pajarito 0 #226 November 18, 2004 Quote They said it? How can you know? Unknown to me. My Granddad was one of the ones who kicked their ass on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #227 November 18, 2004 QuoteMy Granddad was one of the ones who kicked their ass on the ground. I got two of those, plus know countless of people who fought in various resistance groups and even know some people who were on the nazi side of things. Yet, I never heard any of them talk about vulcanos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #228 November 18, 2004 A lot of grand dads around here, sureley they would know how to end this mess? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #229 November 18, 2004 >That's what the Nazi's said. "No, that's like what _you_ said." "You know, you're just like Hitler." "No, YOU'RE just like Hitler!" As Godwin claims another thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #230 November 18, 2004 Quote Is that kind of like Bill O'Reilly’s saying the marine was innocent? Yes the Marine is innocent untill proven guilty, Or is that a concept you can't understand. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #231 November 18, 2004 No he isn't. He is PRESUMED innocent. There's quite a difference. If I go out and kill my neighbor, I'm presumed innocent until convicted, but I ain't innocent. Is that a concept you can understand? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #232 November 18, 2004 QuoteIf your so knowledgeable in the rules of engagemnet why don't you join the military and make a difference. Think you could make it? too bad ignorance isnt painful.... you'd be needing a morphine drip about now...... i've made more a difference in the conduct of US military, its training, tactics and techniques, procedures and equipment as they are applied worldwide, than you can possible imagine....but go ahead and run your mouth some more and further illustrate how little discipline you seem to have acquired...... we train to standard for a reason... if you cant follow that standard and ensure you and your peers are trained to its bleeding edge, EVEN when you have to accept a tactical disadvantage to do so....then you need a new profession.... Execution, the wanton killing of an unarmed, injured enemy has never been a standard of conduct for the US military... Quoteif i thought a man was still an active threat, i feel i'd be justified in shooting him and if you 'thought' wrong, and there were witnesses to your actions then you'd be under investigation as well...i sincerely hope your not the next soldier contemplating a long term in a cell for a similar such failure of discipline and control.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #233 November 18, 2004 Or is that a concept you can't understand. Quote LOL settle down now. He is accused of allegedly committing a war crime Bill O'Reilly said after he viewed the tape he is sure that he is innocent. Where is the write in crayon button.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #234 November 18, 2004 >too bad ignorance isnt painful... Cut it out Zen. Clever insults don't get around the rules against personal attacks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #235 November 19, 2004 QuoteCut it out Zen. Clever insults don't get around the rules against personal attacks. Are you kidding? That was far from clever. It was obvious and intentional. No attempt at hiding that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #236 November 19, 2004 QuoteYes the Marine is innocent untill proven guilty, Or is that a concept you can't understand Although it seems that in combat, the "presumed innocent" principle does not apply. Guantanamo Bay is full of these "presumed innocents"... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #237 November 20, 2004 Quote>That's what the Nazi's said. "No, that's like what _you_ said." "You know, you're just like Hitler." "No, YOU'RE just like Hitler!" As Godwin claims another thread. Godwin must also claim the DNC... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #238 November 20, 2004 I think allowing reporters with combat units is a dumb fuckind idea. It promotes arm chair quarterbacks and bleeding hearts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #239 November 20, 2004 An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #240 November 20, 2004 I don't condone what happened in this case. I saw the video and from where I was sitting it looked like a case of straight forwards murder. However, thats the problem, I was sitting in my front room. I hadn't just been spending weeks on end trying to avoid being killed and the last week being told that its my job to close and kill the enemy whilst he's trying to do the same to me. in the Falklands Paras shot some Argie prisoners after Goose Green, I'm afraid shit happens in war. It doesn't make it right but when you get young men to kill in action its sometimes very hard to get them to stop at the right moment. I just wish we in the UK had known back in the 80's that it was acceptable to use arty, attack helicopters, MBTs and GPMGs in built up areas to flush out terrorists, what an opportunity we missed in Belfast. Maybe the US would have helped us close the access to the hospitals and shell the falls road with howitzers in the name of democracy and freedom from terror!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #241 November 20, 2004 Quote War as a 'spectator sport' will be the next revolution in military affairs... This concept is as old as warfare its self. During the Nepolionic wars the public used to gather on the edge of the battle fields in carriages and with picnics, all that has changed is the size of the audience.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #242 November 20, 2004 none of the men in the video appeared to have any form of firearms on them or near them.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #243 November 20, 2004 I've bitten my tongue on this for quite some time, but seeing as this is now on its tenth page... no one will probably notice what I write. There are 2 major problems surrounding this incident. The first being that this is even an issue in the media at all. Embedded reporting is a BAD idea. If journalists REALLY want the story, they should go at their own risk. The last thing any soldier needs is a camera at their back. Now, moving on to the reality... we DO have embedded reporters. What are they doing? Looking for a story. What do networks look for in a story? Ratings. What if they find something that isn't really a story, but it's all they have? Sensationalize it. I've written to NBC to express my disgust that they supplied the footage to Al-Jazeera, of all places, and sensationalized this incedent to the point that it takes precedence over the killing of KNOWN innocent woman. NBC's desire to have a scorching story just supplied the entire Arab world with a reason to blame someone else, instead of looking at what "their own" have done to someone that was helping. NBC should be ashamed of themselves for not reporting any supposed wrongdoing to the military before fueling the fire like they did. Second, I value the lives of our troops WAY more than the lives of the people we're fighting. Call me crazy, but that's what a war is. We kill more of them than they us. If you have house to house clearing going on and you scream into a house for any occupants to come out, and no one does and no one responds... you're left to assume that the house is either empty or someone doesn't want you to find them in there. Given the propensity of these terrorists to blow themselves up to get at our troops, it seem a bit counterintuitive to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Wounded and even dead terrorists have proven themselves to be a threat over and over again. Perhaps some of you would rather hear of our soldiers following your view of "the rules" and getting themselves killed. Meanwhile, there are plenty of families that just want their soldiers to come home alive. Just FYI, a wikipedia definiton of combatant... argue this till you're blue in the face, but here it is. A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war. Under the Geneva Conventions, persons waging war must have the following four characteristics to be protected by the laws of war: In uniform: Wear distinctive clothing making them recognizable as soldiers from a distance. Openly bearing arms: Carrying guns or small arms and not concealing them. Under officers: Obedient to a chain of command ending in a political leader or government. Fighting according to the laws of war: Not committing atrocities or crimes, not deliberately attacking civilians or engaging in terrorism. A combatant who has surrendered or been captured becomes a prisoner of war. A captured person not wearing a uniform who is caught carrying weapons or engaging in warlike acts (such as a spy) is not a lawful combatant and is therefore not protected by the laws of war. Such persons should be treated according to applicable civilian laws (if any). In practice they may be tortured or executed. Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #244 November 20, 2004 Quote We kill more of them than they us. Obviously. Not doubt about that. Quote If you have house to house clearing going on and you scream into a house for any occupants to come out, and no one does and no one responds... you're left to assume that the house is either empty or someone doesn't want you to find them in there. Could it be you forgot, that that house is in a country, that never attacked the USA, never declared a war to the US? That obviously, US soldiers just kill people, by walking from house to house? Seriously, I would do the same like the Iraq people: Invaders in my home means, I have to protect my family, my home, my life. I am happy, never faced any war. My father and my grand dad are/were soldiers all their lifetime. They said: Be happy about all, what you do not see. That war is an ugly biz and will leave tracks on the US' name. Forever. Same way like AH will always be mentioned in German history's connection. I believe my dad and Opa, of course dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #245 November 20, 2004 QuoteCould it be you forgot, that that house is in a country, that never attacked the USA, never declared a war to the US? That is a different subject than we're arguing here. For our troops in the field, it is irrelevant. They have their jobs to do, and some of us want them to stay alive while doing it. QuoteThat obviously, US soldiers just kill people, by walking from house to house? If the US was as warmongering as you'd like it to be... we'd have just carpetbombed all of Fallujah. For you to try to portray our troops as indiscriminate murderers is asinine. QuoteSeriously, I would do the same like the Iraq people: Invaders in my home means, I have to protect my family, my home, my life. Against a superior force, you'd die doing it. If you're not part of the terrorism in Iraq, you have nothing to fear by letting our troops know you're in the house and unarmed. Our guys aren't fighting house to house because it's fun, they're doing it so they don't have to destroy everything and everyone in Fallujah. QuoteMy father and my grand dad are/were soldiers all their lifetime. They said: Be happy about all, what you do not see. As were mine. Although they want people to appreciate what they have in peace, they beleive that some things are worth fighting for. I am thankful for some people standing up when they have to.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #246 November 21, 2004 Just FYI, a wikipedia definiton of combatant... argue this till you're blue in the face, but here it is. A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war. Under the Geneva Conventions, persons waging war must have the following four characteristics to be protected by the laws of war: In uniform: Wear distinctive clothing making them recognizable as soldiers from a distance. Openly bearing arms: Carrying guns or small arms and not concealing them. Under officers: Obedient to a chain of command ending in a political leader or government. Fighting according to the laws of war: Not committing atrocities or crimes, not deliberately attacking civilians or engaging in terrorism. A combatant who has surrendered or been captured becomes a prisoner of war. Great post, but i would like to add that lawful combatants must also carry identification stating that they are lawful combatants, if you look a Military ID cards, they say Geneva Conventions card on the back(ours do at least).History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #247 November 21, 2004 ah thats right i forgot wikipedia is the deciding authority on the conduct of the US military... take that defense in to your court marshall I'm sure it will go over well..... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #248 November 21, 2004 >A captured person not wearing a uniform who is caught carrying >weapons or engaging in warlike acts (such as a spy) is not a lawful > combatant and is therefore not protected by the laws of war. Such >persons should be treated according to applicable civilian laws (if > any). In practice they may be tortured or executed. Are you seriously OK with US security contractors being tortured or executed by Iraqis? Or are only we allowed to do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrunkMonkey 0 #249 November 21, 2004 Quote>A captured person not wearing a uniform who is caught carrying >weapons or engaging in warlike acts (such as a spy) is not a lawful > combatant and is therefore not protected by the laws of war. Such >persons should be treated according to applicable civilian laws (if > any). In practice they may be tortured or executed. Are you seriously OK with US security contractors being tortured or executed by Iraqis? Or are only we allowed to do that? The legalities of it have less than nothing to do with whether or not the American people are OK with it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #250 November 21, 2004 >The legalities of it have less than nothing to do with whether or not >the American people are OK with it... I didn't ask if the american people were OK with it; I asked if HE was OK with it. Because if he's not OK with them using that law, but OK with us using it - we might as well be honest and not use any laws at all, just make em up as we go along. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Next Page 10 of 12 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
billvon 3,006 #234 November 18, 2004 >too bad ignorance isnt painful... Cut it out Zen. Clever insults don't get around the rules against personal attacks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #235 November 19, 2004 QuoteCut it out Zen. Clever insults don't get around the rules against personal attacks. Are you kidding? That was far from clever. It was obvious and intentional. No attempt at hiding that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #236 November 19, 2004 QuoteYes the Marine is innocent untill proven guilty, Or is that a concept you can't understand Although it seems that in combat, the "presumed innocent" principle does not apply. Guantanamo Bay is full of these "presumed innocents"... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #237 November 20, 2004 Quote>That's what the Nazi's said. "No, that's like what _you_ said." "You know, you're just like Hitler." "No, YOU'RE just like Hitler!" As Godwin claims another thread. Godwin must also claim the DNC... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #238 November 20, 2004 I think allowing reporters with combat units is a dumb fuckind idea. It promotes arm chair quarterbacks and bleeding hearts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #239 November 20, 2004 An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #240 November 20, 2004 I don't condone what happened in this case. I saw the video and from where I was sitting it looked like a case of straight forwards murder. However, thats the problem, I was sitting in my front room. I hadn't just been spending weeks on end trying to avoid being killed and the last week being told that its my job to close and kill the enemy whilst he's trying to do the same to me. in the Falklands Paras shot some Argie prisoners after Goose Green, I'm afraid shit happens in war. It doesn't make it right but when you get young men to kill in action its sometimes very hard to get them to stop at the right moment. I just wish we in the UK had known back in the 80's that it was acceptable to use arty, attack helicopters, MBTs and GPMGs in built up areas to flush out terrorists, what an opportunity we missed in Belfast. Maybe the US would have helped us close the access to the hospitals and shell the falls road with howitzers in the name of democracy and freedom from terror!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #241 November 20, 2004 Quote War as a 'spectator sport' will be the next revolution in military affairs... This concept is as old as warfare its self. During the Nepolionic wars the public used to gather on the edge of the battle fields in carriages and with picnics, all that has changed is the size of the audience.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #242 November 20, 2004 none of the men in the video appeared to have any form of firearms on them or near them.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #243 November 20, 2004 I've bitten my tongue on this for quite some time, but seeing as this is now on its tenth page... no one will probably notice what I write. There are 2 major problems surrounding this incident. The first being that this is even an issue in the media at all. Embedded reporting is a BAD idea. If journalists REALLY want the story, they should go at their own risk. The last thing any soldier needs is a camera at their back. Now, moving on to the reality... we DO have embedded reporters. What are they doing? Looking for a story. What do networks look for in a story? Ratings. What if they find something that isn't really a story, but it's all they have? Sensationalize it. I've written to NBC to express my disgust that they supplied the footage to Al-Jazeera, of all places, and sensationalized this incedent to the point that it takes precedence over the killing of KNOWN innocent woman. NBC's desire to have a scorching story just supplied the entire Arab world with a reason to blame someone else, instead of looking at what "their own" have done to someone that was helping. NBC should be ashamed of themselves for not reporting any supposed wrongdoing to the military before fueling the fire like they did. Second, I value the lives of our troops WAY more than the lives of the people we're fighting. Call me crazy, but that's what a war is. We kill more of them than they us. If you have house to house clearing going on and you scream into a house for any occupants to come out, and no one does and no one responds... you're left to assume that the house is either empty or someone doesn't want you to find them in there. Given the propensity of these terrorists to blow themselves up to get at our troops, it seem a bit counterintuitive to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. Wounded and even dead terrorists have proven themselves to be a threat over and over again. Perhaps some of you would rather hear of our soldiers following your view of "the rules" and getting themselves killed. Meanwhile, there are plenty of families that just want their soldiers to come home alive. Just FYI, a wikipedia definiton of combatant... argue this till you're blue in the face, but here it is. A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war. Under the Geneva Conventions, persons waging war must have the following four characteristics to be protected by the laws of war: In uniform: Wear distinctive clothing making them recognizable as soldiers from a distance. Openly bearing arms: Carrying guns or small arms and not concealing them. Under officers: Obedient to a chain of command ending in a political leader or government. Fighting according to the laws of war: Not committing atrocities or crimes, not deliberately attacking civilians or engaging in terrorism. A combatant who has surrendered or been captured becomes a prisoner of war. A captured person not wearing a uniform who is caught carrying weapons or engaging in warlike acts (such as a spy) is not a lawful combatant and is therefore not protected by the laws of war. Such persons should be treated according to applicable civilian laws (if any). In practice they may be tortured or executed. Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #244 November 20, 2004 Quote We kill more of them than they us. Obviously. Not doubt about that. Quote If you have house to house clearing going on and you scream into a house for any occupants to come out, and no one does and no one responds... you're left to assume that the house is either empty or someone doesn't want you to find them in there. Could it be you forgot, that that house is in a country, that never attacked the USA, never declared a war to the US? That obviously, US soldiers just kill people, by walking from house to house? Seriously, I would do the same like the Iraq people: Invaders in my home means, I have to protect my family, my home, my life. I am happy, never faced any war. My father and my grand dad are/were soldiers all their lifetime. They said: Be happy about all, what you do not see. That war is an ugly biz and will leave tracks on the US' name. Forever. Same way like AH will always be mentioned in German history's connection. I believe my dad and Opa, of course dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #245 November 20, 2004 QuoteCould it be you forgot, that that house is in a country, that never attacked the USA, never declared a war to the US? That is a different subject than we're arguing here. For our troops in the field, it is irrelevant. They have their jobs to do, and some of us want them to stay alive while doing it. QuoteThat obviously, US soldiers just kill people, by walking from house to house? If the US was as warmongering as you'd like it to be... we'd have just carpetbombed all of Fallujah. For you to try to portray our troops as indiscriminate murderers is asinine. QuoteSeriously, I would do the same like the Iraq people: Invaders in my home means, I have to protect my family, my home, my life. Against a superior force, you'd die doing it. If you're not part of the terrorism in Iraq, you have nothing to fear by letting our troops know you're in the house and unarmed. Our guys aren't fighting house to house because it's fun, they're doing it so they don't have to destroy everything and everyone in Fallujah. QuoteMy father and my grand dad are/were soldiers all their lifetime. They said: Be happy about all, what you do not see. As were mine. Although they want people to appreciate what they have in peace, they beleive that some things are worth fighting for. I am thankful for some people standing up when they have to.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #246 November 21, 2004 Just FYI, a wikipedia definiton of combatant... argue this till you're blue in the face, but here it is. A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war. Under the Geneva Conventions, persons waging war must have the following four characteristics to be protected by the laws of war: In uniform: Wear distinctive clothing making them recognizable as soldiers from a distance. Openly bearing arms: Carrying guns or small arms and not concealing them. Under officers: Obedient to a chain of command ending in a political leader or government. Fighting according to the laws of war: Not committing atrocities or crimes, not deliberately attacking civilians or engaging in terrorism. A combatant who has surrendered or been captured becomes a prisoner of war. Great post, but i would like to add that lawful combatants must also carry identification stating that they are lawful combatants, if you look a Military ID cards, they say Geneva Conventions card on the back(ours do at least).History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #247 November 21, 2004 ah thats right i forgot wikipedia is the deciding authority on the conduct of the US military... take that defense in to your court marshall I'm sure it will go over well..... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #248 November 21, 2004 >A captured person not wearing a uniform who is caught carrying >weapons or engaging in warlike acts (such as a spy) is not a lawful > combatant and is therefore not protected by the laws of war. Such >persons should be treated according to applicable civilian laws (if > any). In practice they may be tortured or executed. Are you seriously OK with US security contractors being tortured or executed by Iraqis? Or are only we allowed to do that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #249 November 21, 2004 Quote>A captured person not wearing a uniform who is caught carrying >weapons or engaging in warlike acts (such as a spy) is not a lawful > combatant and is therefore not protected by the laws of war. Such >persons should be treated according to applicable civilian laws (if > any). In practice they may be tortured or executed. Are you seriously OK with US security contractors being tortured or executed by Iraqis? Or are only we allowed to do that? The legalities of it have less than nothing to do with whether or not the American people are OK with it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #250 November 21, 2004 >The legalities of it have less than nothing to do with whether or not >the American people are OK with it... I didn't ask if the american people were OK with it; I asked if HE was OK with it. Because if he's not OK with them using that law, but OK with us using it - we might as well be honest and not use any laws at all, just make em up as we go along. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
