pajarito 0 #76 November 4, 2004 QuoteI think that the only people who deserve mandatory birth control are those who have had their children removed from their care due to neglect, abuse, or other issues. They should not have the right under any circumstances to produce another human punching bag. Although I'm against what Tree said in regard to being poor + on welfare = mandatory birth control, I have to agree with you somewhat here. I still think the idea is dangerous, however, and could be misused. I think of the example of a drug addict who stays pregnant from prostitution in order to pay for her next fix. Nothing good can come from that and the baby will suffer. In addition, she’ll do it again unless she gets help. Even then, she’ll most likely go back to her old way of life. The State could just take the baby away if she's an unfit mother. However, if it's that obvious as to the outcome in the beginning, I think it might be justifiable to mandatory prevent the pregnancy. The same might be true in some abuse cases. I still see that as having the potential for misuse (i.e. taking kids away for spanking, calling it abuse, when it’s not, and requiring birth control). It would be someone’s judgment call. I just don’t like the sound of that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #77 November 4, 2004 QuoteIIRC, fascia are the bundles sticks beside the throne that represent the power to punish. Actually, if you look carefully, you'll see an axe inside those bundle of sticks. "The root of the word: fascist, is fasces. This is a symbol composed of a bundle of sticks and an axe. The United States Congress is graced with this symbol." More here http://scifiles.no-ip.com/FASCIST.htm tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #78 November 4, 2004 QuoteI got student loans Consider my use of my system as a student loan which I've paid back thru my productivity/taxes. QuoteThat's good, and to be honest, I'm not complaining about you receiving that help. I'm glad the system existed to help you. I just don't see where you get off drawing a line below where you need help to cut off others. Because alot of these "others" have no interest in helping themselves, no desire to do better and to contribute to society, to payback what they are allowed to use. They abuse it! The welfare programs are not supposed to be lifelong umbilical cords, its supposed to temporary, to help not hurt. They not only hurt themselves but they are hurting you and I, they're hurting our country. This is about those who take, take, take, take and never give back to the system I'll help them, I'll try hard to help them, but at some point you have to cut'em off. The baby bird must fly, The baby whale must rise to the surface fo its first breath and people must work, must help themselves at some point! ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #79 November 4, 2004 QuoteConsider my use of my system as a student loan which I've paid back thru my productivity/taxes. Ummmm, I paid mine back through cash...plus interest. QuoteI'll help them, I'll try hard to help them, but at some point you have to cut'em off. I disagree. I say you try harder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #80 November 4, 2004 Quote "The root of the word: fascist, is fasces. This is a symbol composed of a bundle of sticks and an axe. The United States Congress is graced with this symbol." Excuse me? I'm fairly well versed in the symbology of the US. Could someone please show me this, because it's obviously something I've missed.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #81 November 4, 2004 QuoteConsider my use of my system as a student loan which I've paid back thru my productivity/taxes. QuoteUmmmm, I paid mine back through cash...plus interest. Yeah....me too. Still paying my wife's off. THAT's... gonna take a while! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base311 0 #82 November 4, 2004 From http://clerk.house.gov/histHigh/Virtual_Tours/Splendid_Hall/artifacts.html The Mace The Mace of the U.S. House of Representatives is one of the oldest and most important symbols of our nation's government. In one of its first resolutions, the U.S. House of Representatives of the 1st Federal Congress (April 14, 1789) established the Office of the Sergeant at Arms. The first Speaker of the House, Frederick Muhlenburg of Pennsylvania, approved the Mace as the proper symbol of the Sergeant at Arms in carrying out the duties of this office. The design of the Mace is derived from an ancient battle weapon and the Roman fasces. The ceremonial Mace is 46 inches high and consists of 13 ebony rods – representing the original 13 states of the Union – bound together by silver bands. Atop this shaft is a silver globe on which sits an intricately cast solid silver eagle. -------- gardner edited to add: emphasis (mine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #83 November 4, 2004 QuoteI ask again, why should I have to pay for your education and unemployment? You don't. You pay into an insurance system. Your logic is like saying why should I pay for your car wreck, just because you pay auto insurance. There are very specific requirements for recieving Unemploymend, and it's a limited duration benifit.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #84 November 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteIIRC, fascia are the bundles sticks beside the throne that represent the power to punish. Actually, if you look carefully, you'll see an axe inside those bundle of sticks. "The root of the word: fascist, is fasces. This is a symbol composed of a bundle of sticks and an axe. The United States Congress is graced with this symbol." More here http://scifiles.no-ip.com/FASCIST.htm t Thanks, I was looking for something U.S. Government and official that contained the symbol, but couldn't come up with it. I was pretty sure it was around somewhere. The U.S. Government has rather a dog's breakfast of symbology amongst its various official seals, documents and whatnot, so it's not surprising that fasces are in mix. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #85 November 4, 2004 QuoteYou don't. You pay into an insurance system. Your logic is like saying why should I pay for your car wreck, just because you pay auto insurance. If I choose to drive and have insurance, true. I don't get a choice about paying into unemployment. QuoteThere are very specific requirements for recieving Unemploymend, and it's a limited duration benifit. Same goes for AFDC. Some of you just seem to think the requirements are ok when they benefit you, but not ok when someone else qualifies instead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #86 November 4, 2004 QuoteMore outstanding posts by both Winsor and Rebecca. Much grass, senor! Me gusta el complimento! So, I see this discussion has drifted a bit away from financial responsibility towards scenarios involving justifiable sterilization and Latin. As long as we're going that route, OK, I do think anyone convicted of severe (equivalent of first degree) child abuse should be sterilized, regardless of who's paying for the child. Not spanking, not yelling, not even smacking a kid around - I'm talking locked-up-in-a-closet abuse. One strike and you're an it. As for welfare/unemployment - that should be drawn either as a supplement or as a temporary measure, NOT as a way of life, and not as a reward for working the system. We've got this awesome program here in Houston (probably other places as well), where a person can go for food, betterment classes, professional attire, networking and job opportunities, and other services. The catch? They have to work for it - volunteer at the center, work in the community vegetable gardens that were donated by generous individuals, and actively search for employment. I donated pretty heavily to that program through United Way. Are there that many cases where a person in need reaches out and can't find help? I don't know too many folks unwilling to help a person down on their luck if they're really doing everything they can to turn things around. My point is: are there that many people out there who have no other option besides welfare and welfare only for years on end? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #87 November 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteMy mother has never worked a day of my life. She has collected welfare and/or social security for the last 35 years. I got my first job at age 14 and have never collected welfare. I did get two unemployment checks last year during a 1-month lag between jobs, but the combined total of those checks was less than I pay in taxes each month. Am I an anomaly that should have been prevented through mandatory birth control? Am I a "welfare sucking human being" or "too dumb or too lazy to pay for [my] own way"? Should I have been given a mandatory vasectomy during that month of unemployment? To answer your questions: No. But if your mother was able to work and simply decided not to then I would be unhappy that the government was forcing me to pay tax to fund her chosen lifestyle. I am unhappy that I am subsidizing people who make such choices as well. But tree was trying to make the case that the offspring of such people become chronic welfare cases themselves. I'm a living, working rebuttal to such an assertion. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #88 November 5, 2004 I'd bet that for the children of those who abuse the system you fall into a minority. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #89 November 5, 2004 Preface: I didn't read every post in this thread but here's my take. While there is no way I think that BC should ever be mandatory, I do think it should be MUCH more widely available. The current trend is just the opposite thanks to the Extreme Evangelical Right. There are many barriers to getting relaible BC since this is seen as promoting promiscuity. IMO we should have free BC available to anyone that wants it. It should be a chioce, but the chioce should be there. No parental permission requirement, no co-pay if you can't afford it. This should be coupled with comprehensive education and awareness. Given this, the problem will subside without forcing anyone into it. Given the chioce, the vast majority of people will choose to delay and limit their reproduction of their own accord. BTW: this would also DRAMATICALLY reduce the demand for abortions, a good thing all around.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #90 November 5, 2004 Quote Fortunately, the solution is simple. If you are supported by the government through welfare, man or women, you must be Norplanted, or whatever other BC can be used to guarantee you can't reproduce. I'd vote for it. You don't have the right to steal my money to pay for your offspring. Many people feel that indignant children are entitled to charity. The only way to reconcile those points is to disallow breeding among people who choose to pay for their broods through public charity. People can breed all they want at the expense of a lower standard of living they support or can convince other people to supporrt voluntarily. If they want they can also voluntarily give up the right to reproduce in exchange for the financial benefit. It's no different from people who choose to live in communities with HOAs giving up their right to paint their house purple. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #91 November 5, 2004 Quote[Procreation is most definitely a basic human right. The view that they don’t is a very scary concept to me. Public assistance isn't. They can choose to reproduce without limits, or voluntarily trade government money for restrictions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #92 November 5, 2004 Quote Here's my question: Is welfare a right? Should it be a no-strings attached monthly check, increasing every time another mouth comes to the table? Rights are things inherent in our natural state of being that don't conflict with others' rights. For example we can say what we want, but other people don't have to listen. Money to buy consumer goods is not an inherent aspect of our existance. Tax funded welfare is theft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #93 November 5, 2004 QuoteQuote I hear it's actually becoming a status symbol to be able to afford four or more kids and still send them all to exclusive private schools and expensive colleges. Lemme tell ya . . . it's people like that I'd like to see sterilized. Using children as a status symbol is . . . just sick. These aren't puppies, they're human beings. There's a bit of insight. "People that can afford the children they choose to have should be sterilized." Or worse, people that can afford to give those children a good/great upbringing are bad. It must be so much worse than having extra babies just for more government freebies. The status symbol read to me as being able to work to afford nice things for your family - not the unfair reach of purposely just having a brood for the sake of status. That is admirable, not sick. An unreasonable stereotype is wrong even when that stereotype is a trendy one such as hating the 'rich'. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #94 November 5, 2004 Quote$1000 per mnth x 12 x 4 = $48000 Food/shelter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you giving them a cardboard box and cat food? I live on about $850/month food, shelter, utilities. When I lived in Philly as a student, I lived on $500 a month for the same thing. I would kill to have $1000 month to pay those basic bills. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
