"This is the true face of Islam" - Holland

[AdD 1]

I think there is some confusion about the actual meaning of the "lesser" jihad. It is not at all about conquest, though like many religous doctrines it has been exploited to serve political agendas from time to time. Tomaz Maztnak (french scholar) insists "jihad cannot be properly defined as a holy war .. it is a doctrine of spiritual effort of which military action is only one possible manifestation;the crusade and the jihad are, strictly speaking, not comparable". Islam does sanction rebellion against an unjust ruler, whether Muslim or not, but it is not based at all on conquest. The koran says that taking an innocent life is the same as killing all of humanity. I strongly disagree with your interpretations of this religion. Don't forget that there are over 1.2 Billion Muslims worldwide, only 250 million of which are Arabs (I don't mean to imply anything about Arabs by this statement). The use of violence by some Muslims should not be taken as the norm for this religion.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[TomAiello 26]

Have you studied the origins and initial spread of Islam?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pajarito 0]

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Have you studied the origins and initial spread of Islam?

Not much. Probably not nearly as much as you. When I was in Afghanistan, I read a book on the fundamentals of Islam to gain a better understanding of their perspective. It spoke a little of its history. I admit I'm not an expert on Islam.

[jdhill 0]

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It's silly to say that "if we make an exception, we are recognizing them."

By deciding who qualifies for an exemption, and who does not the government recognizing them... religion is not taxed, income and property are... the Constitution does not prohibit taxation of religious groups, it prohibits recognizing them, which in turn prohibits excluding them from taxation.

By treating religious groups differently from any other business or property owner the government is recognizing it... when it denies tax exempt status to a a group calling itself a religion, it is giving status to ones that have had exemptions allowed.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[billvon 3,070]

>the Constitution does not prohibit taxation of religious groups, it prohibits
>recognizing them, which in turn prohibits excluding them from taxation.

No, anyone is free in the government to recognize any religion they want. Our president can say "may the loving hand of Jesus keep you safe, and may the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword be loosed upon our enemies" if he wants. All the constitution says is that we cannot pass any LAWS concerning any religions. That means we can't regulate, tax, supress, promote, or require anything that has to do with religion. That's all.

[jdhill 0]

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That means we can't regulate, tax, supress, promote, or require anything that has to do with religion. That's all.

It means the government cannot supress or promote... taxation is not supression, and the granting of exemptions (because they have to be granted) could be seen as promotion...

A group has to apply for tax exempt status, the application has to be reviewed. To turn one down, that is based on being a religion, would be supression. To approve one is giving the group recognition as a religion.

The tax code is a LAW... The Constitution allows for taxation, not taxation of everyone except religions, because there is no way for the government to identify one. To single a group out, either for taxation, or exemption thereof, is to recognize it...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[billvon 3,070]

>taxation is not supression. . .

Correct. Taxation is imposed, by law, on certain things to pay for government expenses. The first amendment says we cannot pass laws concerning any religions; that includes taxation laws.

Taxes don't 'just happen.' They are a a result of laws that were written and passed by government; generally the federal government. When passing those laws they must obey the constitution.

>A group has to apply for tax exempt status, the application has to be
> reviewed. To turn one down, that is based on being a religion, would be
> supression. To approve one is giving the group recognition as a religion.

No. The assumption that taxation is natural, and no taxation is an anomaly, is a false assumption. You are not taxed unless the government specifically taxes you, through a law passed by that government. If there is a constitutional provision that says the government cannot pass laws that pertain to you, you cannot be taxed.

[jdhill 0]

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

To me that says the government will not establish a religion, or recognize a religion, or prevent the people from worshiping as they please... I don't see anything about taxation... Bill, you are missing my point... Our government does not recognize, officially, any religon... therfore when it levies taxes it cannot exclude this group that has no legal standing whatsoever... Further, as a non-entity, religious groups should have no perferental treatment when itr comes to property ownership, i.e. not having to pay property taxes as all other property owners do.

The SCOTUS has danced around, but never really ruled on the taxation issue, except that no tax may support religious activities or institutions... not visa versa...

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Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State'
Reynolds v. United States, 1878

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[mnealtx 0]

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>There is nothing...let me repeat that, NOTHING, in the amendment that
>prohibits the display of religious symbols in any place.

Correct. However, it is abundantly clear that the government cannot pass any law to fund such a symbol. Here in San Diego, there is a big cross on Mt. Soledad. It's on public land, and there's no problem with that. There IS a problem with laws passed to fund maintenance of it; such laws are in direct violation of the first amendment. Our government may not pass laws that respect ANY religion, and that means they can't support any religion legally, financially or politically. Now, individuals can use their own money however they want, and if private citizens want to maintain that cross, then no problem. But people cannot be compelled to pay for it by the government.

Of course, this is a two way street. If you're OK with the cross, you have to be OK with a big gay-pride being flown outside a courthouse, if one of the judges buys it and puts it up.

Show your cite, please... I see nothing in the first amendment that prohibits that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Our government may not pass laws that respect ANY religion, and that means they can't support any religion legally, financially or politically

Given that premise, there should be no tax exempt status for religious groups, and no tax deductions for contributions to faith based groups...

J

That's because they still cannot understand what the first amendment actually SAYS.... they're still looking for nuance when there's none there.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Our government may not pass laws that respect ANY religion, and that means they can't support any religion legally, financially or politically.

Which law is this, please?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skydiverton 0]

As a response to the killing of Theo some guys burnt down an islamic school over here (holland) Might be interesting where this ends.

There is a lot of hate in certain groops in holland because of all the immigratnt allowed to come in and profit from out social-security.

Please do not take this as a personal opinion. It's just a remark.

Personally I do not have any problems with other people or their opinion (religion) as long as they do not try to force their way of living to me.
I can choose the way I want to live.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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As a response to the killing of Theo some guys burnt down an islamic school over here (holland) Might be interesting where this ends.

There is a lot of hate in certain groops in holland because of all the immigratnt allowed to come in and profit from out social-security.

Please do not take this as a personal opinion. It's just a remark.

Personally I do not have any problems with other people or their opinion (religion) as long as they do not try to force their way of living to me.
I can choose the way I want to live.

Looks like the cops are having a hell of a time this morning in Laak kwartier. This whole situation could turn pretty ugly, very fast. Holland has turned extreme right before and probably will do the same when the right person stands up. That is even scarier.

Some people have already compared this incident to Kristalnacht (Crystal Night) in 1938.........

[skydiverton 0]

Not sure what is going on there. It seems they found a terrorist safe-house. Not only the police is over there but also anti-terror units.
A no fly zone over the area and even rumors about moving in heavy equipment (armoured vehicles).

By the way the Kristalnacht was in germany. You know the big country next to the netherlands.

The kristalnacht has been revered to because some people set fire to an islamic school. The situation in The Hague seems to be terrorists.

I will keep you informed about this whole shit.

Luckely I can afford to live in a more quiet neighbourhood.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[storm1977 0]

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Islam is not a terrorist religion, nor a violent one. There are just a lot more of them out there that Christians, and therefore a lot more nut-bars too.

There are almost twice as many Christians in the world as there are Muslims.

2 to 1????

Not really http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[pajarito 0]

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There are almost twice as many Christians in the world as there are Muslims.

I’m not backing this for authenticity, however, here’s some statistics.

Religions of the World

Religious adherents as a percentage of world population in 2000.

Christianity: 2,015 million, 33%, dropping
Islam: 1,215 million, 20%, growing

Edited to add: Sorry Storm1977. I didn't even scroll down far enough to see your posted link. I posted the same thing. My bad.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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By the way the Kristalnacht was in germany. You know the big country next to the netherlands

Ik weet precies waar Duitsland ligt. Laak Kwartier is dicht by huis voor my. Heb oooit nog eens op de haagsche hogeschool gezeten. Hetzelfde gebouw as waar de evacuees nu liggen te slapen.....

[billvon 3,070]

>Show your cite, please... I see nothing in the first amendment that prohibits that.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establisment of religion. (I trust you don't need the link to that one.) That means they can't pass laws that promote, supress, fund, penalize or place requirements upon specific religions.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Show your cite, please... I see nothing in the first amendment that prohibits that.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establisment of religion. (I trust you don't need the link to that one.) That means they can't pass laws that promote, supress, fund, penalize or place requirements upon specific religions.

Thanks for proving my point - please show where the amendment mentions the other actions you describe.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[slug 1]

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Quote

There are almost twice as many Christians in the world as there are Muslims.

I’m not backing this for authenticity, however, here’s some statistics.

Religions of the World

Religious adherents as a percentage of world population in 2000.

Christianity: 2,015 million, 33%, dropping
Islam: 1,215 million, 20%, growing

Sorry Paj

Got to agree with you again. The link for the stats is what it is. But assuming the numbers are correct there is a different way to interpete the numbers depending what point a person wants to make.

Worldwide:Christianity: 2,015 million, 33%, dropping

Non christians 67% and rising.

Why argue about numbers, religions, etc, There are nut cases, pissed off people after 3-4 gerations of hate for whatever reason, etc.

How about giving peace a chance stop the killing and dying, devote once things settle down devote our resources to something more productive.

Health care
Housing
Hunger
etc.

But this is speakers circle so around and around we go and end up exactly where we started.

In speakers corner your facing a wall ever try and walk thru a wall or talk to a wall?

Carry on

R.I.P.

• Quote

[skydiverton 0]

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Quote

By the way the Kristalnacht was in germany. You know the big country next to the netherlands

Ik weet precies waar Duitsland ligt. Laak Kwartier is dicht by huis voor my. Heb oooit nog eens op de haagsche hogeschool gezeten. Hetzelfde gebouw as waar de evacuees nu liggen te slapen.....

Ok, they arrested 2 guys yesterday evening without much violance (a little shooting) The armoured vehicles were not there at all (journalist story).
The military has spend the whole night looking for explosives in the house.
Inrelation to this action 5 people have been arrested in another city.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[bobsled92 0]

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Right you are - 2 billion Christians, 1.3 billion Muslims, was going from my head and not the stats -

does not negate my original arguement. They have nut-jobs, we have nut-jobs. Islam is still not a violent religion by nature.

Is Jihad Christian?

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[tkhayes 348]

no more than "Crusade" is...

[Faber 0]

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almost all wars and violance in the world can be related to the islamic terrorists.

huh??

ww1 ww2 Iraqe were that islamic terroists starting thouse wars???
as far as i know it were christians...(germans ,germans and US plus a a few others)

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we have been (europe) to soft for this idiots. We should have addopted the swiss imigrant politics long time ago. But holland will strike back!

and THAT will be the end of freedome in Holland

Why is it that Western countryes dont understand that Muslims just want to live thir life as they have chousen,no muslim is going to tell me how to live my life unless i move to his country..its exact the same way the other way arround.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Tonto 1]

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just like the Buddist movement has no central leader.

Umm.. I'm thinking Dali Lama?

t

It's the year of the Pig.