peacefuljeffrey 0 #51 November 10, 2004 Quote Tell you what... I havent carried a kinfe around with me EVER, and I get by just fine opening my packages and eating food. So I'll be alright -- I just have to pattern my life after yours. Is that it? Quote Quote I make knot-craft as a hobby, and I do it all over, wherever I happen to be I am not even gonna start on why your one-step-off-knitting hobby is a problem Likewise if my hobby was role-play should I be allowed to walk the streets with an axe? Maybe when I go for a night on the town? Say YES to that and it says it all. Your example is really quite asinine. Knot-tying as a craft and hobby is a far cry from walking the... Oh, why the fuck am I bothering. You are clearly not going to get it. Quote Really, if you are trying to make any sense with your arguments here, you are failing miserably And comparing (after deriding) knot-tying as a hobby to carrying an axe in a role play is such a rampant success! Quote That is because - if I could snap my fingers and remove all weapons from the world - I would. It takes me but a moment's thought to realize that this dream of yours would leave the sick, the weak, the small at the mercy of the large and the strong. How long will it take you? It's a sick world you're wishing for; really no better than the one we're suffering with now. I guess it's okay with you if those born weak or small are cursed with being forever tormented and lorded-over by those lucky enough to have been born to be strong. Quote Whereas with a similar click you would see everyone wearing an ouzi and grenade belt. Please link me to a thread in which I espoused the public having and using grenades. And it's "Uzi." Are you proud to not know how to spell the name of perhaps the most famous gun in the world? Is it a badge of honor to prove your detachment from those "detestable guns"? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #52 November 10, 2004 Quote If you are intending to carry a knife as a tool, the Spyderco (albeit a good blade) comes a poor second (in usefulness terms) to Leatherman or Swiss Army type models. If the carry is for self defence, well, as with our numerous gun debates, the Government is not about to admit that it can't protect the people. So thats not going to fly either. I do have a Leatherman Wave in my knapsack. While it has more functions than a single-bladed Spyderco knife, it weighs easily thrice what my typical Spyderco weighs, and is therefore less convenient and comfortable to carry on a daily, long-term basis. Your second point about the government being unwilling to admit it can't protect the people is NO DEFENSE for YOU agreeing that the people should be voluntarily defenseless on a personal level despite the government's failure. Why do you offer that fact up, anyway? It just proves MY point. In this discussion, I am not asking the government for a defense of its laws, I'm debating you about them. If you acknowledge that the government prohibits weapons only to avoid admitting that it cannot protect its citizens on a personal level -- there is no shame in that, by the way, so the government should stop refusing to do it -- then you must be for the citizens having weapons. Either that, or at the same time as you acknowledge the government's inability, you want the people to be unable or disallowed from handling the job for themselves. That would be psychotic, wouldn't it? "We can't help you; but you must remain defenseless on your own." -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #53 November 10, 2004 Quote No - see my first post in this topic. I don't see the need for Scotland to change their laws. I think they're fine as they are. I don't think there's any need to ban the ownership of edged weapons in general. It's legal to own them at home but not to carry them around with you. Would you brits please get your fucking story straight?! Didn't someone else in this thread just say that it's LEGAL to carry non-locking, <3" blades on one's person?! WHICH IS IT?! Quote I like those laws. They're logical, they don't inhibit law abiding people terribly but they provide police the necessary powers to punish those who do carry large knives with them on the street. What is the necessity of "punishing those who carry large knives"? Does carrying a large knife of-and-by-itself cause harm to others?! Look at what I could theoretically do with a five-gallon can of gasoline and a Zippo lighter! Should the police have the ability to "punish me" because they see me in possession of these things? Or is it better to give the people the right to do things as long as they are not committing MALUM IN SE? Quote If there is no legitimate use for the knife then you can't have it. Why would someone complain about that? If you have a legitimate need for the knife the rule doesn't effect you and if you don't have a legitimate need for the knife then ipso facto - you don't need the knife so why carry it. I don't see any need to change those laws. You are being disingenous here, because you and I both know that it would be pathetically easy for the police to challenge and discard your claim of why you had a legitimate need for the knife. If I were walking down the street in britain with my Mini-Griptilian (2.75" blade, locking, part-serrated), which I use all the time in crafts I make with cord, are you telling me that the police wouldn't be able to pick me up for not having a "need" for the knife at that moment in time? You're disingenuously implying that it would be easy to prove this need, when I know that you yourself would not likely grant the "need" I would claim. My assertion is that due to the general usefulness of knives, a reasonably sized knife that locks open for its user's safety should never be prohibited in public. Quote Well not me. If Bush won, Bush won - thems the rules. Not only did he win but he got the popular vote too - simple as that. America the country wants Bush to lead them. I'm fine with that... I might have some concerns about what that means for the US and the world in general but if the US wants him who am I to argue with that? Well, you should hear the absolute hysterics coming from the left in this country. Quote Likewise if the UK wants to ban carrying large knives in public who are you to argue with that? Who am I to argue with it? I'm a non-criminal who makes a general habit of being equipped with cord, flame, and blade on a regular basis, and I object to being subjected to prior restraint and forbidden from carrying an everyday commercially available pocket knife under the guise of protecting the public. I object to the fact that if I were to visit England and go about my business as usual, I would be viewed as a criminal. Doesn't it bother you that people in your country are forbidden from possessing and/or using commonplace, everyday items that people in other parts of the world are free to have and use? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #54 November 10, 2004 Quote Doesn't it bother you that people in your country are forbidden from possessing and/or using commonplace, everyday items that people in other parts of the world are free to have and use? No. If those items are Knives / Guns or other deadly items.... that I dont need other than to escalate violence in a confrontation. You didnt respond before... so I'll ask again. Your sword carrying church attacker... do you think he should be allowed to carry his sword up until the point he firsts uses it? Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #55 November 10, 2004 6 vs half a dozen on the leatherman thing, point being there are more useful tools around than a single blade lock knife, ounce for ounce. The Victorinox Swiss Card for example has 13 'tools' and weighs 20 grammes, and you wouldn't get arrested for carrying it around.The government are of the same opinion I have, there is no requirement to carry weapons to defend myself, as there simply isn't that big a risk of me being the victim of an armed assault, and me needing a weapon under those circumstances. Thats it in a nutshell. Banning longer blades that can not be explained away as tools, or for example ceremonial or sporting purposes is, in my mind, reasonable. Its not a recent thing either, its been this way for years. If you were carrying a blade and got into a fistfight, and ended up in custody because of it you would be in big trouble, whether you used the knife in the fight or not. Its been that way for years. I don't know what everyone is howling about. I mean, its not as if we have just elected a half wit and an industrial megalomaniac for another 4 years of office, now that's criminal.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #56 November 10, 2004 Quote If I were walking down the street in britain with my Mini-Griptilian (2.75" blade, locking, part-serrated), which I use all the time in crafts I make with cord, are you telling me that the police wouldn't be able to pick me up for not having a "need" for the knife at that moment in time? (emphasis my own) Yes, I am telling you that - any knife with a non-locking blade less than 3" is specifically excluded from the act and as such it is perfectly legal to carry it. You would only be arrested if you used it on someone and even then they would not charge you for the possession of it, only the use. The legislation is not intended to prevent knives from getting onto the street - it is not some magical metal detector sat on everyone's front door through which they must pass. We know legislation will never actually stop someone breaking the law – this isn’t Harry Potter land. The legislation is there to give police the powers to arrest people who are a threat to society. If you have a large knife you are carrying an item that a) you don’t need and b) you could use to injure someone. Sure you might not want to use it to injure someone but if you don’t need it why on earth does it matter to you if you’re not allowed to carry it? If you want a knife use a 3" one. Why would the average person need a knife bigger than that? Seriously? Sure tradesmen, people with a specific task to carry out, someone transporting one from A-B - they might need to have it on them… but they're ALLOWED to have them under our legislation - no problem. What if you don't have a reason for having it? Well as a corollary you don't need it – that’s kind of inherent in the fact that you have no reason for having one. As such you can make do with a 3" knife – there’s not that much of a difference. If all knives were legally carried then we would have to wait for the bad guys to use the knife before we could take it off them. Someone's already hurt there see. This way we get to take it off them before they use it to commit a crime. This way whenever they step out of their house equipped to commit a crime they are at risk that they might be arrested before they commit any crimes. No one in the general populous is inconvenienced as in general no one needs a knife more than 3" long. If they do need a bigger knife then they are able to legally carry one. Simple. No law-abiding citizens are inconvenienced; criminals are at risk and we can carry out preventative policing. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #57 November 10, 2004 Quote Its not a recent thing either, its been this way for years. You're right. The legislation they're whinning about dates back to 1953. I can't be arsed to check what the situation was before that but is likely to have been similar. We have rules prohibiting the carrying of weapons in public places dating back something like 10 centuries... I simply can't fathom the sudden interest in changing the status quo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #58 November 10, 2004 "I simply can't fathom the sudden interest in changing the status quo." Right wing paranoid hoplophiles are kinda twitchy by nature. They can't help it, hence they get our pity and not our scorn.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #59 November 10, 2004 Quote Quote Quote Over the past four years the number of incidents involving knives has risen by 350% If they would just leagalize guns they wouldn't have this problem. Seriously... they are morons!!! Really. Banning non-kitchen knives..I don't get it. Then they will use kitchen knives as weapons..... then they will ban those and will have a country filled with plastic knives and sporks!!! You know what? When I rightly and aptly point out that failure to make the realizations that you explain here means Brits are being morons, I get called out for being "anti British" or a "brit-hater" or something. Why did pointing out idiotic policies become forbidden? Just because it tends to embarrass and hold up to ridicule those who propose/enact idiotic policies? They should be exposed! There is NO EXCUSE for failing to realize that if the only knives available are kitchen knives, then kitchen knives are what will be used in stabbings. Forget for a moment about the fact that these laws will punish those who do not break the law with their folding/hunting/collectible knives. Let's just focus on the fact that this will not in any way prevent or diminish crime!! What the fuck is WRONG with the ability to think rationally in that country?! I am not anti-British, people: I used to be an anglophile. I am anti-STUPIDITY, and it seems you've been manifesting an awful lot of it lately. -Jeffrey I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this one , But in the defence of the people of the UK they are being controlled by labour government So for the time being....................... Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #60 November 10, 2004 Quote I object to the fact that if I were to visit England and go about my business as usual, I would be viewed as a criminal. 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' - simple, eh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #61 November 10, 2004 Quote 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' - simple, eh? with some that is more like: "I am American and I will damn well do whatever I want, where ever I want". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #62 November 10, 2004 Jeffrey & Aggie Dave - How many people do you know that have had to use a gun or a knife to defend themselves? CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #63 November 10, 2004 Quote Jeffrey & Aggie Dave - How many people do you know that have had to use a gun or a knife to defend themselves? I know more then a dozen people, actually.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #64 November 11, 2004 I think this is a bad idea. The following links show how divisive the effort to ban other items in the UK was...: Anti Ban: www.rathergood.com/spoonguard/ -and- Pro-Ban www.rathergood.com/banspoonguard/ Who gives the more convincing argument?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #65 November 11, 2004 Quote I know more then a dozen people, actually. And I know no one. This to me, is the difference between the UK and the US. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #66 November 11, 2004 Quote If I were walking down the street in britain with my Mini-Griptilian (2.75" blade, locking, part-serrated), which I use all the time in crafts I make with cord, are you telling me that the police wouldn't be able to pick me up for not having a "need" for the knife at that moment in time? If you tried to board a plane in the USA with your 2.75" knife you would be arrested and thrown in jail even if you had a need for it. If you tried to enter a Courthouse in the USA you would be searched without cause or reason, if found to have a weapon you would be questioned, maybe arrested and you would have the weapon confiscated. Many public building in the USA forbid citizens from carrying weapons and will search you without cause or reason before letting you enter. Most if not all concerts and sports games I have been to in the USA I was searched for weapons without cause or reason, I even have had to pass through a metal detector before being allowed to enter in some places. Some bars/nightclubs I have been to in the USA have searched me for weapons without cause or reason. Most schools in the USA use metal detectors to search all visitors without cause or reason. Gee, maybe the folks in the USA are paranoid about god-fearing upstanding citizens carrying weapons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #67 November 11, 2004 Quote Quote Jeffrey & Aggie Dave - How many people do you know that have had to use a gun or a knife to defend themselves? I know more then a dozen people, actually. Where do you normally hang Aggie, just want to make sure I stay as far away from you and your knife / gun wielding mates. I would hate to end up with a blade in my head. I don’t know a single person who has pulled a blade or gun on anyone, but then I guess it comes down to the company you keep.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #68 November 11, 2004 Quote Quote If I were walking down the street in britain with my Mini-Griptilian (2.75" blade, locking, part-serrated), which I use all the time in crafts I make with cord, are you telling me that the police wouldn't be able to pick me up for not having a "need" for the knife at that moment in time? If you tried to board a plane in the USA with your 2.75" knife you would be arrested and thrown in jail even if you had a need for it. If you tried to enter a Courthouse in the USA you would be searched without cause or reason, if found to have a weapon you would be questioned, maybe arrested and you would have the weapon confiscated. Many public building in the USA forbid citizens from carrying weapons and will search you without cause or reason before letting you enter. Most if not all concerts and sports games I have been to in the USA I was searched for weapons without cause or reason, I even have had to pass through a metal detector before being allowed to enter in some places. Some bars/nightclubs I have been to in the USA have searched me for weapons without cause or reason. Most schools in the USA use metal detectors to search all visitors without cause or reason. SFC you crack me up.... "without cause or reason" the US is a nation with a long history of shooting and stabbing each other, where everyone owns a gun or a believes they should carry a knife Do you not think that is "reason" enough If i ran a bar, school or museum etc I would be searching you ass if you wanted to enter, and my reason is as stated... *** Quote Gee, maybe the folks in the USA are paranoid about god-fearing upstanding citizens carrying weapons. No i just think they are paraniod about being stabbed in the face or taking a cap in the ass.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #69 November 11, 2004 It should be noted that Br0k3n comes from manchester which is allegedly one of the roughest places in the UK. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #70 November 11, 2004 Right, because we all know Aus is a crime free utopia where nothing bad ever happens to good people. Do you think being unarmed makes you safer? I'm safer while armed to protect myself, bad guy with a gun or wihtout. see first attached picture Do you think owning a gun makes you a violent criminal? I know dozens of armed people who've never done anything more illegal than speeding. see second picture Do you think that becuase you haven't been a victim you never will be? I haven't had a house catch fire either. Doesn't mean I don't have extinguishers. see third picturewitty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #71 November 11, 2004 Quote Right, because we all know Aus is a crime free utopia where nothing bad ever happens to good people. Do you think being unarmed makes you safer? I'm safer while armed to protect myself, bad guy with a gun or wihtout. see first attached picture Do you think owning a gun makes you a violent criminal? I know dozens of armed people who've never done anything more illegal than speeding. see second picture Do you think that becuase you haven't been a victim you never will be? I haven't had a house catch fire either. Doesn't mean I don't have extinguishers. see third picture Hold on a minute, I just have to stop laughing before i try to type a serious reply... but hold on maybe your being serious... ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #72 November 11, 2004 FYI - I was talking specifically about the UK not Aus, the fact I happen to be here is irrelevant to this conversation - I lived in the UK for 26 years. I will answer your questions even though they were directed at Oli: "Do you think being unarmed makes you safer?" No - that would be stupid logic. But on the flip side I don't think being armed makes much difference either as I tend to avoid situations likely to end up in a fight - something I have done succesfully for nearly 29 years. this comes down to the Bad guy with gun or without. There just are't as many bad guys here - you make it sound like an inevitability when it is a remote possibility. If someone pulls a gun on me and wants my wallet they can have it, ditto with a knife - I'm not about to risk my life for a few hundred bucks - remember he's the bad guy and by pulling he has demonstrated he doesn't have much to lose and little care for the law. "Do you think owning a gun makes you a violent criminal?" No. I just don't get the obsession and need to have them. But then I suppose if a dozen of my mates had had to defend themselves from "bad guys" as Aggie Daves have then I may be more likely to get one myself. I have never felt that need in the UK, or here for that matter. I have shot many a shotgun - but I don't campaign to be able to take it everywhere 'just in case' "Do you think that becuase you haven't been a victim you never will be? " No. I hope not to be and I will avoid likely situations that could end in trouble. But as I said earlier I will deal with that situation as and when it arrives. I honestly believe that if someone pulled a gun on me I would just do what they say - it's not worth the fight - I'm no coward but what is the point in fighting. If I could buy a handgun for personal protection I wouldn't, things just haven't got to that state yet. Aus is not a crime free utopia. Nor is England. I never said they were. Does some crime, even violent, mean I need to be carrying a gun. For me, No. Bad things happen every day but since I have been in Aus and all my time in the UK I have never seen or had any of my friends involved in a situation where a knife, a gun or even a baseball bat would be necessary. Thanks for the pictures. Very pretty. Didn't change my mind - still not paranoid. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #73 November 11, 2004 Quote Quote You guys always seem to pick upon the irrelevent points of our over-controlling government ... That in and of itself is reason enough to emigrate or start hurting politicians...but whatever you use will be banned next. So use something that sucks, like English food. Yeah, a banger will leave a pretty seious mark if you throw it hard enough...or maybe use one in a sling shot. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #74 November 11, 2004 Aggie, you sound like you been in a lot of gun battles, and Kennedy you sound like you hope to one day. Perhaps you chaps can explain what these situations might be or what they were. I can’t imagine where I am going to run into a situation that will require me to be “tooled up”----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #75 November 11, 2004 Quote Jeffrey & Aggie Dave - How many people do you know that have had to use a gun or a knife to defend themselves? There's one who is a regular poster to this particular forum. It's not that uncommon. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
