wmw999 2,534 #26 November 5, 2004 Quotethe ~82% of Americans who hold to Judeo-Christian values believe that their lives aren't "truly" their own. We are stewards of the lives we’ve been given. Christians believe that their lives ultimately belong to God Speak for yourself. This Christian church-going American disagrees with the extension you mave made on that. We have tools; why would God not want us to use them to ease pain and suffering? Job's suffering in the Bible is not the only definition of nobility. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #27 November 5, 2004 QuoteI have a cousin that thanks to domestic abuse is paralized from the neck down, is on a ventilator running at between 8-15% and will never have the ability to speak again thanks to the damage done. She is on such a cocktail of meds to fight the infections that she keeps getting, others to control blood pressure, others to control brain stem swelling and other things that shes asked if anything gets worse for someone to help her find a way to end the fight. Her 6 year old son and her 3 year old daughter are not old enough to do anything. They know that their mommy will never be able to talk to them, hug them or leave her hospital bed again. Even the best estimates right now are giving her only 18-24 months due to the neck and brain damage. As shes going right now her insurance carriers have dropped her as soon as her husband was arrested, the family is having to pick up all the cost of the medical care, and no nursing homes will take someone thats on a vent that high. Choices for my family right now is having her parents sell everything to keep her in the hospitial for the next 2 years while the most she can do is mouth words and follow you around the room with her one good eye and place the kids in care of other relatives. She's mentioned that the burden on her and the family is too high and if everyone agrees she has no hope she wants to end being the burden. She was religious before the abuse and even continutes to be... My Grandmother had a huge influence in every aspect of my life. Later in life, she developed Alzheimer’s disease. My Dad and his two sisters refused to put her in a nursing home and decided to take care of her themselves during her last years. It got to the point where she couldn’t hardly move at all, couldn’t speak, didn’t know what she was looking at, and we had to continually wipe the drool from the corner of her mouth. Every once in a long while, however, she’d have what we thought were moments of clarity where she’d tell us she loved us or would just get a very big smile on her face when a loved one would walk in the room. Those moments were worth every ounce of effort on our parts. You couldn’t put a price on that. It was a very long and gruesome ordeal. It took years. She was an extremely classy lady earlier in life and the shape that she was in would have disgusted her. She would have most certainly wanted to finish the race, though. When I was a child, she’d improve my reading skills by making me read passages from the Bible. Granted, I didn’t become a Christian until age 29 but the long term influence is what I’m trying to emphasize. She had that effect on many people. I’m sure she affected many in her debilitated state as in her healthy one. Much would have been lost if she’d punched out early on her own accord. There is a purpose in everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #28 November 5, 2004 QuoteQuotethe ~82% of Americans who hold to Judeo-Christian values believe that their lives aren't "truly" their own. We are stewards of the lives we’ve been given. Christians believe that their lives ultimately belong to God Speak for yourself. This Christian church-going American disagrees with the extension you mave made on that. We have tools; why would God not want us to use them to ease pain and suffering? Job's suffering in the Bible is not the only definition of nobility. Wendy W. Can you find Biblical basis for either euthenasia or suicide? Not that it didn't happen in Biblical times but does God condone it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #29 November 5, 2004 Props to her for fighting it out. What if someone doesn't -want- to fight it out? Because part of society believes I don't own my life, because it says so in a religious book, I can't kill myself?This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #30 November 5, 2004 QuoteShe would have most certainly wanted to finish the race, though. That's kinda the point.... what if she hadn't? How would you have coped with that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #31 November 5, 2004 QuoteI do believe life is sacred, but I'm very active, there's a lot of things I like to do and want to do.... if I was unable to do said things, I would see no purpose of living anymore. Selfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #32 November 5, 2004 QuoteProps to her for fighting it out. What if someone doesn't -want- to fight it out? Listen to your words. "Someone doesn't want" Selfish QuoteBecause part of society believes I don't own my life, because it says so in a religious book, I can't kill myself? You can kill yourself. It doesn't have to be condoned by the State, however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,534 #33 November 5, 2004 There are many things that we do that aren't in the Bible. In-vitro fertilization, chemotherapy with the potential of killing, mass communications. Most of the situations where we're considering euthanasia are ones that did not exist in the time of the Bible, because people died long before they even got to that state. Going to the Bible to find specific mention of things you find uncomfortable is a cop-out, especially when the world has so many more forms of technology. The guidelines for people treating each other, and respecting their God, don't change -- people are still people. And Christ said that of faith, hope, and love, love is the greatest. He said a lot of other things too; most of them having to do with loving and respecting each other, and loving and respecting God. Yes, there's anger -- part of the story is that Christ was human as well as God. God was vengeful; Christ came to change that. And vengeance and judgement are God's job, not ours. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #34 November 5, 2004 One of my greatest fears is being unable to end my own life if I so chose because of unbearable pain, paralyzation etc. I cannot imagine a worse fate than suffering for years as a conscious person but being unable to interact with the world. If someone decides they no longer want to live but are unable to take steps to that effect, I believe strongly that there should be a legal option for them to take. Our most basic right is that of life, but it is our life, and our ultimately our decision if it should end.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #35 November 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteShe would have most certainly wanted to finish the race, though. That's kinda the point.... what if she hadn't? How would you have coped with that? It would be a monumental shame because I'm living proof of her influence. I know for a fact that others were affected also. Much would have been lost concerning me. I realize that's "selfish" of me but I'm held to the same standard. You never know what or who you affect by what you do, don't do, or can't do. Everything has a purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #36 November 5, 2004 QuoteListen to your words. "Someone doesn't want" Selfish Take family out of the picture. They're a hobo or an orphan and have no friends. Who else are they living through it for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ripple 0 #37 November 5, 2004 Seems to me that it'd be pretty selfish of those around me to not allow me to die.Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #38 November 5, 2004 QuoteYou can kill yourself. It doesn't have to be condoned by the State, however. Why does everything either have to be condoned or condemn? What about not taking a position and leaving it up to people to decide themselves? I don't see how not criminalizing or otherwise preventing something can be equated to condoning it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #39 November 5, 2004 QuoteThere are many things that we do that aren't in the Bible. In-vitro fertilization, chemotherapy with the potential of killing, mass communications. Most of the situations where we're considering euthanasia are ones that did not exist in the time of the Bible, because people died long before they even got to that state. Going to the Bible to find specific mention of things you find uncomfortable is a cop-out, especially when the world has so many more forms of technology. The guidelines for people treating each other, and respecting their God, don't change -- people are still people. And Christ said that of faith, hope, and love, love is the greatest. He said a lot of other things too; most of them having to do with loving and respecting each other, and loving and respecting God. Yes, there's anger -- part of the story is that Christ was human as well as God. God was vengeful; Christ came to change that. And vengeance and judgement are God's job, not ours. Wendy W. You’re diluting the conversation. Killing has always been around and the right or wrong of it is addressed in the Bible. You’re also picking and choosing from the faith what fits you personally. As with your (Christian?) acceptance of homosexuality. The Bible is very clear on that matter, yet you choose to ignore those parts and revert back to why don’t we all just “love one another?” That’s great and I agree but it doesn’t answer the specifics. It’s more complicated than that. Anything “real” usually is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #40 November 5, 2004 Guess it depends on the subject whether some people want a nanny state or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #41 November 5, 2004 QuoteTake family out of the picture. They're a hobo or an orphan and have no friends. Who else are they living through it for? It's hard for me to imagine anyone who lives in a bubble and doesn't affect "someone" else in some form or fashion. But in your imaginary hypothetical situation, I'd say God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #42 November 5, 2004 QuoteSeems to me that it'd be pretty selfish of those around me to not allow me to die. I agree. It would be selfish of me to not want my Grandmother to die in the manner of euthanasia or suicide. It would be selfish on a completely different and higher level, however, for her to deny her loved ones of her presence. The same would go for me if I was to contemplate killing myself and denying myself “for better or for worse” to my wife and kids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #43 November 5, 2004 QuoteI'd say... God. Thought you might... problem is... this hobo doesn't belive he exists. Who are you to tell him he does and that he must abide by his laws when as far as the hobo is concerned - those laws are a figment of your imagination. How many rules of other religions have you broken? Are you to be bound by the rules of a religion to which you don't subscribe? Should you be held in eternal damnation because you don't face East to pray? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,534 #44 November 5, 2004 If you're going to go with a number like 82% adhering to values that don't include euthanasia, then you have to include people like me in it. I think everyone picks and chooses from the Bible. Do you wear linen and wool together? Do you eat shellfish? Killing is in the Bible. And its right and wrong has been debated -- "Thou shalt not kill." Of course, we can't include soldiers in that. Or people defending themselves. Or police officers. Or the executioner at a state-sanctioned execution. Could the judge and jury that impose a sentence of death be considered to be killing? The Bible doesn't address any of these directly -- we infer from it based on what we already do, on what our parents and/or religious leaders taught on, and on our inner natures. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ripple 0 #45 November 5, 2004 'Higher' level? Please elaborate. Just for the record, I believe that noone would choose to die unless they really, really wanted to. Its not a decision that anyone, imo, would take lightly. If someone has gone that far down the line of no longer wanting to be alive, then one can only subject them to suffering and pain by denying their wish to die. I don't believe that [insert deity of choice here] would want that.Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #46 November 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'd say... God. Thought you might... problem is... this hobo doesn't belive he exists. “God doesn’t believe in Atheists.” Eventually, everyone believes in God. Even if it’s after you’ve breathed your last breath. QuoteWho are you to tell him he does and that he must abide by his laws when as far as the hobo is concerned - those laws are a figment of your imagination. How many rules of other religions have you broken? Are you to be bound by the rules of a religion to which you don't subscribe? Should you be held in eternal damnation because you don't face East to pray? Again, majority rules. Christians are in the majority and shape laws. I guess the Hobo just has to fall under that umbrella. He could kill himself but that doesn’t mean that it’s lawful. When Atheists are in the majority, I guess things will change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #47 November 5, 2004 Pajarito, I used to think like you. Then I was discussing this topic with one of my NCO's, and he said one sentence that made me change my mind: "You know, eltee, I could do some things to you that would have you begging me to kill you within five minutes." Of course, he was right, and there are people out there who just want the pain to end. Is that cowardice, or pragmatism? In the words of Sun-Tzu, "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #48 November 5, 2004 I'm just wondering about the definition between suicide and euthanasia....to me it's very clear, but it doesn't seem to be for others. Can someone pipe up and give me their definitions? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #49 November 5, 2004 QuoteOh, that's right, you (not you personally, but the general public) have a moral obligation to save my soul. See that's sarcasm. The Morally Obligated don't get sarcasm.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #50 November 5, 2004 QuoteKilling is in the Bible. And its right and wrong has been debated -- "Thou shalt not kill." Of course, we can't include soldiers in that. Or people defending themselves. Or police officers. Or the executioner at a state-sanctioned execution. Could the judge and jury that impose a sentence of death be considered to be killing? The Bible doesn't address any of these directly -- we infer from it based on what we already do, on what our parents and/or religious leaders taught on, and on our inner natures. That's because the literal translation of "kill" from Greek is "murder." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 2 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
pajarito 0 #32 November 5, 2004 QuoteProps to her for fighting it out. What if someone doesn't -want- to fight it out? Listen to your words. "Someone doesn't want" Selfish QuoteBecause part of society believes I don't own my life, because it says so in a religious book, I can't kill myself? You can kill yourself. It doesn't have to be condoned by the State, however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #33 November 5, 2004 There are many things that we do that aren't in the Bible. In-vitro fertilization, chemotherapy with the potential of killing, mass communications. Most of the situations where we're considering euthanasia are ones that did not exist in the time of the Bible, because people died long before they even got to that state. Going to the Bible to find specific mention of things you find uncomfortable is a cop-out, especially when the world has so many more forms of technology. The guidelines for people treating each other, and respecting their God, don't change -- people are still people. And Christ said that of faith, hope, and love, love is the greatest. He said a lot of other things too; most of them having to do with loving and respecting each other, and loving and respecting God. Yes, there's anger -- part of the story is that Christ was human as well as God. God was vengeful; Christ came to change that. And vengeance and judgement are God's job, not ours. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #34 November 5, 2004 One of my greatest fears is being unable to end my own life if I so chose because of unbearable pain, paralyzation etc. I cannot imagine a worse fate than suffering for years as a conscious person but being unable to interact with the world. If someone decides they no longer want to live but are unable to take steps to that effect, I believe strongly that there should be a legal option for them to take. Our most basic right is that of life, but it is our life, and our ultimately our decision if it should end.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #35 November 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteShe would have most certainly wanted to finish the race, though. That's kinda the point.... what if she hadn't? How would you have coped with that? It would be a monumental shame because I'm living proof of her influence. I know for a fact that others were affected also. Much would have been lost concerning me. I realize that's "selfish" of me but I'm held to the same standard. You never know what or who you affect by what you do, don't do, or can't do. Everything has a purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #36 November 5, 2004 QuoteListen to your words. "Someone doesn't want" Selfish Take family out of the picture. They're a hobo or an orphan and have no friends. Who else are they living through it for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #37 November 5, 2004 Seems to me that it'd be pretty selfish of those around me to not allow me to die.Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #38 November 5, 2004 QuoteYou can kill yourself. It doesn't have to be condoned by the State, however. Why does everything either have to be condoned or condemn? What about not taking a position and leaving it up to people to decide themselves? I don't see how not criminalizing or otherwise preventing something can be equated to condoning it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #39 November 5, 2004 QuoteThere are many things that we do that aren't in the Bible. In-vitro fertilization, chemotherapy with the potential of killing, mass communications. Most of the situations where we're considering euthanasia are ones that did not exist in the time of the Bible, because people died long before they even got to that state. Going to the Bible to find specific mention of things you find uncomfortable is a cop-out, especially when the world has so many more forms of technology. The guidelines for people treating each other, and respecting their God, don't change -- people are still people. And Christ said that of faith, hope, and love, love is the greatest. He said a lot of other things too; most of them having to do with loving and respecting each other, and loving and respecting God. Yes, there's anger -- part of the story is that Christ was human as well as God. God was vengeful; Christ came to change that. And vengeance and judgement are God's job, not ours. Wendy W. You’re diluting the conversation. Killing has always been around and the right or wrong of it is addressed in the Bible. You’re also picking and choosing from the faith what fits you personally. As with your (Christian?) acceptance of homosexuality. The Bible is very clear on that matter, yet you choose to ignore those parts and revert back to why don’t we all just “love one another?” That’s great and I agree but it doesn’t answer the specifics. It’s more complicated than that. Anything “real” usually is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #40 November 5, 2004 Guess it depends on the subject whether some people want a nanny state or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #41 November 5, 2004 QuoteTake family out of the picture. They're a hobo or an orphan and have no friends. Who else are they living through it for? It's hard for me to imagine anyone who lives in a bubble and doesn't affect "someone" else in some form or fashion. But in your imaginary hypothetical situation, I'd say God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #42 November 5, 2004 QuoteSeems to me that it'd be pretty selfish of those around me to not allow me to die. I agree. It would be selfish of me to not want my Grandmother to die in the manner of euthanasia or suicide. It would be selfish on a completely different and higher level, however, for her to deny her loved ones of her presence. The same would go for me if I was to contemplate killing myself and denying myself “for better or for worse” to my wife and kids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #43 November 5, 2004 QuoteI'd say... God. Thought you might... problem is... this hobo doesn't belive he exists. Who are you to tell him he does and that he must abide by his laws when as far as the hobo is concerned - those laws are a figment of your imagination. How many rules of other religions have you broken? Are you to be bound by the rules of a religion to which you don't subscribe? Should you be held in eternal damnation because you don't face East to pray? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #44 November 5, 2004 If you're going to go with a number like 82% adhering to values that don't include euthanasia, then you have to include people like me in it. I think everyone picks and chooses from the Bible. Do you wear linen and wool together? Do you eat shellfish? Killing is in the Bible. And its right and wrong has been debated -- "Thou shalt not kill." Of course, we can't include soldiers in that. Or people defending themselves. Or police officers. Or the executioner at a state-sanctioned execution. Could the judge and jury that impose a sentence of death be considered to be killing? The Bible doesn't address any of these directly -- we infer from it based on what we already do, on what our parents and/or religious leaders taught on, and on our inner natures. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #45 November 5, 2004 'Higher' level? Please elaborate. Just for the record, I believe that noone would choose to die unless they really, really wanted to. Its not a decision that anyone, imo, would take lightly. If someone has gone that far down the line of no longer wanting to be alive, then one can only subject them to suffering and pain by denying their wish to die. I don't believe that [insert deity of choice here] would want that.Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #46 November 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'd say... God. Thought you might... problem is... this hobo doesn't belive he exists. “God doesn’t believe in Atheists.” Eventually, everyone believes in God. Even if it’s after you’ve breathed your last breath. QuoteWho are you to tell him he does and that he must abide by his laws when as far as the hobo is concerned - those laws are a figment of your imagination. How many rules of other religions have you broken? Are you to be bound by the rules of a religion to which you don't subscribe? Should you be held in eternal damnation because you don't face East to pray? Again, majority rules. Christians are in the majority and shape laws. I guess the Hobo just has to fall under that umbrella. He could kill himself but that doesn’t mean that it’s lawful. When Atheists are in the majority, I guess things will change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #47 November 5, 2004 Pajarito, I used to think like you. Then I was discussing this topic with one of my NCO's, and he said one sentence that made me change my mind: "You know, eltee, I could do some things to you that would have you begging me to kill you within five minutes." Of course, he was right, and there are people out there who just want the pain to end. Is that cowardice, or pragmatism? In the words of Sun-Tzu, "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #48 November 5, 2004 I'm just wondering about the definition between suicide and euthanasia....to me it's very clear, but it doesn't seem to be for others. Can someone pipe up and give me their definitions? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #49 November 5, 2004 QuoteOh, that's right, you (not you personally, but the general public) have a moral obligation to save my soul. See that's sarcasm. The Morally Obligated don't get sarcasm.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #50 November 5, 2004 QuoteKilling is in the Bible. And its right and wrong has been debated -- "Thou shalt not kill." Of course, we can't include soldiers in that. Or people defending themselves. Or police officers. Or the executioner at a state-sanctioned execution. Could the judge and jury that impose a sentence of death be considered to be killing? The Bible doesn't address any of these directly -- we infer from it based on what we already do, on what our parents and/or religious leaders taught on, and on our inner natures. That's because the literal translation of "kill" from Greek is "murder." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
