Ban Knives!

[br0k3n 0]

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Jeffrey & Aggie Dave - How many people do you know that have had to use a gun or a knife to defend themselves?

There's one who is a regular poster to this particular forum. It's not that uncommon.

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Jim

it might not be uncommon for you... in 30 years I do not know a single person who has had to use a knife or gun to "defend" themselves. So to me I guess is not common.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[AggieDave 6]

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So to me I guess is not common.

Good for you.

Being in that situation sucks, I promise you it sucks; however, if you end up in a situation where your life is on the line you will thank god you're armed if you're allowed to be armed, I also promise you that.

As for the company I keep and where I hang out, I'm not sitting around in seedy biker bars or anything like that, infact the only situation where I thought my life was in danger since I've had a conceal carry license was at a drive through ATM in a sleeply country college town. The only time someone has pulled a gun on me was in the little country town I grew up in, in north Texas.

It comes down to different cultures, no matter what the law states, people will accomplish what they want to accomplish. If weapons are banned then only the law abiding citizens will be the ones unarmed. YOU can believe what YOU want to believe, but that's what it comes down to.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CornishChris 5]

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It's not that uncommon.

It is round here.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[AggieDave 6]

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in 30 years I do not know a single person who has had to use a knife or gun to "defend" themselves.

I like how you put defend in quotes to make it look bad. Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean its wrong, and just because your life has been lived in a bubble doesn't mean that others find themselves in harms way due to chance.

Damn I'm glad we went to war and kick the british out of the colonies a long time ago.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CornishChris 5]

Just because you has not had to defend yourself from someone does not mean that you live in a bubble - do you know how ridiculous that sounds. It is like something out of a western - "You ain't lived 'til you killed a man".

No wait, I suppose a skydiver who has travelled all round the world and every single person he knows could be construed as living in a bubble because they haven't 'taken one for the team'.

Actually no I can't.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[br0k3n 0]

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in 30 years I do not know a single person who has had to use a knife or gun to "defend" themselves.

I like how you put defend in quotes to make it look bad. Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean its wrong, and just because your life has been lived in a bubble doesn't mean that others find themselves in harms way due to chance.

Damn I'm glad we went to war and kick the british out of the colonies a long time ago.

"Life in a bubble" you make me laugh

Although I didn't think was relevant to this thread, I will mention it now.

Interestingly, during my “bubble” experience was a 7-year military career, which involved two 6-month tours in an armed conflict (that’s a war).

I think if we are going to talk about, guns, shooting people and life being in danger then I am a little more qualified then you.

How many times have you shot live ammunition at a person?
Me – about 4 times (considering I was an aircraft tech, not infantary)

How many time has your life been threatened by someone with a gun actually firing at you?
Me – at least 10

How many people have you seen killed or wounded as a result of gunfire?
Me – to many to count

How many of these people did you know?
Me – 3

So I guess I picked the wrong “bubble” to live and, as it turned out to be a pretty dangerous one.

And to be honest, I reckon if it came to it I don’t think you could point a loaded weapon at someone and knowingly and intentionally pull the trigger to end their life. It not like it is in the movies, and I know. Do you??

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[mnealtx 0]

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I know more then a dozen people, actually.

And I know no one. This to me, is the difference between the UK and the US.

How many people do you know that have been mugged/robbed/etc?

There are some that will not meekly submit to violence, and there are some that will. Sheepdogs and sheep, so to speak.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[br0k3n 0]

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I know more then a dozen people, actually.

And I know no one. This to me, is the difference between the UK and the US.

How many people do you know that have been mugged/robbed/etc?

There are some that will not meekly submit to violence, and there are some that will. Sheepdogs and sheep, so to speak.

let me guess your a sheepdog...

Maybe, just maybe there are some people that just avoid violence.. did you ever think of that. or maybe im just loco

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[rehmwa 2]

I'm in Bangkok this week. All this thread has done is now I want to go out knife shopping. They have some really cool ones in some of the vendor stalls at night.

Oh, it also reminds me of the Simpson's episode where Bart earns the merit badge to have a knife.

Really, you either trust people's basic motivations or you don't. If you one is arrogant and thinks they are self proclaimed superior and must decide for the rest of the stupid people in the world, then that person would want laws like this. I choose to think the best of people. Therefore, I have no issue with owning any kind of knife and trust others to If They Choose to Do So. And to be aware of the exceptions to the rules and be aware they will break futile shams of law like this anyway.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"They have some really cool ones in some of the vendor stalls at night."

Get down to Patpong, there's some good counterfeit stuff there, and if the retail therapy doesn't work, there's fun to be had in the bars.

"If you one is arrogant and thinks they are self proclaimed superior and must decide for the rest of the stupid people in the world, then that person would want laws like this."
That cuts (pun intended)both ways. This thread is all about foreign citizens trying to tell us how to live our lives. And lets face it, we are having none of that.

Have fun in Bangkok, like any other city around the globe, it is fun, but be sensible.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[miked10270 0]

"How many people do you know that have been mugged/robbed/etc?"

Professionally, quite a few in Scotland over the years, and in none of those cases would they have been "saved" by having a knife.

Personally, none.

"There are some that will not meekly submit to violence, and there are some that will. Sheepdogs and sheep, so to speak."

None of the 7 Border Collies (sheepdogs) I've owned over the years have ever carried a knife. I did ask the 3 I've got at the moment if they wanted a knife to carry, but they didn't seem all that interested.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Doesn't it bother you that people in your country are forbidden from possessing and/or using commonplace, everyday items that people in other parts of the world are free to have and use?

No.

If those items are Knives / Guns or other deadly items.... that I dont need other than to escalate violence in a confrontation.

You didnt respond before... so I'll ask again. Your sword carrying church attacker... do you think he should be allowed to carry his sword up until the point he firsts uses it?

That's funny, because I (and most Americans) do not regard fighting back against deadly physical force in order to save our own lives "escalat[ing] violence in a confrontation."

I didn't say the sword-wielder should be allowed to carry it, I was talking about the failure of laws to govern and control crazies. But that's what laws against the average person carrying an average knife are attempting to do, so they are doomed to failure AND they have the corollary consequence of preventing people from lawfully having useful items.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Paulipod 0]

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I didn't say the sword-wielder should be allowed to carry it, I was talking about the failure of laws to govern and control crazies. But that's what laws against the average person carrying an average knife are attempting to do, so they are doomed to failure AND they have the corollary consequence of preventing people from lawfully having useful items

So WHY SHOULDNT the man be allowed to carry a sword? - It doesnt mean he wants to use it right? Maybe just defense?

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Jeffrey & Aggie Dave - How many people do you know that have had to use a gun or a knife to defend themselves?"

Aggiedave is not advocating that we change our laws to accommodate his opinion. I personally have no problems with my old pal Aggs doing whatever he has to do to ensure that he and his loved ones have a secure and happy existence.
Hell, I don't even mind PJ lugging an armoury to the pub in order to be happy. I think he may be overcompensating for something, but it doesn't bother me.

I do object to people trying to tell us how to live though, specifically foriegners, and damn uppity colonials at that.

Aggs hit the nail on the head, he said that there are cultural differences between our societies, one of those differences is our respective approaches to carrying weapons, for whatever reason. If we could all respect those differences we could all get on with something more meaningful.
Our laws regarding the legality of carrying blades have not essentially changed in as long as I can remember, I think Matt said the laws have been essentially the same for about 50 years, so why all the hoo hah?

PJ you voted for a party that specifically will protect your rights to own and carry weapons, what do you fear from our situation, don't you trust the person you voted for?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[bigway 4]

Gidday peaceful jeffery, i see you are at it again. i have not read the whole thread but am imagining it is another whole of england against peacefuljeffery thread again.
I am glad that it is illegal to carry a knife. I do not need to and do not want to. if someone is carrying a knife they are looking for trouble or they want to be macguyver. Now carrying a swiss army knife, sweet as but anything 4 inches or bigger is a deadly weapon and not needed in society unless you are going fishing.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[rehmwa 2]

No real time to head to PadPong. Just the street vendors on SukHumVit briefly. I'm not seeing the night life this trip - rather work out tonight in the gym hotel this time. Don't worry, I'm a veteran traveler in the far east. After enough trips, though, it doesn't feel much different than any large metropolis. People really are the same everywhere when take the time to know them.

And I really thought the thread was more generic than foreigners telling others how to live, I read it more as governments telling their citizens how to live and where to draw that line. Seems knives are a bit overboard, kinda like outlawing hammers or broomsticks. But I don't live there.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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If I were walking down the street in britain with my Mini-Griptilian (2.75" blade, locking, part-serrated), which I use all the time in crafts I make with cord, are you telling me that the police wouldn't be able to pick me up for not having a "need" for the knife at that moment in time?

(emphasis my own)

Yes, I am telling you that - any knife with a non-locking blade less than 3" is specifically excluded from the act and as such it is perfectly legal to carry it.

I asked about a Mini-Griptilian. You're saying the difference between freedom and prison is the fact that it has an Axis Lock device to keep it from closing on my fingers during use? That's enough to send me to prison, even though it's a modest 2.75 inches in blade length?

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The legislation is not intended to prevent knives from getting onto the street - it is not some magical metal detector sat on everyone's front door through which they must pass.

You know what? You have cameras watching your citizens on nearly every corner. I don't give you long before you have devices on those corners scanning people for chemical residue matching drugs or explosives, or metallic objects. Of course, what would have to result is a police lockdown of the corner and the detention of all present until it can be determined who has the residue (or the bulk quantity) on them. Your society is clearly headed in that direction. Ours is too, lamentably, but at a far slower pace than yours is, and with much more resistance from the people, and our problems in part derive from the example of capitulation to government intrusion that you are setting.

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The legislation is there to give police the powers to arrest people who are a threat to society. If you have a large knife you are carrying an item that a) you don’t need and b) you could use to injure someone.

The same could be said of a person walking home from a pickup cricket game who is carrying a cricket bat.

You are flinging around the term "large knife" as though it is a settled matter. I argue that a 4" blade is not a "large knife," nor is my 3.75" Spyderco Military extraordinarily large, but it would have me in trouble with the british law.

Nor is it settled that "I don't need it." I don't have to justify a "need" for something that I am not using to harm someone. What if I wanted to walk around town with a flask full of gasoline? I certainly don't need it; it can be used to do FAR more damage than a knife can; there is no law against it.

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Sure you might not want to use it to injure someone but if you don’t need it why on earth does it matter to you if you’re not allowed to carry it?

What if I just like it, and just like the feeling of carrying it. What if I admire its engineering and construction, and like to have it with me, possibly to use, possibly to admire, and possibly to show off? Who are you or the government to treat me as though I am already guilty of the worst-case actions I could theoretically take?

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If you want a knife use a 3" one. Why would the average person need a knife bigger than that?

I refuse to be limited in my life because of the stifled imaginations of people who think like you do about what I should be free to do.

And you fail to make a case for why I should capitulate to YOUR limitations just because YOU don't see what I see.

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Seriously? Sure tradesmen, people with a specific task to carry out, someone transporting one from A-B - they might need to have it on them… but they're ALLOWED to have them under our legislation - no problem.

But people who carry an item on the off chance that they may end up with a need to use it during an average day, they're fucked. Is that it?

I don't use my Spyderco Military every day. It's with me every day, though, because I can't necessarily know and prepare for which days I'll come to have a need for it.

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What if you don't have a reason for having it? Well as a corollary you don't need it – that’s kind of inherent in the fact that you have no reason for having one. As such you can make do with a 3" knife – there’s not that much of a difference.

You keep saying "use a 3" knife...use a 3" knife..." as though agreeing to being limited to a 3" knife actually protects those I might otherwise hurt if I were allowed to carry a 3.75" knife.

If you could demonstrate that knives 3" and under did not have the capability to be quite lethal, I might go a certain distance toward agreeing that the 3" length limit made sense and were something I could abide by. But you cannot. A 3" knife, even a 2.75" knife, can indeed be EXTREMELY lethal, so what are you saving by limiting people to that length? Not a goddamned thing.

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If all knives were legally carried then we would have to wait for the bad guys to use the knife before we could take it off them. Someone's already hurt there see. This way we get to take it off them before they use it to commit a crime. This way whenever they step out of their house equipped to commit a crime they are at risk that they might be arrested before they commit any crimes.

It is non-disprovable that taking an over-length knife off a person and prosecuting him even before he has shown the slightest propensity to cause harm with it has not saved anyone from harm. I can easily argue that you are unable to prove that the over-length knife would have caused harm had you not confiscated it and charged the carrier.

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No one in the general populous is inconvenienced as in general no one needs a knife more than 3" long. If they do need a bigger knife then they are able to legally carry one. Simple. No law-abiding citizens are inconvenienced; criminals are at risk and we can carry out preventative policing. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Sure it does. You're inured to the idea that the government should put a myriad limits on your freedom for the claim that they made the public safer. I, as an American, reject that notion.

You still have not demonstrated to my satisfaction that a lock makes a 3" knife sufficiently more dangerous as a weapon that it must be banned despite its value as a safety device for the user.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Ripple 0]

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it is another whole of england against peacefuljeffery thread again.

More the other way round, I reckon

Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Seems knives are a bit overboard,"

No, not at all, just big knives, that can't be explained away, eg an 8" switchblade for use in knitting or crochet and such like.

If you are carrying a sword, and are on your way to (absurd example...) a Scottish Country dancing competition, you have a valid excuse.

If you are carrying a claymore to your local night club, well, thats a different story alltogether.

Well thats the way I see it anyways. MikeD has to enforce these laws, so he probably has a better insight to the actual application of the law than I.

I actually like this goal setting approach much more than a rigid prescriptive approach. Its much more flexible in its appplication and can cater for occasional oddball circumstances. I guess it also allows the cops to apply a sort of profiling to their suspects, eg the person carrying the sword in the above example probably doesn't look like a person spoiling for a fight, and probably won't attract too much attention to themselves.

The guy shouting and causing a furore outside the pub at closing time probably IS spoiling for a fight, and if lifted with a weapon will face an overnight stay at Her Majesty's leisure, and some explaining in front of the beak in the morning

Whether this approach actually works to curtail actual trouble makers, and not impede the wee lassie going to practice her dancing, remains to be seen.

I know you guys prefer prescriptive laws clearly stating what is right and what is wrong (most of my experience of this is in technical legislation applied to engineering) but trust me, a goal setting approach can work. In my experience our goal setting legislation, when applied to offshore engineering, is far more sensible than traditional legislation.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[bigway 4]

i think jeffery has just posted the longest thread in these forums that i have ever seen.
it was sooooooo long. I got to ask everyone, please answer. Did you read it after he spent half an hour writing it?
i saw how long it was and thought, na.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Its not a recent thing either, its been this way for years.

You're right. The legislation they're whinning about dates back to 1953. I can't be arsed to check what the situation was before that but is likely to have been similar. We have rules prohibiting the carrying of weapons in public places dating back something like 10 centuries... I simply can't fathom the sudden interest in changing the status quo.

You have rules going back before the knights-and-armor period that prohibit carrying of weapons? What did all those medieval knights carry?

I think you mean you have rules to govern the commoners -- your history is replete with examples of the elite social classes having more rights than the rabble -- a situation that in America we deplore.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[bigway 4]

PJ, are you ever going to start moaning about your country? your moaning all sounds the same no matter what the conversation is about.
I think the brits are pretty happy that they can piss you off so much without even trying. do you realise how long and repetative your posts are?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I object to the fact that if I were to visit England and go about my business as usual, I would be viewed as a criminal.

'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' - simple, eh?

Simple but stupid.

If they were buggering boys in Rome, would that be what is recommended behavior?

Just because they have this fetish for being defenseless and dependent on their government, doesn't mean I have to be.

I guess the solution is I just have to do without visiting England.

... And there was much rejoicing.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Paulipod 0]

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You have rules going back before the knights-and-armor period that prohibit carrying of weapons? What did all those medieval knights carry?

Can we just do a sanity check on that.... 1953 was just after WW2 - I know you US peeps think we were backward and were totally reliant on the US - but we werent fighting on horses in shiney armour

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Most schools in the USA use metal detectors to search all visitors without cause or reason.

You need to back the fuck up and back this the fuck up. Where on earth do you come up with this statement?! CITE please!

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Gee, maybe the folks in the USA are paranoid about god-fearing upstanding citizens carrying weapons.

We're not banning simply being out anywhere at all carrying such a knife. And I am inclined to think that you have the same such policies in place in your airports and courthouses as well.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"