jakee 1,490
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billvon 2,991
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>Yeah, people voluntary die all the time for beliefs that they KNOW
>BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT to be a lie. Yeah, sure, all the time.
Suicide bombers die in the Middle East all the time for their fervent belief that killing Israelis is a holy thing to do. Doesn't make their action any more valid. People are willing to die for a great many religions; I don't think any of those religions have a monopoly on truth. Indeed, most of them are based on a lack of evidence to support their particular supernatural force, which is why the term "faith" is used so much.
>BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT to be a lie. Yeah, sure, all the time.
Suicide bombers die in the Middle East all the time for their fervent belief that killing Israelis is a holy thing to do. Doesn't make their action any more valid. People are willing to die for a great many religions; I don't think any of those religions have a monopoly on truth. Indeed, most of them are based on a lack of evidence to support their particular supernatural force, which is why the term "faith" is used so much.
You are not following what I said. Suicide bombers and other religous fanatics die for what they BELIEVE to be true. But Jesus disciples died for what they KNEW to be fact (as in they saw the risen Christ). Had they made his resurection up, it would be very unusual for them all to be willing to die for what they KNEW they made up.
lou_lou 0
Yes and thank fuck it does else how would we recognise the good in people?!
billvon 2,991
>Suicide bombers and other religous fanatics die for what they BELIEVE to
>be true. But Jesus disciples died for what they KNEW to be fact (as in they
>saw the risen Christ).
And they believed that he truly did die and that God brought him back, rather than having him recover after nearly being killed. That's 100% fine for them to believe that. In the 1600's, back when we weren't so good at the details of physiology, it wasn't unheard of for 'dead' people (who were merely hypothermic, hypovolemic and/or bradycardic) to come back to life at the undertaker's, scaring the hell out of the undertaker. It's one reason very old graves sometimes had bells mounted to them - so if the 'dead' guy woke up underground they could ring the bell and get dug up. (useless trivia point of the week.)
>Had they made his resurection up, it would be very unusual for them all
>to be willing to die for what they KNEW they made up.
Never underestimate the power of faith to resolve a conflict between a belief and an observation. There are people who really believe that all the land animals on the planet could fit into a rather small boat, that women were created from the rib of a man, and that the earth was created somewhere around 10,000 years ago. And again, there's nothing wrong with them believing that.
>be true. But Jesus disciples died for what they KNEW to be fact (as in they
>saw the risen Christ).
And they believed that he truly did die and that God brought him back, rather than having him recover after nearly being killed. That's 100% fine for them to believe that. In the 1600's, back when we weren't so good at the details of physiology, it wasn't unheard of for 'dead' people (who were merely hypothermic, hypovolemic and/or bradycardic) to come back to life at the undertaker's, scaring the hell out of the undertaker. It's one reason very old graves sometimes had bells mounted to them - so if the 'dead' guy woke up underground they could ring the bell and get dug up. (useless trivia point of the week.)
>Had they made his resurection up, it would be very unusual for them all
>to be willing to die for what they KNEW they made up.
Never underestimate the power of faith to resolve a conflict between a belief and an observation. There are people who really believe that all the land animals on the planet could fit into a rather small boat, that women were created from the rib of a man, and that the earth was created somewhere around 10,000 years ago. And again, there's nothing wrong with them believing that.
pajarito 0
QuoteAnd they believed that he truly did die and that God brought him back, rather than having him recover after nearly being killed. That's 100% fine for them to believe that. In the 1600's, back when we weren't so good at the details of physiology, it wasn't unheard of for 'dead' people (who were merely hypothermic, hypovolemic and/or bradycardic) to come back to life at the undertaker's, scaring the hell out of the undertaker. It's one reason very old graves sometimes had bells mounted to them - so if the 'dead' guy woke up underground they could ring the bell and get dug up. (useless trivia point of the week.)
Before bringing him down after having been crucified, he was speared in the side and bled out with the intent of finishing him off in case he wasn't already dead. He was then closely guarded by the highly disciplined Roman soldiers. It would have been a very bad political move on their part to either have left him with a chance of survival or to have his body stolen. The determination of death in this instance wouldn't have been a problem even for 1st Century medicine. Not a very obscure case here Bill. I might could see your case if he became ill with something most people die from and he was carried away to die or something and really didn't. Kind of like in the movie "The Princess Bride." [British accent] He's not dead...... He's only "mostly dead." [/British accent]
Zenister 0
QuoteQuotethere in not a shred of evivdence that proves the theory of jesus or christianity... has to make you wonder
Yeah, people voluntary die all the time for beliefs that they KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT to be a lie. Yeah, sure, all the time.
Notice, I didn't say think or believe, I said what the KNOW .. Ie Jesus' apostles.
the early church had serious problems with the fact that the heretics were dying just as well as the 'true believers' (look it up if you doubt) .... and the lions didnt care what you believed, it was all meat to them...
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Zenister 0
QuoteQuoteAnd they believed that he truly did die and that God brought him back, rather than having him recover after nearly being killed. That's 100% fine for them to believe that. In the 1600's, back when we weren't so good at the details of physiology, it wasn't unheard of for 'dead' people (who were merely hypothermic, hypovolemic and/or bradycardic) to come back to life at the undertaker's, scaring the hell out of the undertaker. It's one reason very old graves sometimes had bells mounted to them - so if the 'dead' guy woke up underground they could ring the bell and get dug up. (useless trivia point of the week.)
Before bringing him down after having been crucified, he was speared in the side and bled out with the intent of finishing him off in case he wasn't already dead. He was then closely guarded by the highly disciplined Roman soldiers. It would have been a very bad political move on their part to either have left him with a chance of survival or to have his body stolen. The determination of death in this instance wouldn't have been a problem even for 1st Century medicine. Not a very obscure case here Bill. I might could see your case if he became ill with something most people die from and he was carried away to die or something and really didn't. Kind of like in the movie "The Princess Bride." [British accent] He's not dead...... He's only "mostly dead." [/British accent]
well the disciples claimed such, of course outside their testimony there isnt much to back any of those assertions... and that story sells soooo much better than "he slipped in the tub"
... i'm sure there are one or two branch davidians wandering around who will tell you all about their messiah as well... it is amazing what the human mind will create to justify its actions and beliefs...
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
pajarito 0
Quotewell the disciples claimed such, of course outside their testimony there isnt much to back any of those assertions... and that story sells soooo much better than "he slipped in the tub"
Quote
Well...and there's just that guy Paul and the good doctor Luke.
Zenister 0
QuoteQuotei'm sorry but "God only knows" is not an answer, it is a cop out, a non answer designed for children i.e. "because I said so..."
So are you saying IF there was a God who spoke EVERYTHING into creation, we should be able to fully understand him?? Sounds pretty prentencious (sp?)to me.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
of course if said God created humanity in his own image, (and its fairly well accepted that the mental, spiritual image is implied here, not the physical one) then yes, it is perfectly feasable that those creations would come to understand everything that God did as well...
there is a school of thought that believes that the entire point in Creation was divinity attempting to recreate itself... even the core christian belief is that humanity's 'goal' is to become closer, more 'God like' through the practice and participation in the divine mystery, the blood sacrifice of God 'himself' being the doorway by which we reach him..
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Zenister 0
QuoteQuotewell the disciples claimed such, of course outside their testimony there isnt much to back any of those assertions... and that story sells soooo much better than "he slipped in the tub"
Quote
Well...and there's just that guy Paul and the good doctor Luke.
the testimony of believers isnt worth a whole lot when your really attempting to analyze the facts... If you ask people who WANT to believe in Aliens "what happened at Roswell" you'll get answers that support their belief..... ever hear the term ' unreliable witness?
what possible reason could they have for embellishment, or outright fiction? couldnt be that they were trying to create a church and change the political and religious forces currently controlling their land could it??.... having a good recruiting story only furthers that goal...
self referencing ‘sources’ are worthless when it comes to objective truth..____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Uh, yeah, they do.
Whats the difference?
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