Ideological Exclusion

[Kennedy 0]

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Gun owner prevented from voting while carrying weapon

By CAROL DRAEGER
Tribune Staff Writer

A gun shop owner said he was denied the right to vote Tuesday morning while carrying a gun on his hip.

Len Grummell, owner of Len’s Gun Shop in South Bend, said a Democratic poll worker at Fire Station 5, 2221 Prairie Ave., told him he had to remove his gun belt before entering the building.

Rather than argue, Grummell said, he complied with the request, but he believes the poll worker should be fined for breaking the law.

Grummell said state law is “silent” on the issue of whether gun owners who have permits to carry guns can do so at polling places.

Tom Botkin, a Republican member of the St. Joseph County Election Board, said there is no definite rule in state law that bans guns at polling places. He researched the issue last year when area police officers were denied the right to vote while carrying their firearms.

Police officers and firefighters in uniform may carry their firearms while voting, but Indiana law doesn’t addresss other gun carriers specifically, he said.

“I can’t believe he needs the protection of his gun to vote,” said Botkin.

Grummell was not denied the right to vote, Botkin said. “He was entitled to vote and he got to vote,” Botkin said, adding, “It was a modest thing for someone to do to ask him to take off his gun.”

Botkin said Grummell stirs controversy every election. “This is not a new issue with him. Every year he wants to carry his gun and every year there is a conflict.”

Grummell said he plans to take the issue to court.

“Before I even came in the door, she was on the phone with officials . . . preventing me from voting unless I put my gun in my car,” Grummell said about the Democratic poll worker who told him to remove his gun.

Grummell said the Republican workers at the poll said nothing to him; the woman and elections judge who refused to let him inside until he removed his gun were both Democrats.

Grummell’s wife, who voted 30 minutes later, was apparently allowed to vote, even though she was carrying a gun in her purse, according to her husband.

“She wasn’t even questioned but I was specifically targeted,” Grummell said. “The crux is that I was targeted because they know I carry a gun.”

So these people not only want voting places to be "victim disarmament zones," they even want off duty cops to be disarmed. So much for the "we've got nothing against law abiding gun owners" schtick.

When are these freaking people going to realize that if somebody wants to shoot up a polling place, they are not going to stop and ask permission.

A regular Joe who votes every year is not a threat. Why do they insist on treating him like one?

Why do they want to treat off duty cops like they are a threat?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kamih 0]

The reason for this is quite simple: Fear.
You never know who could be a terrorist these days!

[Kennedy 0]

Maybe we should run everyone through Guantanimo just to make sure they still pledge allegiance and salute the flag.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

What state is that in?

And are you really suprised?

[kamih 0]

Well since we have the Patriot Act, we are heading towards that direction.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Funny, a Republican member of the Election Board is saying that this is kind of silly and that this grummell guy is just looking for controversy and probably a great way to advertise his gun shop.......

If even a Republican is saying this guy is an idiot....I am sure you can fill in the rest of the sentence.......

[PhillyKev 0]

If even a Republican is saying this guy is an idiot....

...apparently even Republicans are susceptible to irrational fear and knee jerk reactionism.

(As if you didn't already know that)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If even a Republican is saying this guy is an idiot....

...apparently even Republicans are susceptible to irrational fear and knee jerk reactionism.

(As if you didn't already know that)

This guy is just drumming up free advertising for his business....and doing a mighty fine job of it too.

He'll sue, charge his expenses back to his own company and write it off as a business expense. IN the mean time getting thousands of dollars in free advertising, smiling at all the people taking up his cause......cause they're just giving him more free advertising.......

[Kennedy 0]

It's called sarcasm. Maybe I should have put in a smiley.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[skycop 0]

Forget making him drop his gun belt! I would have snatched him up for disorderly conduct.
There is no reason for him to be carrying a firearm openly into a polling place. If he is a CCDW holder then no problem, conceal it. Having an open firearm in a public place makes people very uncomfortable, even some good conservative ones.
This kind of crap makes gun owners look like a bunch of nuts. This guy was looking for a confrontation. This is a total waste of the courts time if he takes it that route.
With that said, I voted after I got off work at 0600, I was in uniform with my firearm.
I'm assuming this would make him feel "disinfrancised" (i have no idea how to spell that) if he found out.
No special rights for the cops right?
Let the flaming begin.........
Common sense should rule here, however when you are dealing with the fringe of any group of people, common sense goes out the wind and into the courts.
IMHO

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Kennedy 0]

I haven't seen anything saying he was wearing it open. It sounds to me like he was carrying concealed but they knew he would have it.

If I were him I would've just said I don't have one. That would've put the burden on them to prove I had one. Nothing gives polling place helpers the right to stop and search voters, last I checked. Then there would still be the question of whether or not they have the right to exclude a person for carrying.

Also, I don't think he was carrying it open because this story came out of Indiana. I'm fairly sure they don't allow open carry there.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[JohnRich 4]

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I would have snatched him up for disorderly conduct.
There is no reason for him to be carrying a firearm openly into a polling place... Common sense should rule here...

If it's not against the law, then they have no right prohibiting from doing it. He doesn't need a "reason" to do something that is within the law.

That's common sense.

Maybe they should prohibit bible-carrying in the polling place too. After all, no one needs a bible to vote. Check the goddamn things at the door!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If it's not against the law, then they have no right prohibiting from doing it. He doesn't need a "reason" to do something that is within the law.

That's common sense.

Maybe they should prohibit bible-carrying in the polling place too. After all, no one needs a bible to vote. Check the goddamn things at the door!

Wouldn't a polling location be considered private property? Not everybody is invited. Actions, behaviour and people are restricted in the location....sounds like private property to me.

[miked10270 0]

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I haven't seen anything saying he was wearing it open. It sounds to me like he was carrying concealed but they knew he would have it.

The story said he had to remove his gun belt. TO me that sounds like he went into the polling station like John Wayne in High Noon (Yeah... I know). What a prat!!!

It seem to me he was "grandstanding" and it wasn't the first time. Personally, I think that openly carrying a gun; i.e. one that can be seen and noticed WITHOUT any search is a deliberate breach of public peace.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Kennedy 0]

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Wouldn't a polling location be considered private property? Not everybody is invited. Actions, behaviour and people are restricted in the location....sounds like private property to me.

OK, I don't know how it works in Canada, but when we hold elections down here, it's hardly an exclusive event. Everyone is "invited" to show up and cast their vote. Everything that isn't against the law is, by definition, legal.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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The story said he had to remove his gun belt.

Anyone carrying concealed in a belt holster might find it easier to remove the entire belt than to take the holster off. Just because he took the entire belt off doesn't mean he was carrying in the open.

The story said he was stopped "because they knew he carried a gun," not because they saw him carrying a gun.

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TO me that sounds like he went into the polling station like John Wayne in High Noon

READ THE ENTIRE STORY!!!!

Off duty police officers were told they couldn't vote if they had their firearms. Are you going to say that every armed off-duty cop "showed up like John Wayne at High Noon?"

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I think that openly carrying a gun; i.e. one that can be seen and noticed WITHOUT any search is a deliberate breach of public peace.

And I'm glad that someone as ignorant of this issue as yourself is not the determining authority in legal matters concerning firearms.

And again, what makes you so damned sure he was carrying in the open?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch2.html#IC35-47-2-1

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Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.

Looks to me like it's illegal to carry without a permit. That means to me that he was carrying in accordance with the restrictions placed on permit holders by the state legislature.

That tells me he was fully within his legal rights to carry that firearm the way he was carrying it.

What right did some anti-gun poll worker have to tell him he's not allowed to vote while exercising his rights?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[skycop 0]

In the state where I live you can carry a firearm if it's not concealed.
Disorderly Conduct states:"causing undo alarm and annoyance to a reasonable person".
Carrying an open firearm into a polling place will cause that every time, especially an urban area.
I'm assuming two things, 1) He was carrying unconcealed. 2) Polling places in South Bend are mainly urban.
Examples: I was carrying concealed in a small town while walking in to 7/11 type store. My buddy had a Model 686 on his hip unconcealed. I freaked, I thought the people in the store would freak. My buddy said it's not unusual for these rural folks to carry guns around.-not causing alarm and annoyance

Two neighbors are fighting, they call the cops on each other. One goes inside, the other asks me, "is it legal for me to carry a gun unconcealed?" I have to tell him yes, technically.
Now this person comes out into his yard, with his gun in plain view of his neighbor and the rest of his neighborhood.- meets the standard of Disorderly Conduct.

A polling place is no place for a citizen to carry a firearm. Legal carry can be a relative term.

A bible can't fire a projectile at 1000 fps.

Sometimes the Second Amendment doesn't make you right.

I wouldn't argue this one dude, it's a loser.

The left thinks we gun owners are a bunch of gun toting freaks anyway, this just reinforces that.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[GravityGirl 0]

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...apparently even Republicans are susceptible to irrational fear and knee jerk reactionism.

Irrational fear is what won Georgie Boy the election..... 9-11.... turrurist.... America Safe.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Maybe they should prohibit bible-carrying in the polling place too. After all, no one needs a bible to vote. Check the goddamn things at the door! "

Some might argue that a Bible is potentially more dangerous than a sidearm.
But thats a different thread altogether.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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When are these freaking people going to realize that if somebody wants to shoot up a polling place, they are not going to stop and ask permission.

They are never going to realize it. That's exactly why they got their asses kicked in this election, and why in three presidential election cycles, they've been the minority in congress. It's exactly why they didn't ascend to the presidency, and why they lost seats in the house and the senate. They are willfully out of touch with how things work in the real world. Failure to make the realization you mentioned is proof that someone just can't think properly.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Forget making him drop his gun belt! I would have snatched him up for disorderly conduct.
There is no reason for him to be carrying a firearm openly into a polling place. If he is a CCDW holder then no problem, conceal it. Having an open firearm in a public place makes people very uncomfortable, even some good conservative ones.

I think you are overboard saying that the guy should be arrested for the crime of disorderly conduct. How can you criminalize behavior that is not illegal just because some people have an irrational fear of it?

If the irrational people get to set the measure of what is "disorderly" or "disruptive" or likely to instill fear, then we're all screwed.

Would you please explain the rationale for arresting a calm, peaceful, law-abiding person who is not engaged in intimidating behavior, just because he is legally carrying a firearm openly?

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This kind of crap makes gun owners look like a bunch of nuts.

This may be true, but the guy is still within his legal rights. I'm sure they thought that Rosa Parks must be a bit out of her mind, too.

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This guy was looking for a confrontation.

So was Rosa Parks. You know, the kind of confrontation that you sometimes have to force to happen in order to get attention paid to your struggle to have your rights recognized.

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With that said, I voted after I got off work at 0600, I was in uniform with my firearm.
I'm assuming this would make him feel "disinfrancised" (i have no idea how to spell that) if he found out.
No special rights for the cops right?

You're absolutely right.
I bet you like being a member of the privileged class that does not get told daily that they are not entitled to carry the means of their own defense.

You mentioned you would approve of him carrying concealed, but not open. How much you wanna bet that the woman who barred him from voting would object to him having a concealed gun, too?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Personally, I think that openly carrying a gun; i.e. one that can be seen and noticed WITHOUT any search is a deliberate breach of public peace.

Mike.

Even if the law, say, in a place like Virginia, expressly allows it?

There's no possible way you can justify calling legal behavior a breach of the public peace.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"There's no possible way you can justify calling legal behavior a breach of the public peace."

You can if you have things called Anti Social Behaviour Orders.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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In the state where I live you can carry a firearm if it's not concealed.
Disorderly Conduct states:"causing undo alarm and annoyance to a reasonable person".
Carrying an open firearm into a polling place will cause that every time, especially an urban area.

You would have to be able to establish that it is "reasonable" for a person to suspect criminal intent from a person who is going about normal, everyday activities, but who has a gun on his belt and is not brandishing it or acting in a deliberately intimidating manner. It is REASONABLE to expect a "reasonable person" to know that the law in his state allows people to carry firearms openly!

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Two neighbors are fighting, they call the cops on each other. One goes inside, the other asks me, "is it legal for me to carry a gun unconcealed?" I have to tell him yes, technically.
Now this person comes out into his yard, with his gun in plain view of his neighbor and the rest of his neighborhood.- meets the standard of Disorderly Conduct.

I think that's crap. I don't believe you.

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A polling place is no place for a citizen to carry a firearm.

Why is that? Because criminals or terrorists could never show up to do innocent people harm at a polling place?

What is this bizarro logical standard you seem to be employing to determine what is a "reasonable" place for a citizen to carry a firearm? What's to stop you from claiming the same thing about a library? A hospital? A supermarket? A movie theater?

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Legal carry can be a relative term.

Bullshit. Legal is whatever the law does not say is illegal. You're a cop? And you claim such a subjective purview over what laws to enforce?!

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"