Boy Scouts of America and Religous Discrimination

[Unstable 9]

From the Fox News Network.... Clicky

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CHICAGO  — The Pentagon has agreed to warn military bases worldwide not to directly sponsor Boy Scout troops, partially resolving claims that the government has engaged in religious discrimination by supporting a group that requires members to believe in God. The settlement announced Monday is part of a series of legal challenges in recent years over how closely the government should be aligned with the Boy Scouts of America (search), a venerable organization that boasts a membership of more than 3.2 million members.


Civil liberties advocates have set their sights on the organization's policies because the group bans openly gay scout leaders and compels members to swear an oath of duty to God. The American Civil Liberties Union (search) believes that direct government sponsorship of such a program amounts to discrimination.


"If our Constitution's promise of religious liberty is to be a reality, the government should not be administering religious oaths or discriminating based on religious beliefs," said ACLU attorney Adam Schwartz.


The Pentagon said it has long had a rule against sponsorship of non-federal organizations and denied the rule had been violated. But it agreed to send a message to posts worldwide warning them not to sponsor Boy Scout troops or other such groups.




The rule does not prevent service members from leading Scout troops unofficially on their own time, and Scouts will still be able to hold meetings on areas of military bases where civilian organizations are allowed to hold events.


The settlement does not resolve other ACLU claims involving government spending that benefits the Boy Scouts, such as money used to prepare a Virginia military base for the Boy Scout Jamboree and grants used by state and local governments to benefit the Boy Scouts, Schwartz said.


He said the Pentagon spends $2 million every year to prepare the Virginia base for the jamboree, held once every four years. He said the Defense Department also makes annual allocations of $100,000 to support Boy Scout units on military bases overseas and $100,000 to improve Boy Scout properties, such as summer camps.


Attorney Marcia Berman, who represented the Defense Department (search), declined to comment on the settlement Monday. But Justice Department spokesman Charles Miller said the message that will be sent to bases represents "a clarification of an existing rule that DOD personnel cannot be involved in an official capacity."


The original ACLU lawsuit named as defendants the Department of Defense, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and the Chicago Board of Education. The schools settled, agreeing not to engage in official sponsorship of scouting activities.

I've seen this thrown around here in the Speakers Corner before, but this resolve from the Pentagon, I fear, Is more serious than many of us percieve it to be.
In many Communities like the One I grew Up in, The Boy Scouts of America do more for the Community and for the youth than can possibly be expressed in words. Whether it be activating Childrens minds, expanding their horizions, offering Constructive activities, or simply bettering one's self and Community, the BSA is an Integral part of almost every community.
Now that the Pentagon has barganed with the ACLU, what next - will the ACLU push this same crap on Public School that Sponsor Scout Troops or even offer the use of public facilities?
IMHO, this entire thing is wrong on almost every level.... I don't know if I should be more Angry at the ACLU's gross Misinterperatation of Scouting oaths and Values, or the sheer and selfish negalance of the ACLU when the act without thinking of the impact these things may have on other Communities.

=========Shaun ==========

[MC208B 0]

the ACLU is one fucked up organization

If there is morals, values, religion or anything else "American" the ACLU has a bone to pick.

What a bunch of assholes!

[Paulipod 0]

As a former scout... and advocate of their efforts.. I think it is bad that they dont get support...

However, in the US are non-christian or homosexual members allowed to join? / lead?

If not, that sucks.

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[kelpdiver 2]

If the Scouts want to be more inclusive with regards to leaders and boys, great. If not, they can forget about the special priviledges they've enjoyed for the last century. I don't think they are allowed to use schools any more in these parts.

As a private organization they do have the right to discriminate, but not while they act nearly as a governmental institution.

[miked10270 0]

"...non-christian or homosexual members allowed to join?"

As a former scout leader, (& based on my interviews to become so), I can confirm that the Scout Association in the UK (and I understand worldwide) does NOT require either Christianity OR Hererosexuality.

The Scout Asociation (as an association promoting certain moral values) DOES require a belief in a higher deity, and would object to ANY promotion of specific types of sexual activity with heterosexuality sort of "advocated by silence on the matter".

There certainly were both non-Christian and homosexual scout leaders in the UK in my time.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Scouting is a great institution, but correct me if I'm wrong, the Scouts Promise required that the oath taker promises to do his duty to 'God and to the Queen', in this country anyways.

I think the spirtual element of the kids' development as part of the goal of the Scouting movement is pretty much de-facto. I recall saying the Lord's prayer at Scout meetings, attending remembrance day parades at churhces etc as a Scout.

It would be a great shame if religious nuts forced the organisation to recant a lot of this structure just because someone got their knckers in a twist over it.

I'm pretty sure Baden Powell intended Scouting to be non-sectarian, its just that spiritual guidance as part of any kid's development is seen as religious brainwashing by some, and its not brainwashing, in my experience.

Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, whatever, does not mean that they are paedophiles, so I don't see what the issue is.

I know some pretty nasty heteros that I wouldn't want my wee boy hanging out with, and some more than decent homosexuals that I would not hesitate to leave my child in the care of.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[miked10270 0]

"On my honour I promise I shal do my best.
To do my duty to God and to the Queen.
To help other people.
And to keep the Scout Law"

An oath of allegiance to your deity, and to your head of state.

No mention of Christianity. Only a promise of belief and patriotism.

I bet that anywhere else "Queen" would be replaced by "State" or similar. "God" is God whether he's called Allah, Krishna, L.Ron Hubbard, or whatever.

Mike.

Edited to add: Incidentally The Scout Association is unique in that it's leaders get NO financial reward whatsoever, and are expected to pay their way for the privelege of Scouting. It's kind of frowned on even to claim expenses. Any monies raised are spent on the kids.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Och Akela, I'm good with the spiritual aspects of Scouting, no harm in my eyes, in fact..

"The Scout Movement includes Members of many different forms of religion. The following policy has received the approval of the heads of the leading religious bodies in the United Kingdom. "
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/2003/chapter_2.htm

I'm moaning that other people see something more sinister.
"Edited to add: Incidentally The Scout Association is unique in that it's leaders get NO financial reward whatsoever, and are expected to pay their way for the privelege of Scouting. It's kind of frowned on even to claim expenses. Any monies raised are spent on the kids."

Edit to add, I know, I used to have a warrant (well that's what they called them a long time (20+yrs)ago).

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[miked10270 0]

I concur wholeheartedly.

Now excuse me while I go into another mode....

Perhaps The Pentagon should take a long hard look at themselves.

Meanwhile, instead of attacking an existing body, the ACLU should form a suitable alternative, something like:

"The Atheist Arse-Bangers Young Boys Movement"

Then THEY could approach The Pentagon for suitable support based on the number of kids who've joined?

Wouldn't that be fair?

Mike.

Edited to remove any hint of Female or Lesbian discrimination:

"The Godless Buzzy Beavers."

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I reckon "The Godless Buzzy Beavers" is a better moniker.

But I don't honestly think the current administration would support funding either organisation.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[miked10270 0]

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I reckon "The Godless Buzzy Beavers" is a better moniker.

Yeah... Probably the more attractive organisation, but The Girl Guides always was...!

Anyway, having realised that I am still segregating boys & girls in a politically incorrect fashion, it'll have to be...:

"Anti Religion, Segregational & Heterosexual Organisation for Leadership of Emerging Youth."

Hopefully The ACLU (and The Pentagon in turn) will fully support the formation of ARSeHOLEY troops throughout the US.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[PhillyKev 0]

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As a former scout... and advocate of their efforts.. I think it is bad that they dont get support...

However, in the US are non-christian or homosexual members allowed to join? / lead?

If not, that sucks.

I agree about the value of Boy Scouts, but in the US, they can and have kicked out Atheists and Homosexuals. They are allowed to because they are a private organization. I have no problem with that. But at the same time, I also don't believe fed'l funds should be used to support a private, discriminatory organization.

[PhreeZone 20]

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As a former scout leader, (& based on my interviews to become so), I can confirm that the Scout Association in the UK (and I understand worldwide) does NOT require either Christianity OR Hererosexuality.

And as a former US Scout leader and Eagle Scout I can tell you here in the US you must believe in some higher power and be hetrosexual or else you are not allowed to join. If you do manage to join as soon as you speak out on your beliefs they will prevent your renewal the next year or ask you to leave right then. Any open homosexual is instantly removed from the organization and it does'nt matter if they are a youth or an adult. If asked if you are homosexual and you answer no then you can be removed if its later found out you are even if you are not open about it since you lied about it.

The BSA has gone to the Supreme Court in order to classify them as a private organization and as such they are allowed to discriminate against anyone they want to. Specifically the case they fought the hardest on was a case where a youth that was an Eagle Scout was moving in the organization from a youth (under 18) to an adult leader position and they denyed his application since he was now openly gay. The SCOTUS found that since the BSA was a private organization they could hold members and new members up to their oath and codes. The Scouts argued that being gay was a violation of the morally straight portion of their oath. That also argued at that time that a non-believer would violate the reverent portion of their code.

I support the BSA more then most people know. Scouting helped shape me into the person I am today more then anything else. For that I will forever be in debt to the Scouting movement and will continue to support them. I left the organization due to time constraints, but since I'm considered a "non-believer" since I'm not part of an organized religion it was extremely hard to keep justifying to the other leaders why I would not attend their religious retreats and prayer sessions at outings.

But, they are trying to play both sides of the field on these issues. They want to be a private organization like the Elks or Freemasons, but want assistance from schools and other federal institutions to run their organization. They want access to hold meetings in schools like community groups such as Neighborhood Watch, Little League and other groups are allowed to have. They need to have assistance from military bases and other federal/state groups in order to facilite a lot of the outdoor programs that are part of the core of scouting. Lots of districts are having a hard time financing the maintence of their summer camps so they are working out deals to sell the lands to state/local park districts and maintain access rights. In some places it backfires since the local laws prevent state/local money/land to be used for any discrimitory organization's usage. In San Francisco a few years ago the Scouts camping permit was denyed for a place they have been using and maintaining for at least 20 years since the local laws prevented them from issueing permits to discrimatory groups.

The church is playing an ever increasing role in the direction of scouting. Besides Catholics, Latter Day Saints make up the second largest religion in US Scouts. The Morman church is the single largest religious contribuitor to scouting in the US both in finances and in other issues. More Morman churches are sponsors of Boy Scout units then all most all other organizations. Veterans of Foriegn War chapters was the largest a few years ago but LDS was catching up fast. Scouting is now forever dependent on the Morman church for partial sponsorship. With this sponsorship comes the direction that the future of scouting will be lead in.



Scout Oath:
On my honor I will do my best
to do my duty to God and my County.
And to obey the Scout Law.
To help other people at all times.
To keep my self physically strong,
Mentally awake and morally straight.

Scout Law:

A Scout is
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
and Reverent.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Unstable 9]

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The church is playing an ever increasing role in the direction of scouting. Besides Catholics, Latter Day Saints make up the second largest religion in US Scouts. The Morman church is the single largest religious contribuitor to scouting in the US both in finances and in other issues.

I have been both an Eagle Scout and a Scout Leader in an LDS-sponsored Troop. Boy Scouting is a BIG thing to the Latter-Day Saints, and it is almost as much a part of growing up for them as is Going to Church.
I was around in 1999 when the Supream Court knocked the first blow to the BSA, and there was the feeling in the air that if this continued, the Church would move away from Scouting. As a Matter-of-Fact, right about the time I got my Eagle, The LDS church introduced a new program for the Young men/Young Women which looked like it might serve as a Replacement. Well, the Rumors have been circulating for some time the Church in Salt Lake City may not include Scouting for too much longer... But then again, this is all Rumors...

=========Shaun ==========

[Kennedy 0]

The Boy Scouts of America are defined by their Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, and Outdoor Code.

OATH
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

LAW
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

MOTTO
Be Prepared

SLOGAN
Do a Good Turn Daily

OUTDOOR CODE
As an American, I will do my best to -
Be clean in my outdoor manners
Be careful with fire
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation minded.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhreeZone 20]

Actually the Outdoor Code has been added in the last 3-5 years so its not part of any of the SCOTUS rules and has nothing to do with membership.

Only thing that matters is the Oath since thats the equalevent of a swearing in. Since the Oath refrences the Law, then the Law is accepted in by default. Funny thing is that the line in the Oath about obeying the laws was added in the early 60's and would later play a large role in the shaping of the current BSA policies.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Unstable 9]

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To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

See, Maybe I'm just not understanding how the ACLU has turned this line and the "Reverent" in the Law into their logic of the BSA forcing Judeo-Christian Beliefs upon poor, helpless Scouts. Yes, the require you to Acknowledge a higher power, but in all fairness, one could acknowlege "Nature" as a higher power.

Doesn't ACLU Stand for Anti-Christ Lawyers Union?

=========Shaun ==========

[Guest]

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To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

See, Maybe I'm just not understanding how the ACLU has turned this line and the "Reverent" in the Law into their logic of the BSA forcing Judeo-Christian Beliefs upon poor, helpless Scouts. Yes, the require you to Acknowledge a higher power, but in all fairness, one could acknowlege "Nature" as a higher power.

Doesn't ACLU Stand for Anti-Christ Lawyers Union?

Same organization defending NAMBLA members in court, citing their free-speech rights.

Attacking freedom of association of some, while defending the reprehensible association of others. Shameful.

mh

.

[Unstable 9]

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Same organization defending NAMBLA members in court, citing their free-speech rights.

Attacking freedom of association of some, while defending the reprehensible association of others. Shameful.

This point comes up in about 75% of all Speakers Corner Threads;
I agree completely, it's absolutely shameful.

=========Shaun ==========

[bsoder 0]

Here's a link to the various religious emblems that can be earned in Scouting.

http://www.scouting.org/awards/religious/awards/index.html

You don't have to believe in any particular faith, it's just a "higher power." This page is interesting - http://www.princeton.edu/~lawjourn/Spring97/weinberg.html, specifically this part:

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God.... The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

Except for the gender specific language, the statement tactfully does not define God. The Boy Scouts are a very ecumenical orgamzation. The brief that the BSA prepared for Randall states that the "Boy Scouts' national Religious Relationships Committee, which approves religious awards and develops non-denominational prayers and benedictions, is perhaps the broadest based ecumenical group in the country."

My son is a Webelos Scout, I am one of his Den leaders.

[lawrocket 3]

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Civil liberties advocates have set their sights on the organization's policies because the group bans openly gay scout leaders

Reading this quote, would you ask yourself, "are they going after the BSA or the Pentagon."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Casurf1978 0]

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the ACLU is one fucked up organization

If there is morals, values, religion or anything else "American" the ACLU has a bone to pick.

What a bunch of assholes!

Check this link out. I dont see too many other organizations coming to defend people like the Vegas street preachers.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/125225.htm

[PhreeZone 20]

The major issue is that even if you believe in a higher power there is a huge drive to use Christian services and traditions. One of the things a youth has to do for advancement is to lead his patrol or unit in prayer before meals a certian number of times. It is incredibly hard to do this if you are doing this as a non christian to a general population.

In my 14 years of involvement in the Scouting program ('87-'01) I was amazed at just how easy it was for one person to be able to push (for lack of better words) their religious thoughts to youth that might not have the same beliefs with no check and balences. I was at one outing that the Chaplain was a Southern Baptist that attempted to give a Brimstone sermon to a mixed group of Catholics, a few LDS youth, 2 Jewish kids and a few other kids. Luckly another leader steped in soon after the "If you refuse to let Jesus Christ, the one and only true savior into your hearts and accept him you will be condemed to burn in the firey depths of hell" comment.

As an organization the BSA does a wonderful job trying to remain non-denominational as long as you believe in traditional religion. If you believe in a New-age religion or Unitarianism then you are kinda isolated and even though the policy is not official, being in an organization that is populated primarly of Christians and those that speak only of christian believes then there is an unoffical movement in the organization to move that belief.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wmw999 2,541]

Folks, here is exactly why it does matter about publicly-led prayer in school, what you call your deity of choice as you swear to him in court, and why the 10 commandments don't really belong in courtrooms.

If you do it to acknowledge and honor history, fine. If you do it as a part of ceremony to remain part of your government-sponsored group, then the state is, in fact, recognizing the religious expression that's in the driver's seat.

Nothing wrong with the Scouts wanting that. But to do so with government sponsorship is not right.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DrunkMonkey 0]

As an Eagle scout (1994) and a on-again, off-again leader, I have some insight...

When I was a scout/practicing Catholic (now a FORMER Catholic) myself, 99% of the scouts were from the Catholic Parish that sponsored the Troop. There were no religious tensions.... Dunno about other troops.

-BUT-

When I vol'ed to be a asst SM, it was at a Mormon Church sponsored troop. I had never felt so much an outsider. I walked in w/ a 20oz of Coke...you woulda thought I brought in a puppy and smashed its head. I then made the mistake of inviting another 20-something asst SM for a friendly drink...I was asked to leave and not come back...Fuqurs.

MIND YOU: I had no knowledge of LDS theology...Despite them trying to convert me several times in the first hour. I kindly informed them I was Deist, and let's leave it at that...

This is a no-win debate...