"ASBOs" -- Just how insane is life under Britain's laws?!

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

This story is very unsettling.
It's an insight into how insane things have become in England.

AntiSocial Behavior Orders are applied in bizarre ways

Okay, the big problem I have with these is that the British police are issuing these so-called "ASBOs" to "ban" people from doing various things -- without trial -- instead of sensibly just charging people with a crime. It seems like the ASBOs amount to probation, i.e. "Don't do this: you get a chance, but if you do it you go to jail." But I'm not sure exactly how it works.

Now, the article is not clear as to WHAT the repercussions of breaking an ASBO are... so I don't know if someone will go to jail if he or she breaks one's edicts.

Some of these things are really head-scratchers:

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In Essex, a 38-year-old woman was banned from abusing the emergency services, after she called 999 38 times in nine months. A court heard she pretended to be unconscious and swore at ambulance crews who went to treat her, forcing them to take a police escort.

So rather than charge her with a crime like, "Falsely reporting an incident" or something (we have that in the U.S.), they tell her she can't use the emergency service (which I assume is like our 911). So what if she ends up really needing it? Now, I realize that she was being a true nuisance, yes. But did she get a TRIAL before being ordered to not use the 999 service? Or is she punished without due process?

Here's another:

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And in Wirral, a man was banned from assaulting and verbally abusing bin men after they were so intimidated by his behaviour they stopped collecting rubbish from his street.

WTF?! "Banned from assaulting"?! Isn't EVERYONE "banned from assaulting"?! Why is there a special order, an "ASBO," needed to tell someone he may not do something for which the law already provides a basis for arresting, prosecuting and imprisoning him?!

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An Eminem and Dido fan who incessantly played the musicians' songs at top volume was banned last month from owning a stereo, radio, or TV. It was the first order of its kind.

The volume at which the 33-year-old Birmingham woman listened to the tunes was so great that furniture in neighbouring flats moved. The decibel level was equivalent to a train passing.

The woman, who previously had thousands of pounds worth of CDs and a karaoke machine confiscated, was also ordered to move home.

Brits are not free to own private property, nor use it as they see fit, apparently. Why does this case require an ASBO? Are there no noise ordinances available to be enforced, with their own penalty at law? How can the police order someone to LIVE in a certain place? How can they simply confiscate someone's stereo and musical recordings?! I guess it's easy when the people have no protection of their rights.

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Elsewhere in the Midlands it was not the volume of the music, but its offensive nature that saw an Asbo served on one middle-aged couple. After upsetting staff and parents at a nursery near their Worksop home they were banned from playing gangsta rap or swearing in front of children.

Too bad about that lack of a First Amendment over there. Singling people out to not have freedom of speech. Now that's novel.

But this one takes First Prize:

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The man was also banned from using doorbells or phoning households without permission. He had stolen from 250 elderly people after entering their homes by posing as a milkman, a policeman, or simply by asking for a glass of water.

Don't prosecute him for THEFT or FRAUD! Just tell him he can't ring doorbells!! I'm sure that fixes the problem of the guy being a thief! I wonder, if he goes up and just knocks on the door, if he can still get in trouble.

What the fuck is going on over there, people?! This is ludicrous! It seems, from my perspective here, that your system is trying its best to imitate the inane reasoning of something like "Alice In Wonderland"!! How can it be that rather than punish a guy for stealing from TWO HUNDRED FIFTY PEOPLE -- surely you still have laws against fraud and theft?! -- you instead tell him he is not allowed to approach houses?! Can't you see that still leaves him able to steal from people in other ways?!

How about a discussion of these ASBOs?

I'll kick it off: "ASBOs are yet another further indication that the British criminal justice system is utterly, absolutely inept, corrupt, and incompetent, and it has simply thrown up its hands and all-but-admitted, 'We just don't know what the fuck to do!' "

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mr2mk1g 10]

Troll.

[juanesky 0]

But PJ how can you say "insane", if you are talking about the bastion of civility in this world?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Troll.

Well, since my point, really, is that nothing valid can be said in defense of these preposterous ASBOs -- especially when they are issued for things that could easily be charged as criminal acts -- you're helping me out by saying nothing in reply to my request for a discussion.

Your government is essentially saying, "We've caught you at this crime; society says you can't do it; we could charge you; but we're going to let you go, subject you to a different set of laws from what the general public is subject to (i.e. not allowed to wear hats), and give you the opportunity to do your particular "crime" again before we try you for it, which we could do right here and now."

Imagine that a person went out and raped a few women, and it was found that he did so using nylon rope to tie them up. It seems, from this article, that your government would likely issue an ASBO prohibiting the guy from owning nylon rope. And they'd set him free and wait for him to break the ASBO, buy more nylon rope, rape another woman with it, and then maybe they'd ship his ass off to prison where it belongs.

Thanks for helping, through your reticence, to get my point established and proven.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mr2mk1g 10]

This isn't a discussion - it's a TROLL. TROLLS are not welcome on any forum.

I'm not going to be drawn by a TROLL: TROLLS are childish idiots who would be better off sitting in the corner and quietly masturbating rather than going on line so that everyone can laugh at them.

I'm not going to feed the TROLLS.

[nigel99 471]

firstly I believe ASBO's mostly result in a fixed penalty fine (mr2mk1g can probably clarify this).

I seriously doubt that the ASBO's are handed out arbitarily as the UK has very high burdens of proof. Personal experience we have an alcoholic neighbour who runs around naked (yuch 50 yr old woman), drives drunk (extremely drunk) and causes on average so many 999 calls that most of us are on first name terms with the emergency services - but still the burden of proof is not high enough...

It's ok though as we have "free" terrorists here in the UK courtesy of the US government torturing them and thereby prejudicing a free & fair trial - i'd rather see that problem cleaned up first

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[tkhayes 348]

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I'll kick it off: "ASBOs are yet another further indication that the British criminal justice system is utterly, absolutely inept, corrupt, and incompetent, and it has simply thrown up its hands and all-but-admitted, 'We just don't know what the fuck to do!' "

Actually it sounds like good old common sense rules to me - something my mother might do.

not the 'corruption' that you allege

Maybe we could use some of that common sense here. Making any new 'laws' just means that at some point, some 'law-yers' will tie up our courtrooms arguing about the legality of it all.

Personally I do not think that the courtrooms of this country need to be filled up with cases about loud stereos.

Stick you hand in the cookie jar and you get it rapped. No need to discuss the issue any further.

TK

[jakee 1,489]

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Imagine that a person went out and raped a few women, and it was found that he did so using nylon rope to tie them up. It seems, from this article, that your government would likely issue an ASBO prohibiting the guy from owning nylon rope. And they'd set him free and wait for him to break the ASBO, buy more nylon rope, rape another woman with it, and then maybe they'd ship his ass off to prison where it belongs.

Don't be silly

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

The only ASBO's I've heard of around the area I live are against young yobs (12,13yo) banning them from town centres at certain times. Seems like a good way to stop the fuckers from causing a nuisance.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Paulipod 0]

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In Essex, a 38-year-old woman was banned from abusing the emergency services, after she called 999 38 times in nine months. A court heard she pretended to be unconscious and swore at ambulance crews who went to treat her, forcing them to take a police escort.

So rather than charge her with a crime like, "Falsely reporting an incident" or something (we have that in the U.S.), they tell her she can't use the emergency service (which I assume is like our 911). So what if she ends up really needing it? Now, I realize that she was being a true nuisance, yes. But did she get a TRIAL before being ordered to not use the 999 service? Or is she punished without due process?

Read it again... she was banned from Abusing not using.

An ASBO is a way of controlling and identifying people that are an issue. If you had them... maybe you wouldnt have the gang culture you have grown.

As for your crusade against Britain, try looking closer to home... or, as your battle for independance is over - Get over it.

You have the freedom to mess up your own society, and based on the sum of your comments I think you are doing great job.

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[kelpdiver 2]

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Elsewhere in the Midlands it was not the volume of the music, but its offensive nature that saw an Asbo served on one middle-aged couple. After upsetting staff and parents at a nursery near their Worksop home they were banned from playing gangsta rap or swearing in front of children.

Too bad about that lack of a First Amendment over there. Singling people out to not have freedom of speech. Now that's novel.

This whole post is definitely trolling, but I can't miss this one given the ongoing battle of the FCC versus Howard Stern. Try going to a school playground and swearing at the kiddies and see what happens.

Some judges in the US do creative sentencing in leiu of simple jail time. Doesn't seem too different from these ASBO anecdotes.

How about picking on France for a while, PJ? The Brits here could use a break.

[crozby 0]

Well I agree with you - the examples you've quoted are fucking ridiculous.

ASBOs should be issued in situations where people are causing a nuisance to their neighbours, not when they are commiting a crime.

Hopefully the courts will be directed to stick to the original intent of ASBOs only.

[Paulipod 0]

I dont think the ASBOs are a replacement for conventional prosecution, rather an addition step to help prevention of an offence again...

Gangs are a good example, a group of youths that cuased trouble on one occasion would then be banned from congregating in groups.

Although the examples here can be looked at with synacism I dont think each ASBO is used to replace punishment.

For example the door bell one actually is sensible. Yes he should be and probably was prosecuted for theft... but its easier to secure a conviction if you see him at someone's door - when he shouldnt be... as maybe 20 doors may only result in one robbery attempt... and someone like that has no business randomly speaking to homeowners.

Other examples were - Kerb crawlers prevented from entering red light areas... etc

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[sfc 1]

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How about a discussion of these ASBOs?

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How about a discussion of why PJ is so anti-British?

I'll kick it off: "ASBOs are yet another further indication that the British criminal justice system is utterly, absolutely inept, corrupt, and incompetent, and it has simply thrown up its hands and all-but-admitted, 'We just don't know what the fuck to do!' "

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I'll kick it off: "PJ is upset at the British government for banning hand guns. Combined with his inability to twist statistics to pursuade the British users of Speakers Corner to rise up in revolt against their government, he is now using the tactic of throwing mud against every British institution he can find to help him justify that he is right about the guns."

-Jeffrey

[kallend 2,026]

I don't see them as much different from restraining orders issued by US courts. Some of these have been pretty bizarre, too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,026]

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Brits are not free to own private property, nor use it as they see fit, apparently. Why does this case require an ASBO? Are there no noise ordinances available to be enforced, with their own penalty at law? How can the police order someone to LIVE in a certain place? How can they simply confiscate someone's stereo and musical recordings?! I guess it's easy when the people have no protection of their rights.

Quote

Elsewhere in the Midlands it was not the volume of the music, but its offensive nature that saw an Asbo served on one middle-aged couple. After upsetting staff and parents at a nursery near their Worksop home they were banned from playing gangsta rap or swearing in front of children.

Too bad about that lack of a First Amendment over there. Singling people out to not have freedom of speech. Now that's novel.



-Jeffrey

WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

In 1948 the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). Article 19 affirms the right to free speech:

Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.(1)

Britain is a signatory to that convention.

Britain also has a Bill of Rights dating back to 1689, that looks amazingly like the US Bill of Rights of 100 years later.

We curtail volume of music in Chicago (and other US cities). The 1st Amendment does not give anyone in the USA the right to say absolutely anything in any place at any time.

You need to get out more.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

A lot of his posts are.

[kallend 2,026]

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WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

A lot of his posts are.

Maybe Bush should take note of the highlighted part of Article 19, since he's blocked access to his web site from overseas:

Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zep 0]

Imagine that a person went out and raped a few women, and it was found that he did so using nylon rope to tie them up. It seems, from this article, that your government would likely issue an ASBO prohibiting the guy from owning nylon rope. And they'd set him free and wait for him to break the ASBO, buy more nylon rope, rape another woman with it, and then maybe they'd ship his ass off to prison where it belongs.



Now your just being ludicrous, Whats your answer, just put every one who commits a misdemeanor in jail

Your just jelous cause the states did'nt think of it first

Gone fishing

[Trent 0]

I'm not sure what PJ's agenda is with Britain (you guys say he has one...) but some of the ASBO's listed are a bit silly and seem to infringe upon some basic rights.

ANYWAY, I think it's fuckin hilarious that some of you Brits are all fired up about someone ridiculing your country and have told him to mind his own business. I guess we can expect you to not participate in any further US-based threads then, for fear of becoming hypocrites... right? Thought so.

And as for article 19... so are you to tell me that I cannot run a website where I limit access to people that I want? Sounds like your reaching here.

Oh, hello again!

[juanesky 0]

Trent, don't forget to mention that it is actually the BBC the resource of these news. They prefer to call this a troll instead of explaining the actual issues.


Fuck the Queen!

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Zep 0]

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Fuck the Queen!

We can't it still holds the death penalty, Or has it now been changed to an ASBO

I'll get back to you on that one.

Gone fishing

[Botellines 0]

How respectful of you, dude. I am sure you want to be treated with the same consideration.

[christelsabine 1]

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Fuck the Queen

That is one fine statement

OTOH:
As you are no native North American citizen, you surely do not represent the average North American opinion. You only show your own personal uneducated low level.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jakee 1,489]

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ANYWAY, I think it's fuckin hilarious that some of you Brits are all fired up about someone ridiculing your country and have told him to mind his own business. I guess we can expect you to not participate in any further US-based threads then, for fear of becoming hypocrites... right? Thought so.

I can't speak for any other Brits on here but it's the sheer level of rage that PJ shows over our domestic issues that bemuses me, especially since he has stated several times that he will never visit our country. It used to be quite amusing but it's really starting to get boring now.
I've got no problem with people giving their views on our laws, it's quite interesting to see an outsiders point of view. When it comes to PJ, the guy's just rude.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?