Iran agrees to suspend uranium enrichment

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

I thought Iran was the big success story. the invasion of Iraq and utter dominance from the US had shown nations in that areaq to better listen or else. Ghadaffi was hailed after his decision etc etc.

The difference with Libya is that they approached the UK, bypassing the UN completely, allowed the US into the secret negotiations and is completely dismantling its weapons programs. The UK, US and IAEA will all get their own verification. In exchange, Libya has requested that it be able to rejoin the global community (which is happening incrementally).

Iran is simply saying they will no longer enrich uranium. How much have they processed already? Enough for what -- a 4KT, 20KT, 1MT device?

Iran has literally put some of its infrastructure underground. Why does anyone hide anything from view ever? Concealment is rarely created with benevolent intentions.

Oh, no need to worry about Iran. They have proven themselves to be trusted members of the world community many many times. If they are putting their nuke labs underground, I'm sure its just to protect its people and the world against accidental exposure. Nothing to see here, move along.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"So, lets assume for a second I am right"

Well, they have a long way to go from enriching uranium to actually producing a serious clear and present danger. The way will be made all the more difficult, to perform shenanigans whilst under close international scrutiny is no mean feat. Its not just enriching uranium, they then have to develop a delivery system for the weapon.

I reckon your prediction may be feasible, but the timescale is a little gloomy.

I predict that by the time Iran's nuclear programme presents a realistic threat to world peace, Dubbya won't be in office.

"What would you suggest the next step be?"

Carpet bomb the fuckers, glass parking lot is what they need.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Its not just enriching uranium, they then have to develop a delivery system for the weapon.

I reckon your prediction may be feasible, but the timescale is a little gloomy.

... ... ... ...

"What would you suggest the next step be?"

Carpet bomb the fuckers, glass parking lot is what they need.

Iran already has a likely delivery system - they have missile technology from DPRK and for them, it could be as easy as loading something on a truck and driving it somewhere.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jdhill 0]

Quote

Why does anyone hide anything from view ever? Concealment is rarely created with benevolent intentions

Maybe they remember Israel's bombing of Iraq's reactor back in '81. Or they may be trying to hide something...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Iran already has a likely delivery system"

First I've heard, what is the name of the system, or the range & payload etc, any links? just so I can go look for it.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

Why does anyone hide anything from view ever? Concealment is rarely created with benevolent intentions

Maybe they remember Israel's bombing of Iraq's reactor back in '81. Or they may be trying to hide something...

Strong point in either case. However, their doctrine is flawed. This country is sitting on enough oil where they wouldn't have to concentrate on nuclear power (their stated reason for having so many plants) for a couple hundred years at least.

Nevermind that if they didn't build so many of these things, bury them (we know where they are) they wouldn't be at risk in the first place. As soon as they announce or test anything resembling a nuclear weapon, Israel isn't their only concern. Don't expect Pakistan (to their east) to sit back and accept another nuclear neighbor (they have their hands full with India and Afghanistan). Some of the other former Soviet republics to the north will not want that either (lest there be a dotted line risk developed in Chechnya).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

"So, lets assume for a second I am right"

Well, they have a long way to go from enriching uranium to actually producing a serious clear and present danger. The way will be made all the more difficult, to perform shenanigans whilst under close international scrutiny is no mean feat. Its not just enriching uranium, they then have to develop a delivery system for the weapon.

I reckon your prediction may be feasible, but the timescale is a little gloomy.

I predict that by the time Iran's nuclear programme presents a realistic threat to world peace, Dubbya won't be in office.

"What would you suggest the next step be?"

Carpet bomb the fuckers, glass parking lot is what they need.

My prediction was only that in a year we will find that Iran has continued to develop its nukes in violation of the current agreement. I'm not advocating we bomb them, but whatever we would do once this agreement is breached should be done now before they get any closer to developing a nuclear weapon. I also doubt they are dumb enough to directly attack the US because they know what the consequences would be. But then again there's Hammas.....

[jdhill 0]

Quote

This country is sitting on enough oil where they wouldn't have to concentrate on nuclear power (their stated reason for having so many plants) for a couple hundred years at least.

Oil is their only export, is the only thing that gives them status on the world stage (except terrorism and islamic extremism)... why use it when people will buy it from you at $50/barrel... or maybe they are just thinking green... or maybe they are trying to build a bomb... Their suspension is a good thing, if it is real... the only way the world is going to know that is to have some sort of verification on an ongoing basis (since there is no reason to take them at their word).

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Botellines 0]

How much oil is there in Iran?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

"Iran already has a likely delivery system"

First I've heard, what is the name of the system, or the range & payload etc, any links? just so I can go look for it.

Here's a good source. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/index.html

They do not note if they are dedicated delivery platforms for nuclear payload, but several of these systems could handle the weight I think (especially the designed based off of former Soviet SS-4/SS-5 systems).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Well, they have promised to behave. I guess we both doubt their sincerity, but they will be being watched, quite closely, and by more than one body.

I guess that if they are in breach of their promise, we will need some serious evidence of the departure from agreed activities. I don't think anyone will do anything unless there is clear evidence tabled. The world is probably a bit more fussy over the accuracy of intel after recent events.
Although, as Josh points out, Israel may not be so restrained, and could potentially act independently from the rest of us. I reckon they are too busy solving more immediate local issues to get into that area though.

Sorry about that carpet bomb statement, the whole thread had an air of Deja Vu.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

How much oil is there in Iran?

Which is exactly why one has to wonder if their pursuit of nuclear power is sincere and how corrupt the UN is. I think we all know the answer to both questions.

edited to add: It should also be noted this agreement to suspend enrichment is only temporary.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Here's a good source."

Cheers.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Gawain 0]

Just to throw some more gasoline on the fire:
from: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/facility/esfahan.htm

Quote

The Nuclear Technology/Research Center in Esfahan is Iran's largest nuclear research center, and is said to employ as many as 3,000 scientists. Iran signed an agreement France in 1975 to build a nuclear research center in Isfahan, to provide training for personnel to operate the Bushehr reactor, located at the University of Isfahan. As of 1977 Iran reportedly planned to have at least one reactor and a small French-built fuel reprocessing facility in Isfahan by 1980.

The Bushehr reactors where built by Germany (Siemens with Govt. support) between 1981-1989.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Darius11 12]

I have to laugh.

So let me get this straight the United States has no secret labs to develop weapons of mass destruction.
Oh yea and we didn’t just invade a country under false pretense.
They say the best way to lead is by example and we are doing a great job of that.

Lets not forget what country has had more wars then Iran, and any other country i can remember in the last 50 years. Yea they hate us because we are free yea ok thats it We tend to kill lots of people every 10 years. Please don’t tell me about what Iran can do. I think the whole planet is afraid of what Bush and his fellow Glass parking lot friends will do.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Gawain 0]

Quote

I have to laugh.

So let me get this straight the United States has no secret labs to develop weapons of mass destruction.

The United States weapons facilities are pretty well marked and known. Chemical weapons depots in Oregon and Alabama. Our primary nuclear facilities in Washington, Arizona, New Mexico, Georgia and Tennessee. The technology we use is secret, but it is not a secret that we are developing and evolving our weapons systems.

Quote

Lets not forget what country has had more wars then Iran, and any other country i can remember in the last 50 years. Yea they hate us because we are free yea ok thats it We tend to kill lots of people every 10 years. Please don’t tell me about what Iran can do. I think the whole planet is afraid of what Bush and his fellow Glass parking lot friends will do.

Which country are you talking about? The USA. Oh yeah, we should've just stood by in WWI, WWII, Korea, Libya, Grenada, Kuwait to name a few.

You'll be surprised to learn that US policy on the use of nuclear weapons has been essentially unchanged for the past 50 years (that covers more than your distaste for President Bush).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

I have to laugh.

So let me get this straight the United States has no secret labs to develop weapons of mass destruction.

Can you explain to me where the US is in violation of any agreement? No? I thought not.

Quote

Oh yea and we didn’t just invade a country under false pretense.

Need a stick to keep beating that horse with?

Quote

They say the best way to lead is by example and we are doing a great job of that.

Perhaps we should lead by the example of the corrupt UN and just be satisfied to accept kick backs and bribes. Or perhaps we should just go ahead and allow nuclear proliferation because all the intelligence agencies in the world made an error. Would that satisfy you?

Quote

Lets not forget what country has had more wars then Iran, and any other country i can remember in the last 50 years.

And lets not forget why those wars were fought as much as some of the left-wing nut jobs would like to ignore those reasons.

Quote

Yea they hate us because we are free yea ok thats it We tend to kill lots of people every 10 years. Please don’t tell me about what Iran can do. I think the whole planet is afraid of what Bush and his fellow Glass parking lot friends will do.

This last comment is so ignorant, it doesn't even merit a response.

[Darius11 12]

Which country are you talking about? The USA. Oh yeah, we should've just stood by in WWI, WWII***

2005- 50years = 1955 I had no idea WWI and II were fought in the 50s I must have my facts WRONG AGAIN.


Comeon man do you really believe we have no secret labs. You acutely think every lab we have working on WMD or some new weapon is on a map.
Wow I have to laugh again it is just been a funny day.


For the stuff that we don't hide I think the main reason we don't hide that information is we don't have a strong country siting on our border ready to deploy troops. As a matter of fact we are the only ones making threats that we carry out.
I really don't see other people threatening to turn a country to a glass parking lot.
Maybe if we stop threatening every one that doesn’t follow OUR rules we might make some friends.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Can you explain to me where the US is in violation of any agreement? No? I thought not.

Can you explain to me why the US wants a double standard for everyone else? We can build but we don't want anyone else to? Last I checked, we were the last country to use a nuke for more than just testing. Speaking of testing, we are about to resume underground testing in Utah, and start testing scramjet technology on missles and bunker busters.

Quote

Oh yea and we didn’t just invade a country under false pretense.

Quote

Need a stick to keep beating that horse with?

Ah, I see - we should drop it because it annoys you? It's a fact and one that should never be forgotten or else it will happen again. On top of that you are using past aggressions as examples of why we should not trust Iran. So, we should be forgiven of our past mistakes but Iran and the rest of the world cannot?

Quote

Perhaps we should lead by the example of the corrupt UN and just be satisfied to accept kick backs and bribes.

Because the US has been a shining star of how to run a country. Iran Contra maybe? Watergate, Clinton BJ and his lies, etc. Then there is the fact that we can't even take care of our own country on social security, the environment, energy solutions, the budget, the deficit, etc. But I'm sure we could spread ourselves a bit more thin and run a few more countries into the ground.

Quote

Or perhaps we should just go ahead and allow nuclear proliferation because all the intelligence agencies in the world made an error. Would that satisfy you?

You mean like the intelligence that helped us invade Iraq? Do you think that diplomacy is a waste of time and we should just bomb today? There are two possible scenarios: 1) Iran is telling the truth or 2) Iran is telling a big lie to buy time to either produce a weapon to attack or to buy more leverage in negotiations. We have to give them the benefit of the doubt and allow the negotiations to take their course, then the world would have reasons to take action against them.

Do you really think we can afford the money, equipment or people for another front to the war in the middle east? We can't even get Iraq under control or keep the green zone free of attacks. By default we need to try to make negotiations work. Your jingoistic, warmonger messages are almost as scary as any other extremists.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Darius11 12]

Need a stick to keep beating that horse with?

Quote

The dead horse LOL oh yea I wish I could let things go like the republicans. LOLOLOL

Do you even see the other posts made here or are you in republican denial?

Here I should make one T-shirt for Bush with dead bodies every where saying Oooooooopppsss sorry kid your dad is dead now let me go to my ranch I need to relax.
Beating a dead horse that horse is still killing people and is not dead yet. When are boys come home to there families and we stop killing Iraqis that’s when I’ll consider that horse dead. So know for a fact I will point that out when ever possible.

Perhaps we should lead by the example of the corrupt UN and just be satisfied to accept kick backs and bribes. Or perhaps we should just go ahead and allow nuclear proliferation because all the intelligence agencies in the world made an error. Would that satisfy you?

Quote

We are the most powerful nation in the world. We can make a difference, therefor we have more responsibilities. We should not jump to war. I don’t think even from the beginning I have ever said any thing against the War in Afghanistan. There is such a thing as going to war for the right reasons I understand that but we have been making mistakes. We have the power to make the world a better place not just to make us richer but better for every one. I just think there is abetter way to deal with things then war.

This last comment is so ignorant, it doesn't even merit a response.

Quote

WOW let me ask you this.
Is saying lets turn a country to a glass parking lot an ignorant comment?
How about calling people towel heads?
Unfortunately there is a lot of ignorance here. One of the biggest being that people hate us because we are free. They don’t hate us because we are free, they hate us for every thing we have done to make are self richer. They hate us that we supply wars and support both sides just to make money as we watch a million people die. If you don’t know what I am talking about go back to the 80s and remember a time where Sadam was your best friend. If we cared about human lifes as much as money we would be loved by the world. But hey i want my new H2 right

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

• Quote

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Quote

Not sure it's a very reliable source, but try this one

The question was about ones ability to abide by an agreement. The US has never ratified the Kyoto Agreement, therefore has no obligation to abide by it. If you want to rehash all the pros and cons, the I;d suggest you start another thread on its merits.

Ok, how about START then?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Which country are you talking about? The USA. Oh yeah, we should've just stood by in WWI, WWII***

2005- 50years = 1955 I had no idea WWI and II were fought in the 50s I must have my facts WRONG AGAIN.


Comeon man do you really believe we have no secret labs. You acutely think every lab we have working on WMD or some new weapon is on a map.
Wow I have to laugh again it is just been a funny day.


For the stuff that we don't hide I think the main reason we don't hide that information is we don't have a strong country siting on our border ready to deploy troops. As a matter of fact we are the only ones making threats that we carry out.
I really don't see other people threatening to turn a country to a glass parking lot.
Maybe if we stop threatening every one that doesn’t follow OUR rules we might make some friends.

I didn't say we didn't have secret bases, I am saying it is no secret we are developing and evolving our weapons systems. We are developing warheads that can penetrate te ground, etc.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Ok, how about START then?

What about START? G.H.W. Bush and Gorbechev signed it in 1991 (START I), it was ratified by the Senate in 7/92. In December 2001, the US and Russia announced they had met the provisions of START I, the largest nuclear arsenal reduction in history (30-35%).

START II was signed by G.H.W. Bush and Yeltsin in January 1993. It was ratified by the Senate in January 1996.

The US has, in fact, cut its nuclear arsenal below the levels permitted by START I (below 6,000 nuclear devices).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

The US has, in fact, cut its nuclear arsenal below the levels permitted by START I

How about START II?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

The US has, in fact, cut its nuclear arsenal below the levels permitted by START I

How about START II?

The "compliance" deadline is in 2007. START II has been implemented, but is not "in force" if I understand the protocols correctly. There are several phases to the treaty. www.fas.org has extensive information about both treaties (which is where I am getting my information).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!