Kennedy 0 #1 November 12, 2004 http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=763492003&rware=PWTCOLYKOFOV&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=1 QuotePlaying with guns is 'good for boys' MURDO MacLEOD AND SCOTT McCULLOCH BANNING boys from playing with toy guns is futile and may even damage their development, a leading child psychologist has warned. Confirming what many guilty parents long suspected, Penny Holland says boys will indulge in gunplay regardless of attempts by schools, nurseries and guardians to stop them. Holland, who claims boys have fallen victim to politically correct dogma, claims that suppressing their need for boisterous play may be counter-productive. Holland, senior lecturer in early childhood studies at London Metropolitan University, believes that boys who have been banned from playing at soldiers, pirates, or superheroes, become disruptive and live up to a "bad boy" image. But her views have been strongly opposed by gun control groups and families of the children killed in the 1996 Dunblane massacre. The tragedy dramatically accelerated the existing trend towards banning toy guns and swords in shops and nurseries alike. But in a new book, We Don’t Play With Guns Here, Holland says the ban on violent play should be reconsidered. She argues that the zero-tolerance approach that emerged in the 1960s and 1970s was wrong to assume that "the spiral of male violence" could be broken by preventing boys from playing aggressive games. Holland claims that 30 years after the ban on playing with guns and swords came into vogue, there has been no evidence of a decline in their desire to play violent games. Boys continued to play behind the backs of staff, even when they had been told it was wrong. Even when the plastic guns and swords were taken away, they did what generations of boys have done before. Pieces of wood, tennis rackets and even pens and crayons, all became guns, swords, and daggers in the fertile young imagination. Holland adds there is no evidence that boys were more or less likely to grow into aggressive men because of the games they played. The book suggests that nurseries that had relaxed their ban on guns, swords and violent games reported that boys had more fun together, made closer friendships, and became more creative in other areas of play, such as dressing up as princes in fairy tales. Most such nurseries found that the amount of real fighting between boys declined. Holland said of the war games: "It is very much part of them making sense of the world. It relates to timeless themes of the struggle between good and evil. "It seems to represent a developmental need to play with these things and my feeling is that it is counter-productive to work against that. "Where there has been rigorous enforcement of zero tolerance, it marginalises these children because their interests are so squarely rejected. If they are constantly receiving negative responses to their play interests, with people saying, ‘No, we don’t play with guns here’, they absorb the sense that they are bad boys. They seek negative attention and it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle." Helen Fraser, a senior lecturer in child development at Edinburgh University, said she broadly agreed with Holland’s findings. She said: "It’s all a matter of balance and proportion. I would be very cautious of allowing too much of a fascination with guns to develop, but I think we can all think of examples where we played games such as Cowboys and Indians and it did us little harm. "What I would be more dubious about would be some of the scenes of violence on television and the impact of some very violent video games." A shooting coach, Alan Phillips, said the research was a welcome dose of common sense. Philips, a senior member of the UK Practical Shooting Association, said: "For years people who shoot have been demonised as representing some kind of ‘gun culture’. Maybe gangsters are embroiled in some kind of gun culture, but responsible shooters are certainly not. "When I was younger we always played Cowboys and Indians and sometimes just used our fingers as guns. We all turned out pretty normal, at least to my mind." However, the father of one of the victims of Dunblane, Charlie Clydesdale, was less enthusiastic about children playing with toy guns. Clydesdale, who lost his daughter Victoria when Thomas Hamilton killed 16 children and their teacher, admitted it would be difficult to prevent boys playing with toy guns, but urged manufacturers to make their guns less like the real thing. Recent advances in technology mean that toy guns have become increasingly realistic. Clydesdale said: "I am not in favour of children playing with guns, but if it’s going to happen then the guns should not look like real weapons. I am concerned that some toy guns look too much like real guns and that they might be leaving young people more open to the whole gun culture. If they are going to exist then they should be painted in bright colours or look more like space weapons even." Gill Marshall-Andrews, the Chair of the Gun Control Network, added: "I’m very sorry indeed to hear that someone is writing this kind of stuff. It’s perfectly possible to grow up as a well-adjusted young man even if one has never had anything to do with guns or toy weapons. What we want to be doing is taking guns out of society and out of circulation. "Worldwide, guns cause countless deaths, even some of the most notorious recent mass killings have all been perpetrated by people using guns which they held legally. We don’t want to encourage more interest in guns." A brief survey of some Scottish toy shops yesterday showed that children were keen on toy guns despite 30 years of discouragement. Edinburgh department store Jenners stocks three different kinds of toy gun. All of the models on display had a cowboy theme. They included a plastic replica of the Wild West Winchester repeater rifle, a single hand gun, complete with holster and ‘sheriff’ badge. At the nearby John Lewis department store, two kinds of guns were on display. Again, both had a Wild West theme. According to staff, the guns were the top-selling products in the store. A member of staff, who asked not to be named, admitted: "Although the toy guns are not our biggest seller in terms of profit, they are our biggest seller by volume." Briefing Children’s experts have traditionally believed boys should not be allowed to play with toy guns because of the risk they would grow up to be violent. The campaign against toy weapons has seen toy gun amnesties organised, and a number of shops ban the sale of toy guns, soldiers, tanks and warplanes. Other toys, such as Lego, have been designed so they cannot be used as toy weapons, deliberately avoiding military-style colours.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #2 November 12, 2004 Hmmm... Why is Kennedy readint through The Scotsman? It won't be because he's looking for the pics of the big muscley men in the Kilt adverts. No. That's not the reason. It wouldn't be, would it? Naaah. That couldn't be the reason. But yeah, it's right. Little boys do love to play with toy guns, so let them. Older boys will play with airguns. so let them (under supervision). Even older boys will hopefully join cadet organisations and shoot .22" and later full bore under supervision (and this is good). Thus the emerging adult doesn't see guns as some sort of "forbidden fruit", and is prepared should he need to use a gun as a tool in his adult life. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 November 12, 2004 Department of Justice National Institute of Justice Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention NCJ-143454, August 1995 "Urban Delinquency and Substance Abuse"This study did annual interviews of boys and girls of various ages from a random selection of 20,000 households. The purpose was to identify crucial factors that lead children into delinquency and crime. Here is one interesting finding they came up concerning the relationship between guns and delinquency. Figure 13: Relationship between type of gun owned and percent committing street, drug and gun crimes. Illegal gun - Street crimes = 74% Drug use = 41% Gun crimes = 21% No gun - Street crimes = 24% Drug use = 15% Gun crimes = 1% Legal Gun - Street crimes = 14% Drug use = 13% Gun crimes = 0% "The socialization into gun ownership is also vastly different for legal and illegal gunowners. Those who own legal guns have fathers who own guns for sport and hunting. On the other hand, those who own illegal guns have friends who own illegal guns and are far more likely to be gang members. For legal gunowners, socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it appears to take place "on the street". "Boys who own legal firearms have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns." * * * * *Teach your son the shooting sports, and there is a better chance that he will turn out "all right"! :-) Source: http://www.ncjrs.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,099 #4 November 12, 2004 Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 November 12, 2004 QuoteWow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. By bashing their enemy's skulls with clubs and stones. -------------------------------------------- "A Strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks". - Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of Thomas Jefferson, 318, Foley Ed. reissued 1967 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #6 November 12, 2004 Quoteow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. good for offense or defense............. s'gian dubhs, long bows,out of tune bagpipes and the dreaded frozen haggis tossMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,058 #7 November 12, 2004 >By bashing their enemy's skulls with clubs and stones. Actually, we've found plenty of ancient societies riddled with people with bashed in skulls. The ones who survived were the ones who learned to not do that - at least, not do it all the time. We're still learning, but I have hopes that one day we'll figure it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #8 November 13, 2004 QuoteActually, we've found plenty of ancient societies riddled with people with bashed in skulls. The ones who survived were the ones who learned to not do that - at least, not do it all the time. We're still learning, but I have hopes that one day we'll figure it out. And the societies where no one at all bashed their enemies heads... well they never had the chance to propagate, either. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #9 November 13, 2004 Quote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. We did, but we had a need. Eventually, our technological advancement gave us gunpowder. We then figured out how to use it to propel some lead, thus filling a human need for which nature did not provide. A most excellent discovery! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,099 #10 November 13, 2004 QuoteQuote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. We did, but we had a need. Eventually, our technological advancement gave us gunpowder. We then figured out how to use it to propel some lead, thus filling a human need for which nature did not provide. A most excellent discovery! Yes, but what about all the boys deprived of the benefits of playing with toy guns because guns hadn't been invented yet. They must have grown up psychologically scarred beyond description.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #11 November 13, 2004 QuoteBoys continued to play behind the backs of staff, even when they had been told it was wrong. Even when the plastic guns and swords were taken away, they did what generations of boys have done before. Pieces of wood, tennis rackets and even pens and crayons, all became guns, swords, and daggers in the fertile young imagination. I agree, a boy's young and fertile imagination WILL see what it wants to see in an object. I remember doing exactly what they say here, making everyday objects into swords and guns, and loving it. I was not prohibited by my parents or anyone else from playing with actual toy guns, or even BB guns, though. And I've grown into a non-violent person who has never been in trouble with the law, who has respect for the lives of those around me. Go figure. QuoteHolland said of the war games: "It is very much part of them making sense of the world. It relates to timeless themes of the struggle between good and evil." Hear hear. Exactly. This (learning to deal with right and wrong and the relationship between the two) cannot and should not be socially engineered out of our children. Quote"When I was younger we always played Cowboys and Indians and sometimes just used our fingers as guns. We all turned out pretty normal, at least to my mind." Some of these zero-tolerance schmucks have actually expelled kids from school for doing this... but it's the "gun culture" people who are fucked up?? QuoteHowever, the father of one of the victims of Dunblane, Charlie Clydesdale, was less enthusiastic about children playing with toy guns. First mistake: asking someone who has been irrevocably emotionally traumatized by this issue to comment on this very issue. Like you're going to get a reasoned response?! QuoteRecent advances in technology mean that toy guns have become increasingly realistic. WTF?!?!! What the hell has been newly invented that makes toy guns look any more like real guns than they have for decades? QuoteGill Marshall-Andrews, the Chair of the Gun Control Network, added: "Worldwide, guns cause countless deaths, even some of the most notorious recent mass killings have all been perpetrated by people using guns which they held legally. We don’t want to encourage more interest in guns." Really. Is that so? Because the recent mass killings that come to my mind are the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing; the 9/11 World Trade Center crashes; the terrorist takeover of a school in Russia; the train station bombing in Spain; and numerous suicide bombings in Iraq and Israel. These mass killings had nothing to do with guns (with the possible exception of the Russia thing, but most of the killing was done with bombs). So who is this ignorant gun control asshole who is telling us that "guns cause countless deaths"? For one thing, it's people causing the deaths. For another, HE CANNOT DEMONSTRATE FOR ONE MICROSECOND THAT GUNS HAVE BEEN USED MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN BOMBS AND JET PLANES TO KILL PEOPLE. You want to do a mass killing, and you want the highest body count possible, you do NOT use a gun, you use fire or bombs or impact. Some dude faces 10 manslaughter counts because he drove through an open-air market in California. No gun involved: ten people dead. These anti-gun types are intellectually bankrupt. You'd think they could manage to make their absurd claims even partly credible... -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #12 November 13, 2004 Quote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. Wow. I wonder how the human species was able to kill each other before guns were invented. Anti-gunners pretend as though murder is not possible without a firearm. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #13 November 13, 2004 QuoteS'gian-Dubhs, longbows,out of tune bagpipes and the dreaded frozen haggis toss Och no, it wisnae ever the frozen haggis toss that'd hae yon sassenachs a rinnin' awa' wi the rinnin doon the legs... it wis the threat o' ane o' Mither McKelvie's haggis bustin near them. Mike. PS: Hi Jeffrey, "WTF?!?!! What the hell has been newly invented that makes toy guns look any more like real guns than they have for decades?" Dare I say.... The Media? It's not a technological advance per se. But we HAVE moved from the time when "entertainment" was in the style of a John Ford Western, or an Ealing Film, Where the general morality was that evil does not prevail to things like Pulp Fiction and Reservoir dogs, etc... Where violence is in some way cool. So, perversely, those very people who'd tell us that "Bush is Bad", seem to lose their principles when it comes to playing a part that glorifies evil allowing it to triumph or at least survive. More realistic, but less moral. The news media has also moved from print and limited outside broadcast, to the ability to flash the uncut and grisly scenes around the world in seconds. So yeah, guns ARE more realistic at least in part because everyone is far more aware of what various guns look like! Personally, the only media I've seen recently where guns were prominent but the morality was good was a TV Series called "Firefly".... Which was axed!! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #14 November 13, 2004 but, but, guns kill people... there can't have been murders without guns, right?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #15 November 13, 2004 QuoteThey must have grown up psychologically scarred beyond description. Exactly! The end result of it? Guns are invented. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,058 #16 November 13, 2004 >And the societies where no one at all bashed their enemies heads... >well they never had the chance to propagate, either. Au contraire! Sweden is alive and kicking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #17 November 13, 2004 Quote Illegal gun - Street crimes = 74% Drug use = 41% Gun crimes = 21% No gun - Street crimes = 24% Drug use = 15% Gun crimes = 1% Legal Gun - Street crimes = 14% Drug use = 13% Gun crimes = 0% I was always wondering where do illegal weapons come from and is there any relationship between the numbers of manufactured weapons meant to be "legal" and numbers of "illegal weapons" on streets? Teaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #18 November 13, 2004 Quote >And the societies where no one at all bashed their enemies heads... >well they never had the chance to propagate, either. Au contraire! Sweden is alive and kicking. Sweden Norway Denmark unification war, circa 1520 Sweden in the Thrity Years war, circa 1630 Swedish War on Bremen, circa 1650 Attacked by Russia, Poland, Denmrk, 1700 Autria Russia Sweden war, circa 1800 and that's just what I thought of in my first search. You were saying, Bill?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #19 November 13, 2004 Quote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. They used other missile- or projectile-based weapons, such as the bow and arrow (which by the Middle Ages, just before gunpowder was introduced to the West, had effective armor-piercing warheads), the sling used by David to slay Goliath.... ...or the jawbone of an ass. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #20 November 13, 2004 QuoteTeaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. This is a laughably false assertion, and I would really dearly like to know what you think you are basing it on. Research? A study of some sort? Your own gut feeling?... Nothing solid, I can assure you of that. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #21 November 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteTeaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. This is a laughably false assertion, and I would really dearly like to know what you think you are basing it on. Research? A study of some sort? Your own gut feeling?... Nothing solid, I can assure you of that. -Jeffrey The statement is based on my personal experience and experience of a few Texan friends on mine who owe guns and practice shooting a LOT. I used to be member of shooting club in Texas where I had a chance to watch hundreds of gun owners practicing with their own weapons. My opinion is that most of them would not be able to use their weapons effectively in a case of real danger. Believe me, knowing how to aim towards the target and pool the trigger is NOT enough. This is my personal opinion. It is based on very extensive military training and experience with to many different kinds of weapons to list here. However, if you know better and wish to educate me, I am ready to listen closely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #22 November 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteTeaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. This is a laughably false assertion, and I would really dearly like to know what you think you are basing it on. Research? A study of some sort? Your own gut feeling?... Nothing solid, I can assure you of that. -Jeffrey The statement is based on my personal experience and experience of a few Texan friends on mine who owe guns and practice shooting a LOT. I used to be member of shooting club in Texas where I had a chance to watch hundreds of gun owners practicing with their own weapons. My opinion is that most of them would not be able to use their weapons effectively in a case of real danger. Believe me, knowing how to aim towards the target and pool the trigger is NOT enough. This is my personal opinion. It is based on very extensive military training and experience with to many different kinds of weapons to list here. However, if you know better and wish to educate me, I am ready to listen closely. Rather than depend on me for an authoritative finding, why don't we throw the question open? Please respond, readers, to the statement: "The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. Agree Disagree I myself disagree. I have not observed hundreds and hundreds of shooters, true, but I've observed some here and there, and for the most part they seem competent enough to keep all of their lead going downrange; to not shoot themselves or others accidentally; to not damage their firearms or the facilities in which they are shooting; et cetera. Not everyone is out there practicing to be able to engage an armed adversary, either. What is the standard of "using the weapons efficiently"? I know I'm not a quick-draw, and I have not taken any tactical classes. I recognize and accept the FACT that what I think about now, and what I may do if I find myself in a critical situation, may be two very different things. (That can be true even of people who have taken high-priced tactical training classes, too, btw.) I believe in the adage that, "You will do whatever you trained repeatedly to do, when confronted with an emergency -- and you won't do it nearly as well." -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #23 November 14, 2004 QuoteThe vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. What PJ said. Anyway, who's talking about "Efficient" usage. Surely it's "Safe and Responsible" usage we're talking about here. Are the overwhelming majority of legal gun owners responsible and competent? Sane and safe? HELL YES!!!! Mike. Edited to add an example: Me & PJ have disagreed very violently on a number of issues... But I KNOW that if I stood in front of him he wouldn't shoot me. (Err... You wouldn't? Would you? PJ? Mate?). Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #24 November 15, 2004 QuoteEdited to add an example: Me & PJ have disagreed very violently on a number of issues... But I KNOW that if I stood in front of him he wouldn't shoot me. (Err... You wouldn't? Would you? PJ? Mate?). I do not feel I know you well enough at this point to be able to "efficiently" answer this question. How good are you at pissing a dude off? Are you all tattooed and menacing-looking? Do you skulk about in dark clothes in the middle of the night? Do you carry wallets, cellular phones, or other items in your hand regularly that might be mistaken for a weapon? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #25 November 15, 2004 QuoteI do not feel I know you well enough at this point to be able to "efficiently" answer this question. How good are you at pissing a dude off? Are you all tattooed and menacing-looking? Do you skulk about in dark clothes in the middle of the night? Do you carry wallets, cellular phones, or other items in your hand regularly that might be mistaken for a weapon? Naah... This is getting grossly unfair!! I'M A COP!!!!!!!! It's my job to piss dudes off! I'm supposed to look menacing!! I'm paid to go about in the middle of the night!!! My uniform is almost all black!!!! Notebook! Cellphone! Radio! Baton! CS spray! Handcuffs! This is enough to give a man of my advancing years high blood pressure & stress!!!!! Then again... Perhaps I should then be grateful to PJ for shooting me if only to fix my high blood pressure caused by the stress of him going to shoot me... Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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billvon 3,058 #7 November 12, 2004 >By bashing their enemy's skulls with clubs and stones. Actually, we've found plenty of ancient societies riddled with people with bashed in skulls. The ones who survived were the ones who learned to not do that - at least, not do it all the time. We're still learning, but I have hopes that one day we'll figure it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #8 November 13, 2004 QuoteActually, we've found plenty of ancient societies riddled with people with bashed in skulls. The ones who survived were the ones who learned to not do that - at least, not do it all the time. We're still learning, but I have hopes that one day we'll figure it out. And the societies where no one at all bashed their enemies heads... well they never had the chance to propagate, either. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #9 November 13, 2004 Quote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. We did, but we had a need. Eventually, our technological advancement gave us gunpowder. We then figured out how to use it to propel some lead, thus filling a human need for which nature did not provide. A most excellent discovery! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,099 #10 November 13, 2004 QuoteQuote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. We did, but we had a need. Eventually, our technological advancement gave us gunpowder. We then figured out how to use it to propel some lead, thus filling a human need for which nature did not provide. A most excellent discovery! Yes, but what about all the boys deprived of the benefits of playing with toy guns because guns hadn't been invented yet. They must have grown up psychologically scarred beyond description.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #11 November 13, 2004 QuoteBoys continued to play behind the backs of staff, even when they had been told it was wrong. Even when the plastic guns and swords were taken away, they did what generations of boys have done before. Pieces of wood, tennis rackets and even pens and crayons, all became guns, swords, and daggers in the fertile young imagination. I agree, a boy's young and fertile imagination WILL see what it wants to see in an object. I remember doing exactly what they say here, making everyday objects into swords and guns, and loving it. I was not prohibited by my parents or anyone else from playing with actual toy guns, or even BB guns, though. And I've grown into a non-violent person who has never been in trouble with the law, who has respect for the lives of those around me. Go figure. QuoteHolland said of the war games: "It is very much part of them making sense of the world. It relates to timeless themes of the struggle between good and evil." Hear hear. Exactly. This (learning to deal with right and wrong and the relationship between the two) cannot and should not be socially engineered out of our children. Quote"When I was younger we always played Cowboys and Indians and sometimes just used our fingers as guns. We all turned out pretty normal, at least to my mind." Some of these zero-tolerance schmucks have actually expelled kids from school for doing this... but it's the "gun culture" people who are fucked up?? QuoteHowever, the father of one of the victims of Dunblane, Charlie Clydesdale, was less enthusiastic about children playing with toy guns. First mistake: asking someone who has been irrevocably emotionally traumatized by this issue to comment on this very issue. Like you're going to get a reasoned response?! QuoteRecent advances in technology mean that toy guns have become increasingly realistic. WTF?!?!! What the hell has been newly invented that makes toy guns look any more like real guns than they have for decades? QuoteGill Marshall-Andrews, the Chair of the Gun Control Network, added: "Worldwide, guns cause countless deaths, even some of the most notorious recent mass killings have all been perpetrated by people using guns which they held legally. We don’t want to encourage more interest in guns." Really. Is that so? Because the recent mass killings that come to my mind are the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing; the 9/11 World Trade Center crashes; the terrorist takeover of a school in Russia; the train station bombing in Spain; and numerous suicide bombings in Iraq and Israel. These mass killings had nothing to do with guns (with the possible exception of the Russia thing, but most of the killing was done with bombs). So who is this ignorant gun control asshole who is telling us that "guns cause countless deaths"? For one thing, it's people causing the deaths. For another, HE CANNOT DEMONSTRATE FOR ONE MICROSECOND THAT GUNS HAVE BEEN USED MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN BOMBS AND JET PLANES TO KILL PEOPLE. You want to do a mass killing, and you want the highest body count possible, you do NOT use a gun, you use fire or bombs or impact. Some dude faces 10 manslaughter counts because he drove through an open-air market in California. No gun involved: ten people dead. These anti-gun types are intellectually bankrupt. You'd think they could manage to make their absurd claims even partly credible... -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #12 November 13, 2004 Quote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. Wow. I wonder how the human species was able to kill each other before guns were invented. Anti-gunners pretend as though murder is not possible without a firearm. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #13 November 13, 2004 QuoteS'gian-Dubhs, longbows,out of tune bagpipes and the dreaded frozen haggis toss Och no, it wisnae ever the frozen haggis toss that'd hae yon sassenachs a rinnin' awa' wi the rinnin doon the legs... it wis the threat o' ane o' Mither McKelvie's haggis bustin near them. Mike. PS: Hi Jeffrey, "WTF?!?!! What the hell has been newly invented that makes toy guns look any more like real guns than they have for decades?" Dare I say.... The Media? It's not a technological advance per se. But we HAVE moved from the time when "entertainment" was in the style of a John Ford Western, or an Ealing Film, Where the general morality was that evil does not prevail to things like Pulp Fiction and Reservoir dogs, etc... Where violence is in some way cool. So, perversely, those very people who'd tell us that "Bush is Bad", seem to lose their principles when it comes to playing a part that glorifies evil allowing it to triumph or at least survive. More realistic, but less moral. The news media has also moved from print and limited outside broadcast, to the ability to flash the uncut and grisly scenes around the world in seconds. So yeah, guns ARE more realistic at least in part because everyone is far more aware of what various guns look like! Personally, the only media I've seen recently where guns were prominent but the morality was good was a TV Series called "Firefly".... Which was axed!! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #14 November 13, 2004 but, but, guns kill people... there can't have been murders without guns, right?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #15 November 13, 2004 QuoteThey must have grown up psychologically scarred beyond description. Exactly! The end result of it? Guns are invented. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,058 #16 November 13, 2004 >And the societies where no one at all bashed their enemies heads... >well they never had the chance to propagate, either. Au contraire! Sweden is alive and kicking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #17 November 13, 2004 Quote Illegal gun - Street crimes = 74% Drug use = 41% Gun crimes = 21% No gun - Street crimes = 24% Drug use = 15% Gun crimes = 1% Legal Gun - Street crimes = 14% Drug use = 13% Gun crimes = 0% I was always wondering where do illegal weapons come from and is there any relationship between the numbers of manufactured weapons meant to be "legal" and numbers of "illegal weapons" on streets? Teaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #18 November 13, 2004 Quote >And the societies where no one at all bashed their enemies heads... >well they never had the chance to propagate, either. Au contraire! Sweden is alive and kicking. Sweden Norway Denmark unification war, circa 1520 Sweden in the Thrity Years war, circa 1630 Swedish War on Bremen, circa 1650 Attacked by Russia, Poland, Denmrk, 1700 Autria Russia Sweden war, circa 1800 and that's just what I thought of in my first search. You were saying, Bill?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #19 November 13, 2004 Quote Wow. I wonder how the human species survived for the millennia before guns were invented. They used other missile- or projectile-based weapons, such as the bow and arrow (which by the Middle Ages, just before gunpowder was introduced to the West, had effective armor-piercing warheads), the sling used by David to slay Goliath.... ...or the jawbone of an ass. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #20 November 13, 2004 QuoteTeaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. This is a laughably false assertion, and I would really dearly like to know what you think you are basing it on. Research? A study of some sort? Your own gut feeling?... Nothing solid, I can assure you of that. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #21 November 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteTeaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. This is a laughably false assertion, and I would really dearly like to know what you think you are basing it on. Research? A study of some sort? Your own gut feeling?... Nothing solid, I can assure you of that. -Jeffrey The statement is based on my personal experience and experience of a few Texan friends on mine who owe guns and practice shooting a LOT. I used to be member of shooting club in Texas where I had a chance to watch hundreds of gun owners practicing with their own weapons. My opinion is that most of them would not be able to use their weapons effectively in a case of real danger. Believe me, knowing how to aim towards the target and pool the trigger is NOT enough. This is my personal opinion. It is based on very extensive military training and experience with to many different kinds of weapons to list here. However, if you know better and wish to educate me, I am ready to listen closely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #22 November 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteTeaching boys how to shoot is a good idea, but I have a little problem with that. The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. This is a laughably false assertion, and I would really dearly like to know what you think you are basing it on. Research? A study of some sort? Your own gut feeling?... Nothing solid, I can assure you of that. -Jeffrey The statement is based on my personal experience and experience of a few Texan friends on mine who owe guns and practice shooting a LOT. I used to be member of shooting club in Texas where I had a chance to watch hundreds of gun owners practicing with their own weapons. My opinion is that most of them would not be able to use their weapons effectively in a case of real danger. Believe me, knowing how to aim towards the target and pool the trigger is NOT enough. This is my personal opinion. It is based on very extensive military training and experience with to many different kinds of weapons to list here. However, if you know better and wish to educate me, I am ready to listen closely. Rather than depend on me for an authoritative finding, why don't we throw the question open? Please respond, readers, to the statement: "The vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. Agree Disagree I myself disagree. I have not observed hundreds and hundreds of shooters, true, but I've observed some here and there, and for the most part they seem competent enough to keep all of their lead going downrange; to not shoot themselves or others accidentally; to not damage their firearms or the facilities in which they are shooting; et cetera. Not everyone is out there practicing to be able to engage an armed adversary, either. What is the standard of "using the weapons efficiently"? I know I'm not a quick-draw, and I have not taken any tactical classes. I recognize and accept the FACT that what I think about now, and what I may do if I find myself in a critical situation, may be two very different things. (That can be true even of people who have taken high-priced tactical training classes, too, btw.) I believe in the adage that, "You will do whatever you trained repeatedly to do, when confronted with an emergency -- and you won't do it nearly as well." -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #23 November 14, 2004 QuoteThe vast majority of legal gun owners themselves are not skilled enough to use the weapons efficiently. What PJ said. Anyway, who's talking about "Efficient" usage. Surely it's "Safe and Responsible" usage we're talking about here. Are the overwhelming majority of legal gun owners responsible and competent? Sane and safe? HELL YES!!!! Mike. Edited to add an example: Me & PJ have disagreed very violently on a number of issues... But I KNOW that if I stood in front of him he wouldn't shoot me. (Err... You wouldn't? Would you? PJ? Mate?). Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #24 November 15, 2004 QuoteEdited to add an example: Me & PJ have disagreed very violently on a number of issues... But I KNOW that if I stood in front of him he wouldn't shoot me. (Err... You wouldn't? Would you? PJ? Mate?). I do not feel I know you well enough at this point to be able to "efficiently" answer this question. How good are you at pissing a dude off? Are you all tattooed and menacing-looking? Do you skulk about in dark clothes in the middle of the night? Do you carry wallets, cellular phones, or other items in your hand regularly that might be mistaken for a weapon? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #25 November 15, 2004 QuoteI do not feel I know you well enough at this point to be able to "efficiently" answer this question. How good are you at pissing a dude off? Are you all tattooed and menacing-looking? Do you skulk about in dark clothes in the middle of the night? Do you carry wallets, cellular phones, or other items in your hand regularly that might be mistaken for a weapon? Naah... This is getting grossly unfair!! I'M A COP!!!!!!!! It's my job to piss dudes off! I'm supposed to look menacing!! I'm paid to go about in the middle of the night!!! My uniform is almost all black!!!! Notebook! Cellphone! Radio! Baton! CS spray! Handcuffs! This is enough to give a man of my advancing years high blood pressure & stress!!!!! Then again... Perhaps I should then be grateful to PJ for shooting me if only to fix my high blood pressure caused by the stress of him going to shoot me... Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
