Ban Knives!

[AggieDave 6]

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>>How many people do you know that have had to use a gun or a knife
>>to defend themselves?

>I know more then a dozen people, actually.

What did they think about their experiences afterwards? Was this all one 'group' of people?

First of all, not all one group. I'm not even sure any of them have met the others, especially since a number of these folks are spread out across Texas.

What did they think afterwards? They were really damn shook up, not real happy about having to react how they reacted, but glad the reacted quickly and correctly to protect their lives (and family's lives).


If you're thinking I've got a group of friends wiping their weapons down and sharpening knives drinking beer and talking with excitement about waiting for the opportunity to defend themselves, you're very very wrong. You couldn't be further from the truth. The people I know that are serious about personal defense practice and train, but loath the day they'll have to actually use their skills. It comes down to wanting to be prepared so they dont' end up a victim and their families don't end up as victims.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Paulipod 0]

Absolutely right Kennedy - I was out of order with that line and appologise. Sorry PJ.

It does make me a little angry when people can possible blame innocent victims of a horrific disease (which I have worked closely with).

No one deserves that kind of illness.

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

  Quote

NO ONE - deserves to be infected with a killer disease. PERIOD

If you think that the millions of people that have it do in some way - thats FUCKED UP.

If you think the HIV pandemic in Africa is the fault of all those people - I hope you meet someone that you need to defend yourself against with your knives and guns.

I used to believe in everyones right to vote - there is one thing you are changing my mind about.

Is your belief in the right to vote really so fragile?

Look, I see one major mistake you've made here, and that's inferring that I think people DESERVE HIV. I did not ever say that, so all you're doing is beating on a strawman.

Also, it's not very mature of you to suggest that I come to harm even if I indeed said the offensive things that you falsely attribute to me.

First you say that I would be an awful person to suggest that Africans (even though I did not mention Africa by name) are causing their own AIDS pandemic (um, who is causing it there if not Africans themselves, though?); then you say that no one deserves AIDS; then you say that my saying so (which I didn't even do) would be enough to make me deserve death. Do you see the inconsistency?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

  Quote

Absolutely right Kennedy - I was out of order with that line and appologise. Sorry PJ.

It does make me a little angry when people can possible blame innocent victims of a horrific disease (which I have worked closely with).

No one deserves that kind of illness.

My problem with them is not that they deserve AIDS, it's that culturally, some people in the world are actually resisting education and factual information that would prevent the spread of the disease.

When I read that there are people in Africa who actually believe the ridiculous superstition that having sex with a virgin will cure you of a disease, I got angry. When the path to staying free of the disease is so clear, I don't feel there is an excuse for spreading it.

But you can't point to where I have said innocent people deserve the disease.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[skreamer 1]

I suppose if you put out enough bait eventually you will get some bites.

[Paulipod 0]

Ok, Firstly.. again... Agreed - I shouldnt wish harm on you or anyone else for that matter. However when you are so unsympathetic to the suffering of others - its a first reaction to suggest that you swap places with them or experience similar discomfort.

You said exaclty

  Quote

It's also not being ruined by those countries where as much as half the population has HIV, and growing.

Which suggests :
1. That the most or all of the people that have got HIV have knowingly made choices which led them to infection.

At best it is an insulting unfair statement about people that are suffering.

Alot of people in this country are unaware of how large the problem is, and in a situation where you can live for years with no inication of a problem... this is an issue that snuck up on a society that do not have adequate facilities for alot of what you would take for granted - let alone STI prevention.

Knowledge is growing - but if you were to speak to most of the infected people they would disagree that they had the slightest inclination of what they were about to experience.

Having watched many many good people die from this, I can only believe that your insensitivity is achieved through no experience or contact with these people.

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Edited to add:
If being a "damn uppity colonial" is politically correct then you should give me the ok to use towel head to describe the terrorists..."

"I call bullshit on that. "



Okay, after 3 years of reasonably civilised debate, a reformation of the forums, various non-malicious shenanigans, a war, a major election, and numerous scandals, I've had an official warning, its my first, and anyone passing the Broken Drum in Auchenblae this evening is welcome to partake of the beers I will buy for it.
I feel it is sad that we have seen a spate of specifically directed, but yet, on the surface, non-personal attacks, example "the queen is a whore" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1336069#1336069, straight out of left field and totally unsolicited. If I upped and said "Those right wing election stealing fucks like Bush , Cheney, and Wolfowitz and all who follow them suck donkey dicks for crack" (please dont let your sensitive feelings get ruffled, its only an example
Statements like those seen in this thread, and others recently, typify some posters who will goad, taunt, insult, and berate posters without actually crossing the line into personal ( but national attacks appear to be acceptable, as long as we don't become bigotted) attacks.

Its a shame, as this particular thread was not about the letter of the law, per se, but the intent of the law, prescription vs goal setting, as it were. PJ has all but made personal attacks here, but has stopped short of the true definition. Read the thread they are legion (who was the term 'Moronic Scottish' directed at, for example), yet PJ was the first to squeal when rebutted at a personal level. The ruling on personal attacks has in my mind been adhered to in this thread, but several responses have been very close to the edge.

The intent is clearly malicious, but the letter of the law is being adhered to, and thats just wrong.
A bit like carrying a machete, with no reasonable explanation.

It seems to me that you, Juanesky and PJ are hell bent on luring discussions into slanging fests, specifically designed to draw sensitive types into making uncharacteristic attacks, only to turn around and say "me?".

In the instance cited, I did indeed call Jeffrey naive, and sad, (lets face it, he is, his own family sends him hate mail, thats sad in my book, and he's naive as he has knows fuck all about our society, evidenced by his confusion over which country the thread was actually all about http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1336909#1336909 )however I tried to mask my true intent by using the term 'ass' to refer to his donkey, as we all know every self respecting Ogre has an Ass as a sidekick. I'm guilty of playing word games here. But thats the way we speak over here, an ass is a donkey/mule, whatever. I assure you, if I truly wanted to insult him I would have called him 'an arse', thats the word we use for the thing that shite comes out of.

I fear that if the current cycle of goad, attack, whine, howl 'personal attack', continues, then Sangiro will simply pull the plug on this forum. If I was him, I would already have yanked the wire on this one. Lets face it, its fuck all to do with skydiving, but it does keep the noise from the other forums.

The original intent of this forum was to provide a place where people from different cultures and geographical locations could discuss world events, and opinions. It would be a crying shame to lose this because of a few off hand comments, and pseudo-over sensitive individuals.

If the bosses take offence, I'll see you in a couple of weeks, if not, its back to the serious business of putting the world to rights, come monday.

Either way, I sincerely wish all my friends and worthy opponents in civilised debate a most excellent weekend, I'm off to the pub.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[mr2mk1g 10]

Nice post Nac. It’s sad that the recent tactic adopted by some of directly attacking groups or classes of individuals as a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules of this forum has gone unchecked.

I do not blame the moderators; they have not been provided with rules under which they may prevent such attacks. Nor do I blame whoever drafted the rules; such underhanded attacks are outside of what could have been foreseen.

I hope the trend now ceases given that its true intent has become obvious to all. Should it not, I hope the moderators are given the powers to enforce the principals held dear to the owner of this site as opposed to simply the letter of the law as it now stands.

Have a nice weekend guys.

[juanesky 0]

  Quote

It seems to me that you, Juanesky and PJ are hell bent on luring discussions into slanging fests, specifically designed to draw sensitive types into making uncharacteristic attacks, only to turn around and say "me?".

So many words to whine and cry? I think it is funny when you, and people from the UK-Europe et al start making derogatory comments about the US, the US president-Government, etc, but when some one tells your queen is a whore, you start immediately taking offence.....

I personally royalty is the maximum expression of uselessness in the current world we live. What is the use you have for an old bag like here who keeps getting richer at all your expense, and that riches she currently has, are byproduct of brutality accross centuries?.

You think you are clever and that we dumb americans can't see through insult when you write one? Maybe this has been the first time you have been called into it, but it is not your first time.

It's a total different ball game when you say fuck the queen- or GWB for that matter than when you say to someone FU...Big difference.

Good riddance, and hope you get to enjoy your shitty weather (and I really hope you get to enjoy it)!

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[skreamer 1]

Out of pure curiosity, how old are you?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  Quote

Out of pure curiosity, how old are you?

Lol, I don't think it really matters.

Reading NacMac's post and then his response to it says it all.........

NacMac, excellent post, probably one of the best posts I have read on dz.com non-topical forums.

Juane, if your only reply to a well thought out post is......you did it first.........that says enough.

[billvon 3,067]

>If you're thinking I've got a group of friends wiping their weapons
>down and sharpening knives drinking beer and talking with excitement
> about waiting for the opportunity to defend themselves . . . .

?? I didn't think that.

To me, a police officer who uses his gun has already failed in his primary job, which is keeping the peace. I am glad that he _has_ that gun to fall back on in the same way that I'm glad TM's have cypreses. Doesn't mean it's OK to depend on it, but it does save lives, as long as you don't rely on it to do so.

Along those lines, how did your friends change their behavior to avoid having to use their gun/knife again? Or do they not think that way?

[AggieDave 6]

  Quote

how did your friends change their behavior to avoid having to use their gun/knife again? Or do they not think that way?

CCL holders are NOT cops and don't act like cops, they are not required by law to get involved with anything. Generally speaking folks leave bad situations before they exculate.

They were situations that warrented drawing their weapons for their immediate well being. Trying to remember the exact circumstances, but I believe they were all immediate response and surprise attacks. One was an attempted car jacking, another was an attempted mugging with a perp holding a knife.

Basically it wasn't because these folks were driving a porsche through the really bad part of town or putting themselves in bad situations, it was a situation that found them independant of their surroundings and actions.

So whats to change? Don't go out in public anymore? Well, one instance was a perp in the guys house, so strike that.

Basically society sucks and although there are things that can be done to help keep you from being a target, if a perp wants you, he'll go after you. All you can do is be prepaired to defend yourself and your family.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Basically society sucks

I am so very, very happy that I do not and cannot say that about the society I live in.

[AggieDave 6]

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I am so very, very happy that I do not and cannot say that about the society I live in.

Ah, so you live in a society free of crime and violence. What a nice little world to live in.

Basically I see it as two kinds of people. Those who recognise the threat in society, understanding the threat level and situational awareness, and then there are the sheep. The sheep are blind to the threats around them in every day life. The sheep are the ones that become victims.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  Quote

Ah, so you live in a society free of crime and violence. What a nice little world to live in.

Nope, but in general my society doesn't suck. In general my society is pretty good.

  Quote

Basically I see it as two kinds of people. Those who recognise the threat in society, understanding the threat level and situational awareness, and then there are the sheep. The sheep are blind to the threats around them in every day life. The sheep are the ones that become victims

Basically, I see shades of grey, not just black and white.

[billvon 3,067]

>Basically it wasn't because these folks were driving a porsche through the
>really bad part of town or putting themselves in bad situations, it was a
>situation that found them independant of their surroundings and actions.

I'm not sure I buy it. There was widespread support recently for a mandatory grounding for anyone who had a cypres firing for any reason. The idea there is that if you put yourself in a situation where you need one, it's your fault. If you got knocked out, it was your fault for jumping with a newbie who couldn't swoop. If you have someone hang onto your right hand, it's your fault for not deploying your reserve at your decision altitude. The answer "Hey, skydiving's dangerous and if problems want to find you, they'll find you" doesn't wash in such situations.

Now, relying on pulling a gun to save your life is far more dangerous than relying on a cypres to save your life. Cypreses have a pretty good track record when it comes to saving people's lives; the number of times that producing a gun prevents (rather than precipitates) violence is nowhere near that number. So it behooves people to avoid such situations to begin with.

What worries me is that there may be people who say "Hey, I don't need to change my behavior - I have a gun!" They don't move to a safer part of the city, or avoid walking at night, or get a security system. Why should they? They have a gun.

I see such attitudes as very similar to the "hey, I don't need to avoid jumping with Zoe the Zoo Load Chick - I have a cypres!" I have met people in the real world who had such an attitude towards guns, and they are examples of people who are less safe, rather than more safe, because of their reliance upon their weapons. I remember one guy from where I grew up who got in a knife fight in a bar. When he got out of the hospital, his comment was "good thing I had a knife! This thing's never leaving my side again when I go out drinking."

Now, I don't know any of your friends that you describe above, and I don't know their attitudes as well as you do. I hope, though, that their weapons do not make them feel that they are protected enough to not take whatever precautions they have to take to avoid needing them.

[wmw999 2,532]

Nice post.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,532]

  Quote

Those who recognise the threat in society, understanding the threat level and situational awareness, and then there are the sheep. The sheep are blind to the threats around them in every day life. The sheep are the ones that become victims

Are they? Or are the ones who recognize the threat, and spend a lot of time and heartache on it, the ones who are victimized, a little at a time.

I don't choose to spend my life in fear, looking for the next person who's going to offend me. I choose to think the best of people, while taking small steps for safety (I do lock my house, but not even my car most of the time). To me, spending time and money on constant contingency planning is being victimized just as much as the person who is mugged and doesn't have their gun handy.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AggieDave 6]

Bill,

Comparing a Cypres ride to having to defend yourself has to be one of the absolute worst analogies I've seen in a LONG time.

We've talked about personal defense at length and I firmly believe that until you find yourself in a situation (if that ever happens and I hope it doesn't) you will not understand my perspective.

Furthermore, you don't know the people I'm talking about and they nor I are the folks that feels like a weapon is a freepass. Self defense starts with situational awareness and avoiding situations. Period.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

  Quote

Are they? Or are the ones who recognize the threat, and spend a lot of time and heartache on it, the ones who are victimized, a little at a time.

I don't choose to spend my life in fear, looking for the next person who's going to offend me. I choose to think the best of people, while taking small steps for safety (I do lock my house, but not even my car most of the time). To me, spending time and money on constant contingency planning is being victimized just as much as the person who is mugged and doesn't have their gun handy.

Your arguement could be made for anything that someone takes seriously. Anything. Be it motorcycle maintance, personal defense or practicing emergancy drills every jump day. So I don't buy it.

Do I live in fear? Nope. Am I prepared? Yup. There's a difference, a large difference. You know it as well as I do that your arguement isn't solid.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,067]

>We've talked about personal defense at length and I firmly believe that
> until you find yourself in a situation (if that ever happens and I hope it
> doesn't) you will not understand my perspective.

Someone once wrapped their arm around my neck and tried to strangle me and take my wallet at the same time (in Times Square) - does that count?

>Self defense starts with situational awareness and avoiding situations.

Well, good. That sounds like a good way to approach it.

[AggieDave 6]

  Quote

Someone once wrapped their arm around my neck and tried to strangle me and take my wallet at the same time (in Times Square) - does that count?

Yup. Shows a complete lack of situational awareness. If they had a knife we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

If they're on you, its pretty much too late to draw and fire, you have to engage the opposition then gain distance. Then again, if you've never studied personal defense with a weapon (which is obvious), you wouldn't know that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Yup. Shows a complete lack of situational awareness. If they had a knife we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

If they're on you, its pretty much too late to draw and fire, you have to engage the opposition then gain distance. Then again, if you've never studied personal defense with a weapon (which is obvious), you wouldn't know that.

Or, like in Bill's scenario, nobody died.........

[AggieDave 6]

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Or, like in Bill's scenario, nobody died.........

You're making an assumption. You know what assuming does, right?

You assume that I would draw and fire. Well, thats the point I was making in the previous post. At that point you can't draw and fire...

Anyways, this is getting repetitive and tiresome. Believe what ever the hell you want to and do what you want to achieve the level of personal defense you like. What ever that happens to be, enjoy. I will continue to excersize my legal right to maintain the levle of personal protection I choose as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."