Options post 190 Sabre 2?

[timrf79 0]

I (6'6" ~ 255 lbs exit weight) am currently jumping a 190 Sabre 2. My goal is to be doing video early next year, which means I should have a second rig.
This brings me to the question for which canopy(-size) I should plan for?

Wanting to stay on the sporty side, possibly going into swooping (many hundred jumps later).

So what are the canopy options progressing from my current model? (Sabre 2 170, Crossfire 2 189, Zulu 172, Katana 170, ...)

[mathrick 2]

Do you actually have 80 jumps as your profile says? In that case you're already very much on the sporty side. 1.35 WL is very significant at this stage, increasing it further would not be a smart thing to do. You already have all the sportiness you should need for quite a while, now focus on building the skills. You can totally swoop it (and Sabre 2 is not a bad starter for serious CP), so there's no reason to change.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[timrf79 0]

Sorry,
have not updated my profile in a few weeks.
At about 140+ jumps now (I do about 10 jumps a weekend).

The importance for me is to think about what canopy I would be jumping in 6 month from now (at 300 - 400 jumps).

With some rigs pushing 20 weeks lead time, I want to plan ahead.

I also want a rig that allows for downsizing later on, as the market for used rigs at my size is non-existent.

[councilman24 37]

timrf79

I also want a rig that allows for downsizing later on, as the market for used rigs at my size is non-existent.

Over the last year I've been trying to help a few big guys find rigs. I don't think the market is non-existent.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[mathrick 2]

I still think 1.35 WL is plenty to start swooping, so you don't need to be in a particular hurry to downsize just yet. Get super good on what you're flying now. That said, I know a guy who jumps a VK77 in his Vortex 150 (incidentally the same model I also just bought), so there's one downsizing-friendly container for you. I've also heard good things about downsizing capabilities of Curvs, with the caveat that their nominal sizing is extremely tight (dry Arizona climate and all that), so you will go several sizes down, but not don't count on going up.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[sagan 0]

Note that when I was at a similar spot, Icarus was a great mfg if you plan to buy new. In my case I found a used Safire2 159 which was a perfect size. Yes that's right, Icarus made in between sizes. They still may if you ask them. Might be something to consider.

[monkycndo 0]

timrf79

Sorry,
have not updated my profile in a few weeks.
At about 140+ jumps now (I do about 10 jumps a weekend).

The importance for me is to think about what canopy I would be jumping in 6 month from now (at 300 - 400 jumps).

Being at 1.35 WL at 140 jumps is still pretty aggressive. A rule of thumb for wingloading is 1.0:1 till 100, then add 0.1 for each 100 there after. For the outliers both petite and bigboy, there are allowances to be considered. A tiny girl shouldn't have a 135 as her first canopy, and a big 230 canopy will never be considered sporty. A Sabre2 190 loaded at 1.35 is sporty. You are a grown ass man and can do what to want, but the longer you are in the sport, you will realize why people are saying telling you to slow down.

To answer your question, many of the canopies you listed are suggested for jumpers with more than 300-400 jumps. At your jumping rate, you should focus on getting all you can out of your current canopy. Most containers can be good for 3 canopy sizes. The largest will fit snug, middle size will fit nice and smallest on the soft side. At a 170, that will be 1.5 WL. Still a bit aggressive if are only at 300 jumps.

I would suggest sticking with the Sabre2 190, maybe even a second one for your second rig. Reselling them are a piece of cake because folks like you are always looking for one in that size.

I would suggest you get a hold of Aggiedave here on the forums. He is a big guy and got into swooping. I'm sure he will be a wealth of information on downsizing and swooping.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[T_C 0]

How much canopy coaching have you done?

[timrf79 0]

I have done the fight 1 101 and 102 course.
In August I will do the 103, 201 and 202 course.

[timrf79 0]

monkycndo

Being at 1.35 WL at 140 jumps is still pretty aggressive. A rule of thumb for wingloading is 1.0:1 till 100, then add 0.1 for each 100 there after. For the outliers both petite and bigboy, there are allowances to be considered. A tiny girl shouldn't have a 135 as her first canopy, and a big 230 canopy will never be considered sporty. A Sabre2 190 loaded at 1.35 is sporty. You are a grown ass man and can do what to want, but the longer you are in the sport, you will realize why people are saying telling you to slow down.

To answer your question, many of the canopies you listed are suggested for jumpers with more than 300-400 jumps. At your jumping rate, you should focus on getting all you can out of your current canopy. Most containers can be good for 3 canopy sizes. The largest will fit snug, middle size will fit nice and smallest on the soft side. At a 170, that will be 1.5 WL. Still a bit aggressive if are only at 300 jumps.

I would suggest sticking with the Sabre2 190, maybe even a second one for your second rig. Reselling them are a piece of cake because folks like you are always looking for one in that size.

I would suggest you get a hold of Aggiedave here on the forums. He is a big guy and got into swooping. I'm sure he will be a wealth of information on downsizing and swooping.

Thanks for the info.
How about a 189 Crosssfire 2?
I heard they have the softest opening and therefore are preferred for camera flying?

[timrf79 0]

councilman24

***

I also want a rig that allows for downsizing later on, as the market for used rigs at my size is non-existent.

Over the last year I've been trying to help a few big guys find rigs. I don't think the market is non-existent.
Good to hear if you find a rig that might fit, let me know.

[bgrozev 3]

Getting a new canopy is relatively easy, getting a container is harder. It seems to me that you have two viable options with regard to the container: get one that fits tightly a 190, or one that fits tightly a 170.
The first option will serve you immediately (or rather once you get the rig), while the second option will serve you once you are ready to downsize. The advantage of the second option is that it will serve you for longer (it will fit a size smaller than the bigger one, probably a 135).
You seem to be doing a lot of jumping, so you may be ready to downsize relatively quickly. A 170sqft canopy will put you at a WL of 1.5lbs/sqft, and if you follow the general recommendation and wait until 500 jumps, and you make 40 jumps per month on average, this means 9 months from now.

Given a lead time of 6 months for a container, the question now translates to: would you rather have to wait ~3 months until you use your container and then use it for longer, or use it right away after it's ready, but potentially have to change it earlier (when you want to move to a 135).

Two more things to consider: if you get to the point where you want to move to a 135 and your tightly-fitting-a-190 rig doesn't work, you will probably still want to have two rigs, so getting a new rig will still be an option. This will leave you with the option to continue using a bigger rig with a more conservative canopy for, say, wingsuiting. On the other hand, this means you'll have the heavier rig for longer.

Secondly, have in mind that even though present-you is rational and makes educated decisions based on generally accepted recommendation about the acceptable level of risk when moving to a smaller canopy, if you do order a rig for a 170, 6-months-from-now-you will be much more likely to say "fuck it, I just wanna play with my shiny new toy" and happily accept a higher level of risk :)

[monkycndo 0]

timrf79

Thanks for the info.
How about a 189 Crosssfire 2?
I heard they have the softest opening and therefore are preferred for camera flying?

When I started jumping, the manufacturer required 500 jumps just to demo a XF2. Also, the XF2 was designed to be loaded to a higher WL to get its performance. At 1.35, it would be considered under loaded. If you are looking for the entry level canopy for swooping, I would suggest sticking with the Saber2. They are more available used in the sizes you are considering and also would be easier to sell since your are already planning on downsizing. The market for any of the "swoopy" canopies in the larger sizes will be about nill.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[Baksteen 84]

timrf79

Thanks for the info.
How about a 189 Crosssfire 2?
I heard they have the softest opening and therefore are preferred for camera flying?

No, that would be the Spectre.
Also a good canopy for WS, bigway FS and/or FF and pretty much any other freefall discipline you can think of.

Not a swoopy canopy thingy though..

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[timrf79 0]

bgrozev

Getting a new canopy is relatively easy, getting a container is harder. It seems to me that you have two viable options with regard to the container: get one that fits tightly a 190, or one that fits tightly a 170.
The first option will serve you immediately (or rather once you get the rig), while the second option will serve you once you are ready to downsize. The advantage of the second option is that it will serve you for longer (it will fit a size smaller than the bigger one, probably a 135).
You seem to be doing a lot of jumping, so you may be ready to downsize relatively quickly. A 170sqft canopy will put you at a WL of 1.5lbs/sqft, and if you follow the general recommendation and wait until 500 jumps, and you make 40 jumps per month on average, this means 9 months from now.

Given a lead time of 6 months for a container, the question now translates to: would you rather have to wait ~3 months until you use your container and then use it for longer, or use it right away after it's ready, but potentially have to change it earlier (when you want to move to a 135).

Two more things to consider: if you get to the point where you want to move to a 135 and your tightly-fitting-a-190 rig doesn't work, you will probably still want to have two rigs, so getting a new rig will still be an option. This will leave you with the option to continue using a bigger rig with a more conservative canopy for, say, wingsuiting. On the other hand, this means you'll have the heavier rig for longer.

Secondly, have in mind that even though present-you is rational and makes educated decisions based on generally accepted recommendation about the acceptable level of risk when moving to a smaller canopy, if you do order a rig for a 170, 6-months-from-now-you will be much more likely to say "fuck it, I just wanna play with my shiny new toy" and happily accept a higher level of risk :)

You fully understand my dilemma.

However I did not see the point you made that if I get a rig that hold 150-190; I would want to exchange my current rig that holds 190-230.

The point no one can now, is how much better my canopy skills will be in ~6-9 month. They might be good enough for a 170 or not...

On the other hand if I order "now" a rig that holds 150-190, I can put my 190 in that rig, the 230 in the current rig and would have a "more forgiving rig" for jumps in not ideal conditions or at DZ's with more challenging emergency landing spots.
Lastly, I could then sell the full rig, rather than the 230 canopy (which is not moving) and remains seperate...

[T_C 0]

Good work. My advice would be to take the 103 course with your current set-up/canopy & ask your coach these questions. That's the best guidance you'll get.

As mentioned above, a 170 Sabre 2 will be far easier to sell than a similarly sized Crossfire.