I wonder how much we don’t see.

[captain1 0]

[I think that pretty much shows that U.S marine cowardice and that he is guilty of murder.]

Come on Botellines. You know better than to say something like that. You do not know what the boy has seen, done and experienced in the last few days proceeding up to the incident. Fear, Adrenaline, hate and survival pumping through your blood. How would you know? Have you been there? War is hell.

[Botellines 0]

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[I think that pretty much shows that U.S marine cowardice and that he is guilty of murder.]

Come on Botellines. You know better than to say something like that. You do not know what the boy has seen, done and experienced in the last few days proceeding up to the incident. Fear, Adrenaline, hate and survival pumping through your blood. How would you know? Have you been there? War is hell.

Yeah, you are right, i don´t know what that guy had gone through previously and thank God, i can take your word and not know personally that war is hell. Maybe, this guy is not to be blamed alone for what happened, maybe he should share the responsability with whoever put him in that situation in first place. I am not oblivious to the struggle that guy must have gone through, both beforehand and afterhand.
Just for the record, and it pains me to agree with pajarito , the video doesn´t always reflects everything and certainly not the psichological background of that marine (it seemed a comrade fell the day before). However what troubles me the most, is what is clearly on the video.

He is faking death,
He is faking death,
BANG
Well, now he is death.

It looks like it comes from a Rambo or Arnold S. movie. It does sound so unprofessional that it is hard to believe that the marine really felt that he HAD to do it.

Probably we will never know if i was to harsh in my judgement for we will never know what really went inside his head, but after the final joke, i am not willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

[captain1 0]

Oh well, those were wounded insurgents left behind in a holy place where their comrades conduct warfare. The marine made a bad, rash decision on camera but if we hang him we might as well start giving out speeding tickets at the Daytona 500.

[pajarito 0]

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>but the New Testament speaks against an eye for an eye and preaches forgiveness.

. . . . and uses an instrument of torture and execution as its symbol. If you are looking for the good in any religion you'll find it; if you're looking for the bad you'll find that too.

Huh?... I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. Are you implying that Christianity advocates crucifixion because its adopted symbol is the cross? Or did they pick that symbol in order to scare people into their fold due to the harshness and cruelty of the punishment? No, Bill, I believe it symbolizes the death of Christ and the ransom paid for your soul. It represents hope. I also don’t think that’s just me looking for the good in it. You crack me up.

[Zenister 0]

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Also consider the terrorists this army is referring to are fighting this invading army.

How many Iraqis support this Terrorist army?

All of them? Half of them? The majority?

.

He's right I ran into very few people that didn't appreciate me being in their country. It just doesn't look that way because the pissed off iraqis make the better news stories. God forbid any news story would ever talk about acts of bravery and the incredible things that men and women have done over their and how much it is appreciated. that wouldn't be cool

bah... did you take a census? talk to each one and note their sincerity? Studied much about Islam or tribal relations? here's a hypothetical for you.... what if the majority of Iragis voted for Saddam in the coming elections???? not likely to happen mind you, but do you REALLY believe the next 'elected' leader of Iraq will be supported by a majority of the people???

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raise your hand if you've had an iraqi try and kill you. My hand is raised, anyone else

raises hand

but that doesnt give me a right to shoot the next Iraqi I meet who ISNT shooting at me....

the Marines were investigating this instance before the tape was released... the tape looks pretty bad for him without some very extenuating circumstances not shown.... it is also damn fine recruiting tool for future insurgents and terrorists alike...

are we creating them faster than we are killing them?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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Storm77,

Can you just clarify that last statement? you quoted me and someone else.

Are you saying they 'are' terrorists, or they 'are not' terrorists?

What I was saying is:
The people refered to as insurgents are technically the people who infitrated the country from outside of Iraq.

uh no... It would be lovely if everyone (most notably, the Media) could use the actual words instead of using them to create Labels.

none of what you describe is a 'terrorist' act.. it is simply what we call 'unlawful' warfare.

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in·sur·gent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-sûrjnt)
adj.
Rising in revolt against established authority, especially a government.
Rebelling against the leadership of a political party.

n.
One who is insurgent.

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[Latin nsurgns, nsurgent- present participle of nsurgere, to rise up : in-, intensive pref.; see in-2 + surgere, to rise; see surge.]
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in·surgent·ly adv.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Main Entry: in·sur·gent
Pronunciation: in-'s&r-j&nt
Function: noun
1 : a person who rises in revolt against civil authority or an established government; especially : one not recognized as a belligerent
2 : one that acts contrary to the established leadership (as of a political party, union, or corporation) or its decisions and policies

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: insurgent
Function: adjective
: rising in opposition to civil or political authority or against an established government

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

insurgent

\In*sur"gent\, a. [L. insurgens, p. pr. of insurgere to rise up; pref. in- in + surgere to rise. See Surge.] Rising in opposition to civil or political authority, or against an established government; insubordinate; rebellious. ``The insurgent provinces.'' --Motley.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

insurgent

\In*sur"gent\, n. [Cf. F. insurgent.] A person who rises in revolt against civil authority or an established government; one who openly and actively resists the execution of laws; a rebel.

Syn: See Rebel.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

insurgent

adj : in opposition to a civil authority or government [syn: seditious, subversive] n 1: a person who takes part in an armed rebellion against the constituted authority (especially in the hope of improving conditions) [syn: insurrectionist, freedom fighter, rebel] 2: a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment [syn: guerrilla, guerilla, irregular]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

vs a Terrorist

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ter·ror·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trr-st)
n.
One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

adj.
Of or relating to terrorism.

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terror·istic adj.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

terrorist

\Ter"ror*ist\, n. [F. terroriste.] One who governs by terrorism or intimidation; specifically, an agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France. --Burke.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

terrorist

adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

'terrorists tactics' are largely ineffectual in war they have little real influence or military affect on the opposing force or the objectives it occupies...

Terrorism is a political weapon... so is Warfare.

as the United States has no peer or even near-peer in military affairs at the moment, which method would you expect an intelligent enemy to employ?

the majority of the people currently fighting against us are Iragi's, fighting a military force several generations superior to them in training and technology and effective numbers in any given engagement.

as we MUST care about the world’s opinion (and particularly the Arab World’s opinion.. how many more generations of terrorists do we want to create??) of us.

We are forced to obey the "Rules of Warfare" and the disadvantages created by doing so... there are many reasons for doing this including the ability to maintain the 'moral high ground'. ‘Lawful combat’ also protects our soldiers when captured (not just in this conflict but in future conflicts as well) and protects us from our soldiers... there are some methods of warfare to terrible to employ because of the kinds of soldiers they create.....those who are willing to do whatever is necessary with no regard to 'right or wrong' but who instead weigh Everything from a position of military necessity.....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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the tape looks pretty bad for him without some very extenuating circumstances not shown.... it is also damn fine recruiting tool for future insurgents and terrorists alike...

Agreed. It does look bad for the Marine.

Looked bad for the insurgent too.

[Zenister 0]

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What does that have to do with Christian Fundamentalists? My observations have been that they are some of the least Christian people out there.

Maybe "fundamentalist" is an inappropriate term to be used in the negative context in the instances of yours and his posts. I know the big catch word today is Islamic fundamentalist and it has a negative connotation, however, fundamentalism as it relates to Christianity should not be. Christianity at its “fundamental”

a 'fundamentalist' in ANY religion is one who attempts to impose the beliefs of that religion in a fundamental manner to all life. Yours, mine, all the Aussies in the other hemisphere, EVERYONE... it has nothing to do with the elements of the belief system and everything to do with the willingness of that s portion of any religion who believes they have the Divine Right to forcibly impose their belief system on others.

'Fundamentalist' is and has always been a negative term no matter what religion it is applied to.

unfortunately for the rest of the world, and for us....our current president is a fundamentalist.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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a 'fundamentalist' in ANY religion is one who attempts to impose the beliefs of that religion in a fundamental manner to all life. Yours, mine, all the Aussies in the other hemisphere, EVERYONE... it has nothing to do with the elements of the belief system and everything to do with the willingness of that s portion of any religion who believes they have the Divine Right to forcibly impose their belief system on others.

'Fundamentalist' is and has always been a negative term no matter what religion it is applied to.

unfortunately for the rest of the world, and for us....our current president is a fundamentalist.

I think that’s misuse of the language. A fundamentalist tries his/her best to adhere to and live a life according to the teachings of a religion. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. I would hope any Christian would try his/her best to be the best Christian he/she could be.

Fundamentalist – The belief in old and traditional forms of religion, or the belief that what is written in a holy book, such as the Christian Bible, is completely or mostly true.

That has nothing to do with forcing your beliefs on other peoples of the world. It has become a negative word because that’s what we’ve turned it into. It is not one necessarily.

[Zenister 0]

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I think that’s misuse of the language. A fundamentalist tries his/her best to adhere to and live a life according to the teachings of a religion. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. I would hope any Christian would try his/her best to be the best Christian he/she could be.

Fundamentalist – The belief in old and traditional forms of religion, or the belief that what is written in a holy book, such as the Christian Bible, is completely or mostly true.

That has nothing to do with forcing your beliefs on other peoples of the world. It has become a negative word because that’s what we’ve turned it into. It is not one necessarily.

You are applying your religion’s filter to the word, try to see it from the outside.. “not us, its THEM”

if you believe the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, Edda etc.. ANY religious text to be the One True way, you also believe that you have been given the Right & Duty By God (of your choice) as a True Believer to impose that belief on the heathen, infidels etc....as it is FUNDAMENTAL to the social-religious controls inherent in your dogma...

Fundamentalism is a flaw no matter what religion it applies to.....it is the inability to see that you might be mistaken....

Fundamentalist Christians are responsible for many equally horrendous acts as those currently being committed by Fundamentalist Islamists, they give a bad name to the more moderate members of ALL religions

***fun·da·men·tal·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
Adherence to the theology of this movement.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[diablopilot 2]

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rules of war last week,

This is why we're looking like the laughing stock to much of the rest of the world. We're suposed to be playing by them, while terorist organizations laugh at them....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[juanesky 0]

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It does not make it right. But insinuation of "slap on the hand", when actually military investigation-court martial is a very serious business is quite laughable.

Botellines just google up what is being done with those abusers at abu ghraib......it has been more than what you claim it was IMO......
[/Reply]

I just did and couldn´t find a link where it says that anyone has been charged for torturing and murder innocent people. I mean, in a civil lawsuit that would be somewhere beetwen 20+ years and death sentence, supposedly a military lawsuit is much severe, right? Well, can you tell me what the hardest sentence has been?
Please, do make me wrong, and tell me that there is actually someone going to be in jail for 20+ years for that.

So now you are a judge, and now the sentencing guidelines?

You couldn't find any link? Hmm, so weird, since you have some computer experience background according to your claims, but still can help you find a few.

1) clicky

2) clicky

3) Clicky

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

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[Gravitymaster 0]

Didn't John Kerry get a Silver Star for pretty much doing the same thing this Marine did?

[Frenchy68 0]

Did he?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[juanesky 0]

No, he got it from injures suffered....


He never explained what he meant with burning villages, using 50 cal machine to raid innocent civilians, burning huts, firing in no fire zones among other things.

But we will know once hell freezes over, or the shitheads win more people sympathetic to their cause. It seems they have a willing supporters among some posters in here.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Gravitymaster 0]

Patrolling the Bay Hap River, Kerry and his crew discovered they were about to be ambushed by a Viet Cong soldier who had just popped up at the shoreline with a loaded rocket launcher in his hands. With the VC about to fire, Kerry crew mate Thomas Bellodeau shot and wounded the attacker, saving the entire boat.

Only then did Kerry leap to the shore to chase the wounded enemy down - finishing him off behind a hootch.

When critics suggested that Kerry's actions that day were something less than heroic, they were hooted down by the press.

Certainly the as-yet-unnamed Marine in Fallujah deserves, if not the Silver Star, the same slack the press cut Kerry.

[Frenchy68 0]

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He never explained what he meant with burning villages, using 50 cal machine to raid innocent civilians, burning huts, firing in no fire zones among other things.

I was told he was reporting what other vets said. Is that correct?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[juanesky 0]

But hell, that would be too much to ask, right? Look how some Sunni muslims are stating that they are "outraged" about what and where it happened...Not a single mention that these shitheads decided to take positions in that mosque...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[juanesky 0]

You were told by whom? There is this film in which he makes the statement himself, you can hear him say I did this and that.

The facts still that he never explained this nor his service nor released his service record to the public.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Frenchy68 0]

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You were told by whom? There is this film in which he makes the statement himself, you can hear him say I did this and that.

But wasn't it in the context of: This man said "I did this or that"?, and that the "This man said" was edited out?
I may be wrong.

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The facts still that he never explained this nor his service nor released his service record to the public.

Well, isn't that what all politicians do?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Gravitymaster 0]

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He never explained what he meant with burning villages, using 50 cal machine to raid innocent civilians, burning huts, firing in no fire zones among other things.

I was told he was reporting what other vets said. Is that correct?

Incorrect:

***There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

-- John Kerry, on NBC's "Meet the Press" April 18, 1971

[Frenchy68 0]

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There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

OK: If indeed he did commit the above, he should have no business being CIC.And should be brought to justice. And the Marine who commited similar crimes should be held to similar standard, and be brought to justice.
I personally have an issue with people stating "the press should not be allowed to be there" and in the same breath stating "these guys are fighting to protect you and your way of life", which as far as I am concerned includes "freedom of speech", and freedon of reporting, to me, qualifies as "freedom of speech". I actually think that freedon of reporting is an essential part of Democracy (and that's why during most "coups", the local TV/Radio station is among the first buildings to be seized and controled). If reporters decide to cover the front line and get killed doing so, unfortunately, it's part of the job they decided to endorse. But keeping the press out of the front line would defeat the purpose of the intervention in the first place, IMHO.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[billvon 3,073]

> Are you implying that Christianity advocates crucifixion because
>its adopted symbol is the cross?

I don't think that. But to a muslim who sees US soldiers come into their country, see them torture and execute prisoners, and then hear "we think islam is a religion of hatred" ? They might start thinking that the cross is more than just a symbol of Christ's sacrifice. Look how many people think islam is a religion of hatred because of that 72 virgins thing.

>It represents hope.

To some it does; others might well see in christianity what Mark H sees in islam.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Why should this soldier be treated any differently than John Kerry?
We should either give him a Silver Star like Kerry got or we should bring Kerry up on charges if this soldier is brought up on charges.

[Frenchy68 0]

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Why should this soldier be treated any differently than John Kerry?
We should either give him a Silver Star like Kerry got or we should bring Kerry up on charges if this soldier is brought up on charges.

My point exactly. If Kerry did commit these crimes, by all means bring him to justice. And if he is found guilty, let him be punished as per the law. And the same should apply to this particuliar soldier. Both should be held to the same standard. Regardless if one is a GI and the other one a Senator.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."