Thoughts on Euthanasia

[lawrocket 3]

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Why must you insist on pushing your religion on people?

He's not pushing his religion any more than you are pushing your secularism. His basis of beliefs come from a different source than yours. That's all.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[pajarito 0]

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Trouble is that's not the rules of the country in which you live. You have a constitutional separation of the church and the state. You can't simply say - it's illegal to commit suicide because it's an affront to God - that's against the law of the country in which you live. The constitution guarantees individuals won't be told what religious beliefs they must follow.

Either amend the constitution to allow your leader to force his God onto everyone or accept that you're not allowed to do so.

1st Amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

The words separation, church, or state aren’t found anywhere in the 1st Amendment. A law prohibiting euthanasia in no way “respects the establishment of a religion” and neither does it prohibit anyone from worshiping how or if they want. The 1st Amendment was not written to remove God from politics. It was written so people could worship how they pleased and wouldn’t be forced to worship in one particular state sponsored way. In essence, it was written so that God should not be taken out of politics. There’s a difference.

[pajarito 0]

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I've watched several people lose that battle, then watched as their hearts continued to beat for months. I don't think it makes any sense to force people to "live" as empty husks - and we should respect their wishes as to what to do with them while they are still capable of making decisions.

I’m assuming that you’re talking about a person whose brain dead and on life support. There’s no consciousness and, therefore, no will to live. That’s different from a person who makes a conscious choice to end their own life or the life of another. My Granddad died of complications due to congestive heart failure. In the end, he was put on life support. He was pronounced brain dead. We were told that he was gone and that it was only the machines operating his organs. We made the decision to cease life support and the rest of his body died. Again, that’s a different situation altogether.

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Of course it is. So is skydiving, and art, and exercise. Doesn't make any of those things bad. So is smoking and drinking; doesn't make those things good. We do selfish things because we are the stewards of our bodies, and we make decisions that affect it.

Allowing smoking but not suicide makes no sense at all. Why is it OK to decide to die a horribly painful, slow death but not OK to decide to end it sooner?

Is this where you start going off on a tangent and start making silly comparisons kind of like when you were saying in justification of abortion that it was the same as babies that are unintentionally killed in wartime?

[unformed 0]

Really, so where do you draw the line? If I can't kill myself because it's selfish, why should I be allowed to drink or smoke? Those are harmful to my body as well.

At what point does my selfishness not allow me to do something? What if I don't have any family or friends that might be harmed by my death?

Oh wait, I forgot. I have to stay alive for God, who is there even though I don't believe in him, because at some point I will believe in him, right? I think I got this figured out now.

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[pajarito 0]

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Ok, more extreme. Still not sure how its more extreme.

As far as the point you're making, why on earth would making someone stay alive, in distress (for whatever reason) be what 'God' or anyone else wants?

Everything happens for a reason. There is a purpose. We are not here by accident. There is design to it all. You may have no idea what effect you have on others based on what’s happened to you. It shouldn’t be “all about us” and should be “all about others.”

[PhillyKev 0]

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Why must you insist on pushing your religion on people?

He's not pushing his religion any more than you are pushing your secularism. His basis of beliefs come from a different source than yours. That's all.

I don't buy that argument when talking about a personal decision such as euthenasia. By promoting a secular view of allowing people to make up their own minds, you're not making them do anything. By pushing a religious view that a decision should be taken away from people, you are.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Personally, I think if a person wants to end it, then let them end it. I would much rather it be OK for a person to simply report to a place and get a painless lethal injection than to have to clean up the mess they make when they finally decide to eat a gun. If a person has had enough, then who the hell are we to force them to stay around longer and remain miserable? Seriously. This, assuming they had no complicated binding agreements they were trying to escape. I absolutely believe that anyone sentenced to a life-long prison term (or one which would effectively end their useful years) ought to be given the option to simply check out as well. I know for a fact that I would choose to end it immediately if I were ever convicted of such a sentence.

Likewise, I would have no problem whatsoever letting a widow or widower end it at will. If they have lived their life and just lost their soulmate, then why force them to live on if they would rather not? Same for a person seriously disfigured in an accident (or by birth defect) who simply does not want to live. You feel like forcing them to live a life of welfare and ridicule (in their minds anyway) when they simply want to die?

Call me callous if you like, but I have seen a lot of death, pain and suffering in my life and this is something that I think about on occasion. I am a total realist in this regard.

[pajarito 0]

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To who? Her? Or you? If its worth it for you, THAT'S selfish.

I believe I mentioned that.

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She was an extremely classy lady earlier in life and the shape that she was in would have disgusted her.

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Uh-huh. But your "god" prevented you from acting on that, did it?

Well……yes.
That and the law.

[pajarito 0]

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Eventually, everyone believes in God. Even if it's after you've breathed your last breath.

You're living in a fantasy.

Making you think though, aren't I?

[wmw999 2,534]

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It was written so people could worship how they pleased and wouldn’t be forced to worship in one particular state sponsored way. In essence, it was written so that God should not be taken out of politics. There’s a difference.

I don't have any real issue with the first of those statements. The second one is way different, because you appear to be assuming that the worship of God in some way is mandatory.

It's not mandatory -- that is part of the core of the constitution, unless you assume that "any" means "any particular, as long as there's a". Especially when some sects then decree that you're not "really" worshipping God if you don't do it their way (e.g. your use of quotation marks around the word Christian).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pajarito 0]

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I gave up "religion" in the 4th grade when I saw how hypocritical it all was. The "club" and "exclusion aspects made me sick.

I gave up "god" shortly there after, or at least the popular western concept of it. If I have any belief at all it would be closer inline with eastern/buddists theology.

What does the “country club” or “domineering or suppressive” atmosphere of “some” churches got to do with the foundational messages of Christianity? What does the misuse of the religion or the vile things that some people in religion do have to do with God’s message and why you should or should not believe it? You’re missing seeing the forest for the trees.

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Christians are in the majority and shape laws.

Uh-huh. Don't let the Jews hear that. Statements like that verge on bigotry.

Why is it bigoted to say that Christians make up the majority in this country? So do Caucasians. Does that make me a racist?

[PhillyKev 0]

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Why is it bigoted to say that Christians make up the majority in this country? So do Caucasians. Does that make me a racist?

No, but if you wanted to pass laws like, you can't treat sickel cell anemia in hospitals because it doesn't apply to your race, then yes. I don't see much difference between that and passing laws that apply to your religion.

[Ripple 0]

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Everything happens for a reason. There is a purpose. We are not here by accident. There is design to it all. You may have no idea what effect you have on others based on what’s happened to you. It shouldn’t be “all about us” and should be “all about others.”

Ok, firstly, the whole about everything happening for a reason. That's your opinion, and I respect you for holding to your view, and I don't have the same one. I'd love you to give me an example of a reason.

Although I agree that none of us can know the whole effect our lives have on other people, I believe that that is not a good enough reason to keep someone alive that wants to die. I, personally, believe that any positive effect someone could have is outweighed by the negative one they are receiving by being kept alive.

The last statement 'its all about us' feels good, it feels right from where I'm coming from, and it doesn't go against my view that someone who wants to die should be allowed to do so.

I know that I'd have to care very little for someone to keep them alive against their wishes.

Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes

[livendive 8]

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Can you find Biblical basis for either euthenasia or suicide? Not that it didn't happen in Biblical times but does God condone it?

Similarly, is there a solid argument against euthanasia or suicide that isn't religious in nature?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[PhillyKev 0]

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Christians believe that their lives ultimately belong to God.

Trying to figure out how you would rationalize the death penalty with this belief. If ultimately, lives of criminals belong to God, why is it ok to decide it's ok to take their lives against their will? And don't start giving me scripture about punishing the wicked or whatever. This goes to fundamentals. If you believe that man does not have the right to terminate their own life because it belongs to God, then why do they have the right to terminate another life?

[pajarito 0]

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>Can you find Biblical basis for either euthenasia or suicide?

Moses asks god to kill him:

"I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me.
And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, out of hand, if I have found favour in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness."

Judges: Sampson kills himself (and many others) and is a hero because of it.

Judges: Abimelech asks one of his troops to kill him so no one would know he had been injured by a woman; he is killed.

Judges: Saul commits suicide.

2 Samuel 17:23: "And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father."

Matthew: Judas kills himself.

But all that is sorta beside the point. Can you find a biblical basis for emancipation of the slaves, or blood transfusions, or allowing interracial marriages? The bible was written in a time when man could not artificially prolong life for remarkable amounts of time; it cannot hope to cover modern medical ethical decisions (although it does provide a basis for it.)

Biblical basis for God’s justification of it. I even said myself earlier that it happened in Biblical times.

I can’t find evidences of toothbrushes in the Bible either, Bill. Don’t go off on a tangent again. Death and dying is mentioned and dealt with in the Bible. Just because methods have changed in our technological development over the years doesn’t change the end result.

[pajarito 0]

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The same bible is also very clear on eating shell fish, and cutting your beard.

The “civil” laws of the Nation of Israel at that time are not necessarily in unison with the moral law of God (i.e. it’s not necessarily what God commanded).

The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (i.e. The 10 Commandments) remains in effect. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultery, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation.

[Casurf1978 0]

Most of the people that are against euthanasia haven't the slighest idea of what a terminally ill patient goes through mentally and physically. I don't think they can imagine the type of pain experienced when morphine or demarol don't work. Not to mention the emotional impact it has on the surviving memebers. With issues like this religion should be set aside and the well being of the individual and family should take precedence over the religious beliefs of society. Then again I dont think religious views should be shoved down everyones throat. Now if the individual wants to wither away, well thats within their choice.

[pajarito 0]

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Why must you insist on pushing your religion on people? Not all of us buy into your morals, your beliefs and certainly not the bible. Personally I think suicide/euthanasia should be considered as a last resort. But if someone wants to snuff themselves out because life as they know it is has become too painful to endure, let them do it. It's their life, not yours or your God's.

What Lawrocket said.

[unformed 0]

Alright, I really don't see where you're coming from. On one hand, you're saying God says you can kill yourself, life is sacred, etc, etc, etc. On the other hand you're stating that God justified euthanasia/suicide in the Bible. So, which is it?

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[pajarito 0]

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I think I got this figured out now.

I'm glad I've brought you to some understanding.

[unformed 0]

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I think I got this figured out now.

I'm glad I've brought you to some understanding.

I was being sarcastic.

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[pajarito 0]

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I don't have any real issue with the first of those statements. The second one is way different, because you appear to be assuming that the worship of God in some way is mandatory.

It's not mandatory -- that is part of the core of the constitution, unless you assume that "any" means "any particular, as long as there's a". Especially when some sects then decree that you're not "really" worshipping God if you don't do it their way (e.g. your use of quotation marks around the word Christian).

I never said or meant to imply that it was mandatory. However, this country was founded by persons who believed in God and wanted to worship how they pleased. The Constitution is going to reflect that. It doesn’t prevent a person to not worship or believe in God if that’s what he/she chooses. It protects people’s right to worship or not worship however they want. My point in all that was to establish that God wasn’t meant to be “taken out” of politics by the 1st Amendment.

[pajarito 0]

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Why is it bigoted to say that Christians make up the majority in this country? So do Caucasians. Does that make me a racist?

No, but if you wanted to pass laws like, you can't treat sickel cell anemia in hospitals because it doesn't apply to your race, then yes. I don't see much difference between that and passing laws that apply to your religion.

I do because the first mentioned is blatantly racist and the motive is to do harm to a particular race. Whether you agree with euthanasia or not, the prohibition of it is for the betterment or moral wellbeing of everyone. I’m sure you disagree with this. I’m just saying that it is a bad comparison.

[lawrocket 3]

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Similarly, is there a solid argument against euthanasia or suicide that isn't religious in nature?

Yes. Not that I buy it, but it's a good argument.

There's a general policy that frowns upon the taking of a human life. That policy is that American citizens should live, and that nobody should be causing their deaths, short of some legal exceptions.

It's not illegal to commit suicide that I am aware of. However, the Muder is usually shown by proving:
1) An intent to kill
2) An act of killing
3) That causes in death.

Looking at Kevorkian, he meant to kill, then did an act that causes death. Murder. Simple. Policy is against killing people.

Much like people say, "Why treat attempted murder differently from murder?" Because, we don't want attempted murderers going back to finish people off, since the sentence will be the same.

I personally believe an exception needs to be carved out for euthanasia, but that's only my opinion.

My wife is hotter than your wife.