that has been used, often with great success, to convince people that they do not need to be treated the same way as normal people. It's much easier to kill or subjugate people who are sub-human. Arabs are people, like everyone else. They love their kids the same way. They see them off to war the same way, whether that war is a US invasion of another country or a desperate attempt to defend their home against what they see as an evil invader. And they feel the same pain when their children are killed. We would do well to understand this. Does this mean we should never kill anyone because they might be someone's kid? Of course not. But we should understand that when we do that, we create exactly the same kind of rage you would feel if your child were killed. Some innocent people will be killed in any war, and the hatred that creates must be dealt with, not dismissed as "crazy arabs probably don't even respect life" or something. To dismiss it is to misunderstand what's going on in Iraq - and misunderstandings will lead to even more dead US soldiers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #40 October 12, 2004 Quotedesperate attempt to defend their home against what they see as an evil invader. If that were the majority of those fighting us over there, I would be able to understand... but its not, nor does it justify beheading people who are helping to rebuild. Edit to add: You, Bill, seem to be the one making out the fight to be against Arabs... Trent and others have said many times that there is a difference between terrorists who happen to be Arab, and all Arabs, and if fact the terrorists who we are fighting who are not all Arab. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
free_man 0 #41 October 13, 2004 Have you seen "What I've Learned About US Foreign Policy: The War Against The Third World"? http://www.addictedtowar.com/index.html A lot of pissed off people. “…because I hope you know this, I think you do…all governments are lying cocksuckers.” Bill Hicks, Relentless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #42 October 13, 2004 QuoteRadical islamic extremists attacked our civilians, not our military, and that is the only valid reason on the table. The U.S do not have civilians working in Irak. Remember that the U.S. with complete disregard for the U.N declared unilateraly war on this country and ocupied it with its military. According to the POTUS there is currently in Irak a war on terror. You cannot have civilians in an ocupied country in the middle of a war. Those "civilians" should be considered under any circumstances as part of the ocupying force. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #43 October 13, 2004 I keep looking but I can't find Irak on my map. Where exactly is that? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #44 October 13, 2004 QuoteI keep looking but I can't find Irak on my map. Where exactly is that? heh..Tuna, for once, I gotta give you props on that...Ye gave me a smile on an otherwise shitty day...Thx. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #45 October 13, 2004 Sorry, i wrote Irak in spanish, but i really meant Iraq. For some reason i thought that you speak more than just your native language. I guess it is not the case. I can see it is truly confusing, you know, Iraq,Irak, even Iran, holy cow!!!! Did you spend much time looking on the map? I hope not. If you need help locating any of those countries on the map, by all means, pm me. Now, any comment on the issue at hand? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #46 October 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteRadical islamic extremists attacked our civilians, not our military, and that is the only valid reason on the table. The U.S do not have civilians working in Irak. Remember that the U.S. with complete disregard for the U.N declared unilateraly war on this country and ocupied it with its military. According to the POTUS there is currently in Irak a war on terror. You cannot have civilians in an ocupied country in the middle of a war. Those "civilians" should be considered under any circumstances as part of the ocupying force. Holy shnikeys!! I'm part of an occupying force here in Kosovo? Cool!! When do I get my weapon? Botelines... you REALLY need to learn the difference between combatants and non-combatants....Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #47 October 13, 2004 QuoteNo. If I did that, then I'd have decided that rape was a good enough reason for me to kill the rapist. So someone dropping a bomb on your house might make you want retailiate - doesnt sound so extremist to me. QuoteNo again... I think I am better than the militant islamic jihadis, that's why I want them wiped out... not my own people. Its that kind of arrogance that and generalism that is a good part of the problem. Chances are, if your life followed the path of the people you are referring to, with your mentality I would put money on you being an excellent islamic jihadi yourself. I am not suggesting that terrorism is a valid way to achieve an aim, but for people who have suffered horrifically... you cant expect them all to be reasoned individuals, what surprises me is how unreasonable some people are without the suffering.. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #48 October 13, 2004 Of course you should know this better than anybody else, since UK is an expert in subjugating and exploiting other countries worldwide."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #49 October 13, 2004 My point exactly.... tar everyone with the same brush!... I live in the UK... I must therefore be out of that jelly mould Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #50 October 13, 2004 QuoteHoly shnikeys!! I'm part of an occupying force here in Kosovo? Cool!! When do I get my weapon? Botelines... you REALLY need to learn the difference between combatants and non-combatants.... Yeah, he gets that definition from Shitster Dictionaries, or something like that. And by the way, he may need to figure out a way to either write in Spanish or English, and seriously avoid "Spanglish", but hell, that just might be me thinking out loud...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
