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the ongoing battle of the religious nuts vs. the non religious nuts.....boring.
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people see me as a challenge to their balance
people see me as a challenge to their balance
yep. there are extremists on both sides.
QuoteI'm very strongly for separation of church and state.
That said, that principal is damn stupid, so long as the teacher is using the documents in a historical context and not using them to further his own religious goals.
Other teachers in the school can use their judgement without screening or restriction, and continue to be allowed to pass out materials that reference god. The restrictions have only been applied to this particular teacher.
Therefore, the principal clearly believes that this particular teacher is using the documents to further his personal religious goals.
I haven't been able to find any details yet, so I maintain a wait and see stance on this one.
As of right now it seems awfully premature to write this off as revisionist liberalism or extremist secularism.
I think it's interesting to note where the knee jerk reactions are coming from in this discussion.
Hint: it's not the liberals or secularists.
-Josh
FYI: Here's a link to the only source I've found so far.
It's got a photo copy of the lawsuit, but none of the supporting documents.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1124041declar1.html
If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
kallend 2,106
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I just don't see it. And to talk about the article, this shit is getting ridiculous. I remember in my HS World History class, we learned about Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism. I guess real diversity in learning is dead.
It's ok to be diverse when it comes to what you are learning about as long as its not about the majority. for example, no one would complain if they were learning about Islam, or Taoism, but don't even mention christianity. black history is ok but if someone were to teach specifially on white history it would be racist.
That's my take on it at least.
Public school policy is set by elected school boards who represent the community. If you don't like what they do, vote them out at the next election and run for office yourself.
Blaming the teachers for school policy is like blaming the gun for the recent Wisconsin hunter killings.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
yep... that's why I qualified my statement with "so long as he's using the documents in a historical context and not using them to further his own religious goals."
I'll look up the lawsuit after it's settled to read about it. I'm curious.
I'll look up the lawsuit after it's settled to read about it. I'm curious.
Jib 0
Quoteyep... that's why I qualified my statement with "so long as he's using the documents in a historical context and not using them to further his own religious goals."
What religious goals? What's the difference? Do you mean that we censor out the bad word "God" to rewrite the history of this country? It's a history class! How can you explain "judeo-christian roots" (from California course goals) that the founding fathers believed in without addressing why God is mentioned multiple times by them and their documents?
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
Jib 0
QuoteTherefore, the principal clearly believes that this particular teacher is using the documents to further his personal religious goals. ... As of right now it seems awfully premature to write this off as revisionist liberalism or extremist secularism.
Knee jerk reaction? Did you read the complaint? The part where he teaches about other religions?
It's premature but you know what the principal thinks? She's not a liberal? Yeah, no knee jerk assumption there.
Censorship is wrong as is the intolerance and downright revision of history. Where's the line between explaining history and pushing religion?
FWIW I go to church for weddings and funerals, but I know where we came from.
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
kallend 2,106
QuoteQuoteTherefore, the principal clearly believes that this particular teacher is using the documents to further his personal religious goals. ... As of right now it seems awfully premature to write this off as revisionist liberalism or extremist secularism.
Knee jerk reaction? Did you read the complaint? The part where he teaches about other religions?
It's premature but you know what the principal thinks? She's not a liberal? Yeah, no knee jerk assumption there.
Censorship is wrong as is the intolerance and downright revision of history. Where's the line between explaining history and pushing religion?
.
Public school policy is set by elected school boards who represent the community. If you don't like what they do, vote them out at the next election and run for office yourself.
Blaming the teachers for school policy is like blaming the gun for the recent Wisconsin hunter killings.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote
Knee jerk reaction? Did you read the complaint? The part where he teaches about other religions?
It's premature but you know what the principal thinks? She's not a liberal? Yeah, no knee jerk assumption there.
Yes I read the complaint. Did you?
If so you ought to have noticed that it acknowledges that the restrictions are specific to this teacher.
Other teachers are allowed to use similar materials.
This strongly suggests something more is going on.
No assumptions or knee jerk reactions on my part, just obvious implications suggested by the limited facts so far available.
Gee, I've even made it a point to emphasize that it's premature to draw any strong conclusions. In fact I've reiterated as much three times now.
Maybe "knee jerk" means something different to you than to the rest of us?
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Censorship is wrong as is the intolerance and downright revision of history. Where's the line between explaining history and pushing religion?
Where's the line between explaining history and pushing religion?
That's a good question. This lawsuit may help sort that out. That is, assuming the judge that hears the case maintains an open mind and doesn't start with the assumption that the school is engaging in historical revisionism and intolerance.
Nothing to worry about though. I'm certain no one with formal training in law would make such mistakes!
-Josh
If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.
No, if you read my posts above, you'd know that I do not support editing or censoring the word "god". What I meant was that it's fine for him to use the documents like any student of history would, to educate and explain, not to convert.
Jib 0
QuoteNo, if you read my posts above, you'd know that I do not support editing or censoring the word "god". What I meant was that it's fine for him to use the documents like any student of history would, to educate and explain, not to convert.
I don't see where the line is between using to educate and explain (which has been done for over a hundred years) versus convert short of saying you're going to hell or George Washington believed so should you. At the same time, there are schools where "God" cannot be said and I suspect this is one of them.
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
there's a difference between saying "this is what the puritans believed", "this is what the people who settled in this area believed, and this is how it affected their culture and way of life" and "christianity is the only true religion, just look at all the historical figures who thought that way too!"
The first two are ok in public school. the third one is not.
The first two are ok in public school. the third one is not.
Jib 0
QuoteYes I read the complaint. Did you?
If so you ought to have noticed that it acknowledges that the restrictions are specific to this teacher.
Other teachers are allowed to use similar materials.
This strongly suggests something more is going on.
No assumptions or knee jerk reactions on my part, just obvious implications suggested by the limited facts so far available.
Obvious implications? ... that support your view of this incident. While you're entitled to your position, you cannot make some determinations and claim not to have made a choice. The implications are just as obvious that this teacher is actually teaching history in context and not some revisionist ideal of rote memorization of dates and places like the rest.
QuoteWhere's the line between explaining history and pushing religion?
That's a good question. This lawsuit may help sort that out. That is, assuming the judge that hears the case maintains an open mind and doesn't start with the assumption that the school is engaging in historical revisionism and intolerance.
Nothing to worry about though. I'm certain no one with formal training in law would make such mistakes!
Nice try at a dig. You're forgetting that this is a Constitutional issue. A judge should NEVER look to an infringement on the Constitution without some degree of reservation. I guess that's the reason why the liberal judges in California (9th Circ) are the most reversed in the country. Or are you saying that they are too closed minded?
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
Jib 0
Quotethere's a difference between saying "this is what the puritans believed", "this is what the people who settled in this area believed, and this is how it affected their culture and way of life" and "christianity is the only true religion, just look at all the historical figures who thought that way too!"
The first two are ok in public school. the third one is not.
I agree but the Complaint does not support that here since he taught about multiple religions.
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
Unfortunately the only Liberal I rememeber coming to power was Mussolini, who campaigned on a platform of liberal reform (and making the trains run on time).
And then there's those famous German Socialists Eric Hoeneker and Adolf Hitler. Remember that Hitler campaigned (and won) on a manifesto of "Work & Bread for all". Now isn't that a good Liberal Socialist principle?
These particular Socialists & Liberals also had a penchant for "correcting" history, religion, and ultimately thought (!!) but always for the good of all the people who they governed.
Mike.
Edited to ask: Who was it that originally said "Scratch a Liberal and find a Dictator"? (or similar)?
Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.
Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
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