billvon 3,076 #51 December 8, 2004 >You seem to be unlearned. I strongly suggest you learn the definition >of words you so willingly throw at others. Enough with the attacks! Is it raining everywhere or something? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #52 December 8, 2004 Believe me that I do not take it all personally and still would jump with you no matter what your positition is concernining politics. I do know that all of us here can agree on one thing......Fire up the big bird, I can hear the sky calling me out to play..... Peace brother! PS, the retort that you are unlearned was uncalled for and I retract."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #53 December 8, 2004 I agree, no more."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #54 December 9, 2004 Another aspect of this - Emergency medical care is getting amazingly good nowadays. And while that is great news for soldiers who get injured in Iraq, it also means that there are a lot more people coming home missing arms, legs, genitals, intestines, and pieces of their brains. And there are a lot more than 1244 people coming home like this; think about them as well as you consider what people are sacrificing for us over in Iraq. Below is a New England Journal of Medicine photo essay on what surgeons are seeing in the field in Iraq. It's great that these people are surviving, but that doesn't always mean they are the lucky ones. (Warning - not for the faint of heart.) http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/24/2476?query=TOC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #55 December 9, 2004 QuoteOh, and by the way. No one here idolizes people killing americans. Most people with a bit of common sense idolizes people fighting to defend their country. Don´t you? isn´t it your job to defend your country? In your book, insurgent should be heroes. These people aren't fighting to defend their country, they aren't just killing americans, they are killing innocent civilians, on purpose, and attacking the iraqis who volunteer as police, to protect innocents from criminals, what kind of a fuckin hero is that. i haven't gone a day since i've been here without hearing a firefight in the distance from insurgents trying to take over police stations and attacking the iraqi national guard at their checkpoints and in their homes. they kill the families of iraqis that work for us, these poeple are trying to earn a living to support their family and they lose their family for doing so. these aren't freedom fighters, they are simply people who hate us because we are americans and are willing to take the lives of all those who hold the same beliefs. How is killing relief workers being a freedom fighter. we are here to help these people. WE are the freedom fightersHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #56 December 9, 2004 believe it or not, some of them are fighting because the last guy who kicked their door in, handcuffed their mother, ransacked their house and interogated their father and brothers had an american flag on his shoulder... we have gone from the fanatics hating us for who were are to creating citizens (of the country WE INVADED) who hate us for what we do...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #57 December 9, 2004 Quotebelieve it or not, some of them are fighting because the last guy who kicked their door in, handcuffed their mother, ransacked their house and interogated their father and brothers had an american flag on his shoulder... we have gone from the fanatics hating us for who were are to creating citizens (of the country WE INVADED) who hate us for what we do... This is the "domino effect" once in motion it cascades, so it seems, forever. The mideast has felt it for centuries. Tribes hold grudges forever and these feelings are passed down for generations. The mideast has held a grudge against the US since the creation of Isreal. Google it, check it out"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #58 December 9, 2004 Quoteheld a grudge against the US since the creation of Isreal. Google it, check it out But why? The US did not create Israel, the UN did, and the UK had more to do with its creation than the US did. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #59 December 9, 2004 Quotebelieve it or not, some of them are fighting because the last guy who kicked their door in, handcuffed their mother, ransacked their house and interogated their father and brothers had an american flag on his shoulder... reply] I do agree with you in the sense that some of what we have done here has created some enemies, but we don't kick in ranom doors, we go into homes and mosques for a reason and it takes a lot of work, to make sure we don't invade the wrong home. sometimes that work sends us through the wrong door, and we do everything possible to make up for our mistake, including paying for damages, and helping clean up what mess we madeHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freethefly 6 #60 December 9, 2004 Soley because we have gave Isreal support since its creation. The PLO recognized this and to their credit they have had a "hands off policy" towards the US. Others, unfortunately do not recognize that policy and pass that ill feeling down the bloodlines for generations. The PLO utilize hands off soley because Isreal is the easier target and would not welcome a face to face conflict with the US. Her is a link that concerns the "domino effect" the way US policy would like to see it run. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2935969.stm"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #61 December 9, 2004 i can personally recount instances where that has not happened, and while we may have the best intentions, they are not always followed.....both in the pre-planning (always blamed on 'bad intel' even when they were simply on the wrong street ) and in apologies afterwards.. its not as if hand receipts are often given, or tracked after the fact when they are.....and EVERY SINGLE document, photo and money (no real banks remember, people DO keep everything they own 'under the matress') and all is taken and never returned.. saying 'i'm sorry' doesnt mean much.. it wouldnt mean much to me either if the Canadians had done it to my home... and family pride and honor is a MUCH bigger deal in the Mid East than in the majority of western cultures..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #62 December 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteheld a grudge against the US since the creation of Isreal. Google it, check it out But why? The US did not create Israel, the UN did, and the UK had more to do with its creation than the US did. J Follow the money and weapons We're trying to stop the flow of funds to OBL and others like him because their not nice people and want to hurts us. The U.S was/is the major source of funding to Isreal for their weapons and economy. Some people in the middle east think the Isreals aren't nice people and want to hurt them. So by association we support isreal with no strings attached and turn a blind eye to their heavy handed polices with their neighbors. There wa a picture of a tee shirt on another tread that showed north america split between Canada and Isrealand Same thing happened in Iran we supported the Shaw sp? of Iran with weapons and foreign aid beause he was a anti commie. However he delt with his citzens in a heavy handed manner. After We got kicked out of Iran we help Iraq with their war against Iran. Our enemies enemy is our friend theory of foreign aid. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #63 December 9, 2004 To all of you who'd like to think of the "terrorists in their own country" as freedom fighters: GQ_jumper said it best already... these people you admire for "defending their country against a US invasion" have killed WAY more of their own people, civilians, contractors, and police than they have killed the great satan US's troops. Your viewing them as defenders of ANYTHING is despicable, and if at some level you don't see that, it's more than a little sick. It's also funny to hear the same group of people here calling these terrorists "freedom fighters", bitch about the displaying of anything relating to God in our own government. You do realize that if these jack-offs had their way, anyone in Iraq that didn't believe as they do would be killed, right? On one side, you hate the inclusion of God in society and on the other, you try to glorify people who you (WRONGLY) think are "freedom fighters" when they'd do much worse than we could imagine to any "unbelievers". The hypocrisy is ludicrous.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 03CLS 0 #64 December 9, 2004 Thanks GW for the bodies. What a DICK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #65 December 9, 2004 quiet the broad brush you have there..... nice way to gloss over the real reasons why the majority of the insurgents are fighting against us...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #66 December 9, 2004 Ignore what I said, but you know it's true. My brush would seem no broader than yours in saying that these people who are killing MORE IRAQIS THAN US TROOPS are somehow, in some demented mental rationalization, "freedom fighters".Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #67 December 9, 2004 Quotereal reasons why the majority of the insurgents are fighting against us... So what are those? How do you know? My opinion is that the majority of them are fighting because they have lost their favored position with the government, or they feel they have no place at the table... that's based on where they are concentrated... you don't see huge problems in the South, or in the Kurd areas... are some of them fighting becuase we kicked in their door, probably... but I don't think it is the majority... and lets not forget about the ones that aren't even Iraqi... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #68 December 9, 2004 what i know is you have no clue about the motivations of those fighting against us, but instead buy whole parcel the adminstrations spin on it..... their 'acceptable loss stand ard' is completely different from ours.. remember this is the culture that believes martyrs for the cause all go to heaven....we are attempting to change some of the fundamental values of their culture to more closely align with ours... some of the people are all for that, but as a great many of them get their marching orders from their religious and tribal leaders, many of the ones who were accepting the changes earlier are now rebelling against them... but dont let reality interfere with your preconceptions... unless of course you happen to be the POTUS. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #69 December 9, 2004 QuoteQuotereal reasons why the majority of the insurgents are fighting against us... So what are those? How do you know? My opinion is that the majority of them are fighting because they have lost their favored position with the government, or they feel they have no place at the table... that's based on where they are concentrated... you don't see huge problems in the South, or in the Kurd areas... are some of them fighting becuase we kicked in their door, probably... but I don't think it is the majority... and lets not forget about the ones that aren't even Iraqi... maybe you should read a few more reports... about say Mosul?? where exactly is that???____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #70 December 9, 2004 Quoteabout say Mosul?? where exactly is that??? Well, Mosul is in the North, but is not entirely Kurdish... When did those problems start anyway? Seems like it was around the time we went in to Falluja... And since its not likely to be the Kurds, and we haven't been bombing or kicking in doors up there, it must be Sunnis that don't feel they have a place at the table, or ex-regiem cronies... So again, who are the majority of insurgents, and how do you know? My postings are my opinion, as I have stated, but the indicators seem to support my opinions. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #71 December 9, 2004 Quoteyou have no clue about the motivations Nor do you, lest you went to one of their recruiting rallies, which doesn't seem too likely... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #72 December 9, 2004 Quotewhat i know is you have no clue about the motivations of those fighting against us, but instead buy whole parcel the adminstrations spin on it..... You just ASSumed something that I never said. Point out to me where I claimed I knew their motivations? Right, didn't happen. Check your bullshit with someone else. Quotetheir 'acceptable loss stand ard' is completely different from ours.. And just after you clue me in that I don't know anything about anything... you grace us with your 100% accurate knowledge of the situation. Awesome. Quotebut dont let reality interfere with your preconceptions... Ohhhhh, is that what I was doing when I merely pointed out that people like you don't seem to grasp that these beloved "freedom fighters" of yours are killing their own people? Oh I forget, that's okay because Allah told them it was cool.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,076 #73 December 10, 2004 Last warning on this thread. Stop calling people asses etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #74 December 10, 2004 when you go spend some time on the ground, when you participate in daily briefings, and talk to those who are STILL OVER there doing the job you claim to be so knowledgeable about, EVERYDAY let me know ok?? QuoteOh I forget, that's okay because Allah told them it was cool. it IS ok with them... it is perfectly acceptable to sacrifice their own to win. WE have a different standard of conduct, and as long as you and others like you in our administration attempt to view their motivations through the lens of OUR culture. We will continue to fail to grasp their actual motivations and goals or to sway the majority of the people that our cause is just.... since you obviously you know soooo much more about the mind set of our enemy, maybe we can offer you a job in intelligence? after all our fearless leader likes to think the same way.. and we can clearly see how well that is panning out......____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #75 December 10, 2004 Quotewhen you go spend some time on the ground, when you participate in daily briefings, and talk to those who are STILL OVER there doing the job you claim to be so knowledgeable about, EVERYDAY let me know ok?? Don't presume that I don't have friends in Afghanistan and Iraq. And again, what does that have to do with what I said about fact that terrorists over there are killing their own people more often than our troops? Perhaps you're mistaking me with Josh... Captain Hill, just in case you want to go down that alley. Quoteit IS ok with them... it is perfectly acceptable to sacrifice their own to win. Is that acceptable to YOU? Do you think it's acceptable to the dead or their families? Muslim or not, I'll bet it isn't. QuoteWe will continue to fail to grasp their actual motivations and goals or to sway the majority of the people that our cause is just.... Oh I understand their motivation that they think it's worth killing 100 of their own people to get at one troop... I just, like many many other people, think it is barbaric and unacceptable behavior. QuoteWe will continue to fail to grasp their actual motivations and goals or to sway the majority of the people that our cause is just... Since you're the authority here, tell us just how you will "understand" your way to ending the Iraqi... or entire middle east problem. Quotesince you obviously you know soooo much more about the mind set of our enemy, maybe we can offer you a job in intelligence? I never claimed to know more about their mindset than anyone. I see what they're doing, I see that apparently to them (and some people here) that is perfectly okay. It doesn't take me understanding someone's entire culture and background to know what is wrong. If only we could have spent more time "understanding" the nazis, maybe we could have avoided fighting and killing by letting them do their thing, within boundaries, of course. Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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freethefly 6 #60 December 9, 2004 Soley because we have gave Isreal support since its creation. The PLO recognized this and to their credit they have had a "hands off policy" towards the US. Others, unfortunately do not recognize that policy and pass that ill feeling down the bloodlines for generations. The PLO utilize hands off soley because Isreal is the easier target and would not welcome a face to face conflict with the US. Her is a link that concerns the "domino effect" the way US policy would like to see it run. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2935969.stm"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #61 December 9, 2004 i can personally recount instances where that has not happened, and while we may have the best intentions, they are not always followed.....both in the pre-planning (always blamed on 'bad intel' even when they were simply on the wrong street ) and in apologies afterwards.. its not as if hand receipts are often given, or tracked after the fact when they are.....and EVERY SINGLE document, photo and money (no real banks remember, people DO keep everything they own 'under the matress') and all is taken and never returned.. saying 'i'm sorry' doesnt mean much.. it wouldnt mean much to me either if the Canadians had done it to my home... and family pride and honor is a MUCH bigger deal in the Mid East than in the majority of western cultures..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #62 December 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteheld a grudge against the US since the creation of Isreal. Google it, check it out But why? The US did not create Israel, the UN did, and the UK had more to do with its creation than the US did. J Follow the money and weapons We're trying to stop the flow of funds to OBL and others like him because their not nice people and want to hurts us. The U.S was/is the major source of funding to Isreal for their weapons and economy. Some people in the middle east think the Isreals aren't nice people and want to hurt them. So by association we support isreal with no strings attached and turn a blind eye to their heavy handed polices with their neighbors. There wa a picture of a tee shirt on another tread that showed north america split between Canada and Isrealand Same thing happened in Iran we supported the Shaw sp? of Iran with weapons and foreign aid beause he was a anti commie. However he delt with his citzens in a heavy handed manner. After We got kicked out of Iran we help Iraq with their war against Iran. Our enemies enemy is our friend theory of foreign aid. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #63 December 9, 2004 To all of you who'd like to think of the "terrorists in their own country" as freedom fighters: GQ_jumper said it best already... these people you admire for "defending their country against a US invasion" have killed WAY more of their own people, civilians, contractors, and police than they have killed the great satan US's troops. Your viewing them as defenders of ANYTHING is despicable, and if at some level you don't see that, it's more than a little sick. It's also funny to hear the same group of people here calling these terrorists "freedom fighters", bitch about the displaying of anything relating to God in our own government. You do realize that if these jack-offs had their way, anyone in Iraq that didn't believe as they do would be killed, right? On one side, you hate the inclusion of God in society and on the other, you try to glorify people who you (WRONGLY) think are "freedom fighters" when they'd do much worse than we could imagine to any "unbelievers". The hypocrisy is ludicrous.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
03CLS 0 #64 December 9, 2004 Thanks GW for the bodies. What a DICK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #65 December 9, 2004 quiet the broad brush you have there..... nice way to gloss over the real reasons why the majority of the insurgents are fighting against us...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #66 December 9, 2004 Ignore what I said, but you know it's true. My brush would seem no broader than yours in saying that these people who are killing MORE IRAQIS THAN US TROOPS are somehow, in some demented mental rationalization, "freedom fighters".Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #67 December 9, 2004 Quotereal reasons why the majority of the insurgents are fighting against us... So what are those? How do you know? My opinion is that the majority of them are fighting because they have lost their favored position with the government, or they feel they have no place at the table... that's based on where they are concentrated... you don't see huge problems in the South, or in the Kurd areas... are some of them fighting becuase we kicked in their door, probably... but I don't think it is the majority... and lets not forget about the ones that aren't even Iraqi... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #68 December 9, 2004 what i know is you have no clue about the motivations of those fighting against us, but instead buy whole parcel the adminstrations spin on it..... their 'acceptable loss stand ard' is completely different from ours.. remember this is the culture that believes martyrs for the cause all go to heaven....we are attempting to change some of the fundamental values of their culture to more closely align with ours... some of the people are all for that, but as a great many of them get their marching orders from their religious and tribal leaders, many of the ones who were accepting the changes earlier are now rebelling against them... but dont let reality interfere with your preconceptions... unless of course you happen to be the POTUS. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #69 December 9, 2004 QuoteQuotereal reasons why the majority of the insurgents are fighting against us... So what are those? How do you know? My opinion is that the majority of them are fighting because they have lost their favored position with the government, or they feel they have no place at the table... that's based on where they are concentrated... you don't see huge problems in the South, or in the Kurd areas... are some of them fighting becuase we kicked in their door, probably... but I don't think it is the majority... and lets not forget about the ones that aren't even Iraqi... maybe you should read a few more reports... about say Mosul?? where exactly is that???____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #70 December 9, 2004 Quoteabout say Mosul?? where exactly is that??? Well, Mosul is in the North, but is not entirely Kurdish... When did those problems start anyway? Seems like it was around the time we went in to Falluja... And since its not likely to be the Kurds, and we haven't been bombing or kicking in doors up there, it must be Sunnis that don't feel they have a place at the table, or ex-regiem cronies... So again, who are the majority of insurgents, and how do you know? My postings are my opinion, as I have stated, but the indicators seem to support my opinions. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #71 December 9, 2004 Quoteyou have no clue about the motivations Nor do you, lest you went to one of their recruiting rallies, which doesn't seem too likely... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #72 December 9, 2004 Quotewhat i know is you have no clue about the motivations of those fighting against us, but instead buy whole parcel the adminstrations spin on it..... You just ASSumed something that I never said. Point out to me where I claimed I knew their motivations? Right, didn't happen. Check your bullshit with someone else. Quotetheir 'acceptable loss stand ard' is completely different from ours.. And just after you clue me in that I don't know anything about anything... you grace us with your 100% accurate knowledge of the situation. Awesome. Quotebut dont let reality interfere with your preconceptions... Ohhhhh, is that what I was doing when I merely pointed out that people like you don't seem to grasp that these beloved "freedom fighters" of yours are killing their own people? Oh I forget, that's okay because Allah told them it was cool.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #73 December 10, 2004 Last warning on this thread. Stop calling people asses etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #74 December 10, 2004 when you go spend some time on the ground, when you participate in daily briefings, and talk to those who are STILL OVER there doing the job you claim to be so knowledgeable about, EVERYDAY let me know ok?? QuoteOh I forget, that's okay because Allah told them it was cool. it IS ok with them... it is perfectly acceptable to sacrifice their own to win. WE have a different standard of conduct, and as long as you and others like you in our administration attempt to view their motivations through the lens of OUR culture. We will continue to fail to grasp their actual motivations and goals or to sway the majority of the people that our cause is just.... since you obviously you know soooo much more about the mind set of our enemy, maybe we can offer you a job in intelligence? after all our fearless leader likes to think the same way.. and we can clearly see how well that is panning out......____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #75 December 10, 2004 Quotewhen you go spend some time on the ground, when you participate in daily briefings, and talk to those who are STILL OVER there doing the job you claim to be so knowledgeable about, EVERYDAY let me know ok?? Don't presume that I don't have friends in Afghanistan and Iraq. And again, what does that have to do with what I said about fact that terrorists over there are killing their own people more often than our troops? Perhaps you're mistaking me with Josh... Captain Hill, just in case you want to go down that alley. Quoteit IS ok with them... it is perfectly acceptable to sacrifice their own to win. Is that acceptable to YOU? Do you think it's acceptable to the dead or their families? Muslim or not, I'll bet it isn't. QuoteWe will continue to fail to grasp their actual motivations and goals or to sway the majority of the people that our cause is just.... Oh I understand their motivation that they think it's worth killing 100 of their own people to get at one troop... I just, like many many other people, think it is barbaric and unacceptable behavior. QuoteWe will continue to fail to grasp their actual motivations and goals or to sway the majority of the people that our cause is just... Since you're the authority here, tell us just how you will "understand" your way to ending the Iraqi... or entire middle east problem. Quotesince you obviously you know soooo much more about the mind set of our enemy, maybe we can offer you a job in intelligence? I never claimed to know more about their mindset than anyone. I see what they're doing, I see that apparently to them (and some people here) that is perfectly okay. It doesn't take me understanding someone's entire culture and background to know what is wrong. If only we could have spent more time "understanding" the nazis, maybe we could have avoided fighting and killing by letting them do their thing, within boundaries, of course. Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
