billvon 2,991 #51 October 13, 2004 >Numbnuts like you and Rhino . . . . No personal attacks. Your one warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
algboy 0 #52 October 13, 2004 Quote>Numbnuts like you and Rhino . . . . No personal attacks. Your one warning. Whatevah . . .See ya“Keep your elbow up!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #53 October 13, 2004 >As far as your other conspiracy theory about it being another Vietnam? Highly unlikely. From Seymour Hersh, the guy who broke the Abu Ghraib story: I got a call last week from a soldier -- it's different now, a lot of communication, 800 numbers. He's an American officer and he was in a unit halfway between Baghdad and the Syrian border. It's a place where we claim we've done great work at cleaning out the insurgency. He was a platoon commander. First lieutenant, ROTC guy. It was a call about this. He had been bivouacing outside of town with his platoon. It was near an agricultural area, and there was a granary around. And the guys that owned the granary, the Iraqis that owned the granary... It was an area that the insurgency had some control, but it was very quiet, it was not Fallujah. It was a town that was off the mainstream. Not much violence there. And his guys, the guys that owned the granary, had hired, my guess is from his language, I wasn't explicit -- we're talking not more than three dozen, thirty or so guards. Any kind of work people were dying to do. So Iraqis were guarding the granary. His troops were bivouaced, they were stationed there, they got to know everybody. They were a couple weeks together, they knew each other. So orders came down from the generals in Baghdad, we want to clear the village, like in Samarra. And as he told the story, another platoon from his company came and executed all the guards, as his people were screaming, stop. And he said they just shot them one by one. He went nuts, and his soldiers went nuts. And he's hysterical. He's totally hysterical. And he went to the captain. He was a lieutenant, he went to the company captain. And the company captain said, "No, you don't understand. That's a kill. We got thirty-six insurgents." You read those stories where the Americans, we take a city, we had a combat, a hundred and fifteen insurgents are killed. You read those stories. It's shades of Vietnam again, folks, body counts... You know what I told him? I said, fella, I said: you've complained to the captain. He knows you think they committed murder. Your troops know their fellow soldiers committed murder. Shut up. Just shut up. Get through your tour and just shut up. You're going to get a bullet in the back. You don't need that. And that's where we are with this war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #54 October 13, 2004 Thanks for that one man's opinion. We all have opinions. We could post the 6+ billion opinions of everyone on the planet but it really has no meaning...just like the one you posted from Hersh. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #55 October 13, 2004 Quoteso sad.... NOT!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6228150/ T.S. baby! Ya wanna be a terrorist shitbag who plays by no rules, then it's only fair when "no rules" governs your prisoner treatment. I won't shed any tear vapor, much less an actual tear, for anything that happens to an Al Qaeda member. That would be asking me to care about someone who would torture and kill me if he had the opportunity, and then claim that he did it for god. Fuck 'em all. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #56 October 13, 2004 QuoteThanks for that one man's opinion. We all have opinions. We could post the 6+ billion opinions of everyone on the planet but it really has no meaning...just like the one you posted from Hersh. Do you shoot down every opinion that doesn't go along with yours? With that attitude why do you bother to post on here?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #57 October 13, 2004 QuoteIt is incredibly sad and incredibly unacceptable. Each of those prisoners, no matter how despicable, should receive the same treatment that we want our prisoners in other countries to receive. We still point to Argentina's desaparecidos as an example of what a dictatorship does. Yes, it is up to us to do it first. If we want to be a beacon of freedom, then the light has to be able to shine everywhere. Wendy W. Yes, and the only reason that Al Qaeda members continue to routinely torture and maim and kill innocent people is because for some reason they have never been exposed to or become aware of the shining beacon of "it's wrong to do that shit" even though civilized nations have refrained from it for a long time now. I mean, come on... what is the argument here? That the only reason they kill and torture is because WE have to show them that you're not supposed to?! That somehow, word has never reached them that it's WRONG?! They KNOW it's wrong. Seeing their adversaries NOT torture is not something that will ever stop THEM from torturing -- it will just be an indication to them that their adversaries are WEAK. They make a deliberate CHOICE to torture. It's not for lack of someone setting an example that it's a bad choice. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #58 October 13, 2004 Quote"Can you see that some left leaning people are just quick to give these rugrats comfort when a rumor arises?" You talking about me? For the record, I'm not "left leaning", I'm well and truly left. Yes, that's right, go ahead and make light of the fact that he's pointing out that by and large, people on your side of the political spectrum do indeed appear to have no qualms about giving sympathy and comfort and concern for those who make themselves our enemies. A little nervous laughter like you offer in response goes a long way in telling us how you feel, and what you take seriously and what you don't. I guess you don't take very seriously the fact that others observe that you sympathize with the torturers and murderers of innocents. So it would seem, anyway. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #59 October 13, 2004 QuoteOf course not. You're a liberal and there's a republican president in the White House. I wouldn't expect you to think any other way. And you are a republican and will not see any wrong in a republican president even if it is obvious to everybody else. Next time a U.S contractor is beheaded whine and post about how mean they are. Sorry, you cannot have it both ways (don´t republicans accuse liberals of doing that?) dude, if you are all for torture and the violation of human rights, so be it. But don´t complain when they do it to you. You are not having it both ways Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,444 #60 October 13, 2004 QuoteI mean, come on... what is the argument here? That the only reason they kill and torture is because WE have to show them that you're not supposed to?! That somehow, word has never reached them that it's WRONG?! No. The argument is that we don't do it because it's wrong to do. We follow the rule of law because it's right. That's the sum total of it. In the end, your worth and honor are in part determined by what you do when you don't think anyone is looking. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #61 October 13, 2004 Quote I guess you don't take very seriously the fact that others observe that you sympathize with the torturers and murderers of innocents. So it would seem, anyway. No one reasonable enough would think that he is simpathizing with terrorists. I asure you that among other countries Israel, UK and Spain has dealt enough with terrorism for not taking it lightly. fortunately for you, you don´t have enough experience with terrorism to talk like that. You are confusing obeying the law and respecting the constitution with sympathizing with the terrorists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #62 October 13, 2004 QuoteThe argument is that we don't do it because it's wrong to do. We follow the rule of law because it's right. That's the sum total of it. We don't torture and violate the rights of prisoners? Hmmmmm, sure about that? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,444 #63 October 13, 2004 QuoteWe don't torture and violate the rights of prisoners? Hmmmmm, sure about that? Wanna provide details, or are you just going to post there smugly, feeling superior? Do you think it ennobles us? In the long run, it weakens us, because then the people the government is supposed to protect doesn't trust them either. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #64 October 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteUnless they are enemies of the state.. Which terrorists are... You can bet your fanny that we have hundreds of terrorists in custody that the red cross weenies will never know about. Terrorists are not human. They are not people. They do not have rights... They are a means of getting information we need. PERIOD... Even the Nazis gave the Red Cross access to their prison camps. But I'll bet not to the concentration camps, the death camps, or the places where people were used as living experiments, like, "How Much Salt Water Can a Human Drink?" "How Long Can a Human Live Submerged in Ice Water?" or "Can Dye Be Injected into the Eyes to Make Them Blue?" What exactly did the Red Cross do when it inspected Nazi prison camps? Give them the "Red Cross Prison Camp Seal of Approval"? "This prison camp is fair and humanitarian"? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #65 October 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteOf course not. You're a liberal and there's a republican president in the White House. I wouldn't expect you to think any other way. And you are a republican and will not see any wrong in a republican president even if it is obvious to everybody else. Next time a U.S contractor is beheaded whine and post about how mean they are. Sorry, you cannot have it both ways (don´t republicans accuse liberals of doing that?) dude, if you are all for torture and the violation of human rights, so be it. But don´t complain when they do it to you. You are not having it both ways Torture of innocents or torture of those known to be Al Quaeda terrorists? I see a difference. Why don't you? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #66 October 13, 2004 QuoteBe careful what you wish for - you may get it, and it may be done to you instead of to someone else. If we want our people treated well, we have to treat their people well. (Until we can show they're guilty, at which time we should shoot them.) Even when we "treat their people well," they kill our innocent non-combatants. Since we gain nothing from treating them well, I say we might as well get what information we can from the ones we capture. And if we're not willing to torture them (that actually doesn't sit well with me), then we should summarily execute them. No torture, just instant death. Who can argue with that? It is a war!... -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #67 October 13, 2004 QuoteTorture of innocents or torture of those known to be Al Quaeda terrorists? I see a difference. Why don't you? NEW YORK - At least 11 al-Qaida suspects have “disappeared” in U.S. custody, and some may have been tortured, Human Rights Watch said in a report issued Monday. I see the diference. Are you sure you see it too? Hint: look at the darker word Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #68 October 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe point is we're supposed to be better than them. I disagree. I respect your posts for you are one of the more intelligent and unbiased posters in these forums but you are wrong here. The point is to win. Win at all costs. Do whatever it takes to ensure freedom. If that means breaking laws, stepping on the rights and liberties of our citizens...then so be it. Just win. Dude, you're losing your support base here. Starting with me. And often times, I agree with you, but definitely not here. Yes, the point is to win. Do whatever it takes to your enemy to win, but NOT "breaking laws, stepping on the rights and liberties of our citizens." Hell, no. There's no point in fighting to save your citizens' lives, if those lives will be lived under a government that sacrificed their liberty so that they might live. You're definitely the one who's wrong, here. QuoteYou have no idea how many laws, rules and regulations are broken every day in the name of maintaining our freedom and independence by the military, NSA, CIA, FBI and the DIA. Wait. You just said "fuck the freedoms, fuck the rights" but now you're saying that we have no idea how many times the rights are trampled by the military, NSA, CIA, FBI and DIA in order to maintain those rights... -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #69 October 13, 2004 For some reason your 2 last posts contradicts themselves. edited to add that you flip flop faster than Kerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #70 October 13, 2004 QuoteNumbnuts like you and Rhino are why I rarely read--or respond--to these neo-fascist rants and I why I no longer believe that just because someone jumps out a plane for sport necessarily makes them my compadre. America is becoming a very scary place these days. I see brown shirts on the horizon . . . Funny you would gripe about our forces not obeying the "rules" of combat but you won't obey the rules against name-calling on the forum... Quote"They first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up- because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up- because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up- because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up- because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me- and by that time no one was left to speak up. -- Nazi Victim, Pastor Martin Niemoeller Ahh, someone admitting that he did NOT do the right thing at a time when he should have. Reminds me of Kerry admitting to Congress that he had gone along with torture, killing of innocents, burning of villages, cutting off ears, etc. and various war crimes in Vietnam. I guess when you come back and admit it, that makes it all better. Did Niemoeller feel better after he came clean about not helping those others when he could have, when the Nazis came to torture and kill them? Are you likening the allegedly tortured Al Qaeda terrorist network members to the communists, jews, unionists, catholics...? Really? These are the people we should speak up for, because if we don't, they won't be around when "They" come for us? Al Qaeda terrorists? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #71 October 13, 2004 QuoteFor some reason your 2 last posts contradicts themselves. edited to add that you flip flop faster than Kerry Glad you admit that Kerry flip-flops. Most liberals won't come within ten miles of admitting that. Corner them, and they'll tell you all about something bad that George W. Bush did. I don't think I contradicted myself. I don't have much of a problem with mistreating Al Qaeda members. I am not crazy about torture in general, though. I will not accept trampling American rights -- by American forces or agencies -- for the claimed purpose of winning on behalf of America. Those things are not contradictory. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #72 October 13, 2004 QuoteGlad you admit that Kerry flip-flops. Most liberals won't come within ten miles of admitting that. Corner them, and they'll tell you all about something bad that George W. Bush did. Of course Kerry flip flops. No one denies that. most democrats admit that kerry is bad but not as bad as Bush. Now, do you know any republican that admit any wrongdoing in Bush? Can you tell me in your opinion what (if any) Bush is doing wrong? QuoteI don't think I contradicted myself. I don't have much of a problem with mistreating Al Qaeda members. I am not crazy about torture in general, though. I will not accept trampling American rights -- by American forces or agencies -- for the claimed purpose of winning on behalf of America. Those things are not contradictory. -Jeffrey In your first post you say that it is okay with you to torture suspects of terrorism. Something that goes against U.S. constitution and the basic right of everybody is innocent until proven guilty. FLIP In your second post you say that you do not accept trampling american rights.FLOP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #73 October 13, 2004 QuoteOf course Kerry flip flops. No one denies that. most democrats admit that kerry is bad Excuse me? You haven't read 99% of the posts on these forums, huh? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #74 October 13, 2004 Yes i have, and it is only republicans who have a blind faith in their representatives. Most democrats admit Kerry will not make the best president ever, but he is much better than Bush. However Bush followers believe that Bush is doing things right. Prove me wrong. Can you say the important thing that Bush has done wrong in your opinion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #75 October 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteGlad you admit that Kerry flip-flops. Most liberals won't come within ten miles of admitting that. Corner them, and they'll tell you all about something bad that George W. Bush did. Of course Kerry flip flops. No one denies that. most democrats admit that kerry is bad but not as bad as Bush. Bush has been criticized -- by Kerry -- for NOT flip-flopping: for sticking with a bad plan even when it was shown to be bad. (his opinion, anyway). How has Bush been a worse flip-flopper? QuoteIn your first post you say that it is okay with you to torture suspects of terrorism. Something that goes against U.S. constitution and the basic right of everybody is innocent until proven guilty. FLIP In your second post you say that you do not accept trampling american rights.FLOP I'm not talking about torturing U.S. citizens. I'm talking about torturing foreign nationals, in a foreign land (or maybe if they've reached U.S. soil) who are suspected to be terrorists -- duh, WITH EVIDENCE! Strong evidence. I drop the bar on the burden of proof with things like this. If you get a guy who is known to be a terrorist and find "ooh, they didn't read him his rights," he doesn't go free, he's executed. That is not contradictory with saying I don't accept encroachment of liberty in the name of making us safer. I have NEVER said I support that. Opposing loss of liberty does not stand at odds with being unopposed to fucking up our enemies by whatever means necessary. All I said was -- and this is what I think you're stuck on -- is that I don't LIKE the idea of torturing our enemies, but I won't cry over it if it happens. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
