slug 1 #76 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. I don't understand where you get the idea the armor isn't being supplied. Apparently it is being supplied as quickly as it can be manufactured.Quote In your previous post there's the following statement "Armor Holdings (AH:NYSE) said it could boost its output of "up-armored" Humvees by as much as 22 percent per month to 550 from 450" This increaseof 22% in the rate of production from what I'm hearing was never discussed until after Rummy was put on the spot at the town hall meeting. Also this doesn't mean that the army isn't increasing the total number of Humvee's ordered just the numbered that would be delivered/month. The cost of level one vichical is labor, materials, over head and profit. If the acelerated delivery rate results is achieved then the only increase in cost would be OT for labor. So I don't think the shortage of armored Humvees is a money problem but a failure to communicate between the buyer (pentagon) and supplier (Armor Holding). IOW A FUBAR by a REMF Anything the General says is suspect because if asked he's by Rummy how his new suit looks he's not going to tell Rummy (the king) that he's not wearing any cloth's. Not a smart move for career advancement. OTOH the G.I. who Discussed the problem at the town hall meeting had nothing to lose by putting rummy on the spot he was going to Iraq, and wasn't a career officer who was looking forward to his next promotion. In the future i suspect to prevent a repeat of this embarasing the Sec of the Def there won't be any more taped town hall mtgs. or all questions will be submitted in advance in writing thru official channels, or there will be some ringers in the audience with the Questions that rummy wants to hear. Rummy wants 100% execution with Zero negative indicator and asks the General how thing are going "Wonderful sir". R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #77 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. I don't understand where you get the idea the armor isn't being supplied. Apparently it is being supplied as quickly as it can be manufactured. http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20041209-1765.html That's not what one manufacturer said on the radio last week. He said his plant could supply a lot more, but it hadn't been ordered.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #78 December 13, 2004 Ah.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #79 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. I don't understand where you get the idea the armor isn't being supplied. Apparently it is being supplied as quickly as it can be manufactured. http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20041209-1765.html That's not what one manufacturer said on the radio last week. He said his plant could supply a lot more, but it hadn't been ordered. Which manufacturer? Please provide a link. I'm very surprised the press hasn't jumped on an inconsistency like this. Do you really believe that Specialist Wilson was actually scavenging a landfill in Iraq for parts to use as armor on a Humvee? Do you really believe there is scrap metal capable of protecting a Humvee in a landfill? There is a trade-off for adding more armor to a Humvee in performance and speed. Not all Humvees used in Iraq and Afghanistan need any protection at all because they are used in non-combat areas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #80 December 13, 2004 QuoteAh.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? "Mission Accomplished", May 2003. Looks like a pretty BIG failure to anticipate to me, starting at the very top. News Flash: The Sun does NOT shine from Rumsfeld's ass, nor from Bush's.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #81 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAh.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? Quote"Mission Accomplished", May 2003. Looks like a pretty BIG failure to anticipate to me, starting at the very top. Need a stick to beat that horse some more? The sign was put up by those on the ship and signaled the end of "Major Combat" Do we need to define "Major Combat" again? QuoteNews Flash: The Sun does NOT shine from Rumsfeld's ass, nor from Bush's. Nor is the Bush Administration the reincarnation of the Devil out to enslave you, lock you in chains and force you to pray to an evil God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #82 December 13, 2004 QuoteWhich manufacturer? Please provide a link. I'm very surprised the press hasn't jumped on an inconsistency like this. Do you really believe that Specialist Wilson was actually scavenging a landfill in Iraq for parts to use as armor on a Humvee? Do you really believe there is scrap metal capable of protecting a Humvee in a landfill? There is a trade-off for adding more armor to a Humvee in performance and speed. Not all Humvees used in Iraq and Afghanistan need any protection at all because they are used in non-combat areas. CNN had an interview with him. His company was based out of Arizona if I remember. They also mentioned that the center that armors the fuel trucks and cargo trucks just resumed 24*7 operations in the last month after running at a reduced rate for a while. Ahhh... had to search CNN for the link but here it is: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/10/pentagon.armor/index.html I guess his company only produces kits and can go from 300 to 600. CNN also did a piece about 3 weeks ago where they were showing mechanic's plasma cutting huge sheets of metal into their own version of armor kits. The piece that the tech was making when they were interviewing him was a back protector for manning the .50 cal machine gun in a Humvee. Basically he was creating a big wrap around sheet to protect the back and head of the gunner. The same unit was showing off some of their other modifications. One was sheet metal "boxes" welded on the sides and top of the humvee. You could tell it was not a production job since it had plasma cutting marks and edges. The lines were fair from straight.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #83 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAh.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? Quote"Mission Accomplished", May 2003. Looks like a pretty BIG failure to anticipate to me, starting at the very top. Need a stick to beat that horse some more? The sign was put up by those on the ship and signaled the end of "Major Combat" Do we need to define "Major Combat" again? . 1. The White House made the sign. 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #84 December 13, 2004 QuoteAnything the General says is suspect because if asked he's by Rummy how his new suit looks he's not going to tell Rummy (the king) that he's not wearing any cloth's. Not a smart move for career advancement. Having worked directly for General Whitcomb, I can tell you that he is not a smoke blower... If Rummy asked him how his new suit looked, and he was naked, Whitcomb would tell him he was soup sandwich... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #85 December 13, 2004 Quote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #86 December 13, 2004 QuoteFollowed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, That's understandable...but this and many other issues were brought up by senior officials BEFORE the war. Those who brought up these issues were ignrored, marginalized, and forced out of their positions. That's not a mistake, that's a systematic blight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #87 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J It was a press conference called by the president and announced by his press secretary to be a "victory speech". Members of his pr team made up the banner and had it placed on the ship for the photo op. The links have been posted here many times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #88 December 13, 2004 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4760238/ QuoteBush said in October that the White House had nothing to do with the banner; a spokesman later clarified that the ship’s crew asked for the sign and that the White House staff had it made by a private vendor. It was not clear who paid for the sign.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #89 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J "The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff ..." -- President George W. Bush, 10/28/2003 " they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so" -- White House Spokesman Scott McClellan, 10/29/2003... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #90 December 13, 2004 QuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #91 December 13, 2004 OK, from that article... the crew asked for the sign, the White House getting it for them... that is different than the President had the sign put up... anyone with half a brain knew the war wasn't over at that point. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #92 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Feeble. The Bush administration had been preparing for war with Iraq from the day it took office. We are talking making armor plate here, not the Manhattan Project or the D-Day Invasion (both of which were completed in less time than Bush has been President)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #93 December 13, 2004 QuoteDo you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Do you think maybe if his fiscal policies made any kind of sense he would have had more support, from his own party who controls congress? QuoteMaybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. You're right...Clinton went to far with the cuts. Bad Clinton. Funny how he didn't have to battle the republican congress too hard for those cuts. Oh wait...when Bush has problems passing a budget it's the democrats fault, even though they are the minority. When Clinton successfully passes a budget he gets all the blame/credit. Except when we are talking about budget surplus, then that was thanks to the republicans in congress. Do I have the partisan line down right? Clinton made mistakes. Clinton is no longer in office. Bush has made mistakes, is still in office, won't own up to any of them, and won't try to correct any of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #94 December 13, 2004 Quote 1. The White House made the sign. Prove your cite - show me a link where that sign came from the White House. Quote 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses. The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time. A question: We (in general) don't question you on physics problems, as we know you have the experience in that field. So, WHY do you persist in telling those of us who HAVE served in the military what the meaning behind everything the military does is?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #95 December 13, 2004 [reply"Armor Holdings (AH:NYSE) said it could boost its output of "up-armored" Humvees by as much as 22 percent per month to 550 from 450" This increaseof 22% in the rate of production from what I'm hearing was never discussed until after Rummy was put on the spot at the town hall meeting. What if 450 is the correct level of planning and upping production to 550 is just public relations as a direct result of the forum comments? That would equal unnecessary spending. Of course the supplier will go on record in a position which will increase their profits. Briliant move. Most of the lefties will have a hard time here - who do they hate more, the government or a military contractor? All these postings assume "more is better". Typical. Why should that be correct vs just working to the plan? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #96 December 13, 2004 Quote"The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff ..." -- President George W. Bush, 10/28/2003 " they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so" -- White House Spokesman Scott McClellan, 10/29/2003 OK so the banner was the ships idea, and they asked the WH to make it? So fucking what? If a ship was returning from a combat tour and they called me to see if I could hop over to the local "sign mart" and get something made for them...I would. That does not make it MY idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #97 December 13, 2004 QuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. Who is not supporting more armor for the troops? I just don't want to hang people for "not being ready to go to war". Since NO ONE is every ready to go to war. I doubt anyone would want to pay for what it would cost to have a peace time Army ready to go to war all the time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #98 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote 1. The White House made the sign. Prove your cite - show me a link where that sign came from the White House. Quote 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses. The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time. A question: We (in general) don't question you on physics problems, as we know you have the experience in that field. So, WHY do you persist in telling those of us who HAVE served in the military what the meaning behind everything the military does is? I bet I know more about armor than you do. Besides, this is about political decision making, not military matters. It doesn't take a Staff Sergeant to recognize piss poor planning.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #99 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. Who is not supporting more armor for the troops? I just don't want to hang people for "not being ready to go to war". Since NO ONE is every ready to go to war. Since this was an optional war, why did Bush choose to go to war when not ready? That takes it from the realm of mere incompetence to the realm of criminal negligence.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #100 December 13, 2004 QuoteI bet I know more about armor than you do. You ever worn it? Ever shot at it? Ever get issued a set? Or is all your knoledge based on math? Cause, Ive worn it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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kallend 2,106 #77 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. I don't understand where you get the idea the armor isn't being supplied. Apparently it is being supplied as quickly as it can be manufactured. http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20041209-1765.html That's not what one manufacturer said on the radio last week. He said his plant could supply a lot more, but it hadn't been ordered.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #78 December 13, 2004 Ah.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #79 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. I don't understand where you get the idea the armor isn't being supplied. Apparently it is being supplied as quickly as it can be manufactured. http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20041209-1765.html That's not what one manufacturer said on the radio last week. He said his plant could supply a lot more, but it hadn't been ordered. Which manufacturer? Please provide a link. I'm very surprised the press hasn't jumped on an inconsistency like this. Do you really believe that Specialist Wilson was actually scavenging a landfill in Iraq for parts to use as armor on a Humvee? Do you really believe there is scrap metal capable of protecting a Humvee in a landfill? There is a trade-off for adding more armor to a Humvee in performance and speed. Not all Humvees used in Iraq and Afghanistan need any protection at all because they are used in non-combat areas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #80 December 13, 2004 QuoteAh.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? "Mission Accomplished", May 2003. Looks like a pretty BIG failure to anticipate to me, starting at the very top. News Flash: The Sun does NOT shine from Rumsfeld's ass, nor from Bush's.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #81 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAh.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? Quote"Mission Accomplished", May 2003. Looks like a pretty BIG failure to anticipate to me, starting at the very top. Need a stick to beat that horse some more? The sign was put up by those on the ship and signaled the end of "Major Combat" Do we need to define "Major Combat" again? QuoteNews Flash: The Sun does NOT shine from Rumsfeld's ass, nor from Bush's. Nor is the Bush Administration the reincarnation of the Devil out to enslave you, lock you in chains and force you to pray to an evil God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #82 December 13, 2004 QuoteWhich manufacturer? Please provide a link. I'm very surprised the press hasn't jumped on an inconsistency like this. Do you really believe that Specialist Wilson was actually scavenging a landfill in Iraq for parts to use as armor on a Humvee? Do you really believe there is scrap metal capable of protecting a Humvee in a landfill? There is a trade-off for adding more armor to a Humvee in performance and speed. Not all Humvees used in Iraq and Afghanistan need any protection at all because they are used in non-combat areas. CNN had an interview with him. His company was based out of Arizona if I remember. They also mentioned that the center that armors the fuel trucks and cargo trucks just resumed 24*7 operations in the last month after running at a reduced rate for a while. Ahhh... had to search CNN for the link but here it is: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/10/pentagon.armor/index.html I guess his company only produces kits and can go from 300 to 600. CNN also did a piece about 3 weeks ago where they were showing mechanic's plasma cutting huge sheets of metal into their own version of armor kits. The piece that the tech was making when they were interviewing him was a back protector for manning the .50 cal machine gun in a Humvee. Basically he was creating a big wrap around sheet to protect the back and head of the gunner. The same unit was showing off some of their other modifications. One was sheet metal "boxes" welded on the sides and top of the humvee. You could tell it was not a production job since it had plasma cutting marks and edges. The lines were fair from straight.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #83 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAh.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? Quote"Mission Accomplished", May 2003. Looks like a pretty BIG failure to anticipate to me, starting at the very top. Need a stick to beat that horse some more? The sign was put up by those on the ship and signaled the end of "Major Combat" Do we need to define "Major Combat" again? . 1. The White House made the sign. 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #84 December 13, 2004 QuoteAnything the General says is suspect because if asked he's by Rummy how his new suit looks he's not going to tell Rummy (the king) that he's not wearing any cloth's. Not a smart move for career advancement. Having worked directly for General Whitcomb, I can tell you that he is not a smoke blower... If Rummy asked him how his new suit looked, and he was naked, Whitcomb would tell him he was soup sandwich... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #85 December 13, 2004 Quote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #86 December 13, 2004 QuoteFollowed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, That's understandable...but this and many other issues were brought up by senior officials BEFORE the war. Those who brought up these issues were ignrored, marginalized, and forced out of their positions. That's not a mistake, that's a systematic blight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #87 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J It was a press conference called by the president and announced by his press secretary to be a "victory speech". Members of his pr team made up the banner and had it placed on the ship for the photo op. The links have been posted here many times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #88 December 13, 2004 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4760238/ QuoteBush said in October that the White House had nothing to do with the banner; a spokesman later clarified that the ship’s crew asked for the sign and that the White House staff had it made by a private vendor. It was not clear who paid for the sign.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #89 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J "The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff ..." -- President George W. Bush, 10/28/2003 " they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so" -- White House Spokesman Scott McClellan, 10/29/2003... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #90 December 13, 2004 QuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #91 December 13, 2004 OK, from that article... the crew asked for the sign, the White House getting it for them... that is different than the President had the sign put up... anyone with half a brain knew the war wasn't over at that point. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #92 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Feeble. The Bush administration had been preparing for war with Iraq from the day it took office. We are talking making armor plate here, not the Manhattan Project or the D-Day Invasion (both of which were completed in less time than Bush has been President)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #93 December 13, 2004 QuoteDo you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Do you think maybe if his fiscal policies made any kind of sense he would have had more support, from his own party who controls congress? QuoteMaybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. You're right...Clinton went to far with the cuts. Bad Clinton. Funny how he didn't have to battle the republican congress too hard for those cuts. Oh wait...when Bush has problems passing a budget it's the democrats fault, even though they are the minority. When Clinton successfully passes a budget he gets all the blame/credit. Except when we are talking about budget surplus, then that was thanks to the republicans in congress. Do I have the partisan line down right? Clinton made mistakes. Clinton is no longer in office. Bush has made mistakes, is still in office, won't own up to any of them, and won't try to correct any of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #94 December 13, 2004 Quote 1. The White House made the sign. Prove your cite - show me a link where that sign came from the White House. Quote 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses. The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time. A question: We (in general) don't question you on physics problems, as we know you have the experience in that field. So, WHY do you persist in telling those of us who HAVE served in the military what the meaning behind everything the military does is?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #95 December 13, 2004 [reply"Armor Holdings (AH:NYSE) said it could boost its output of "up-armored" Humvees by as much as 22 percent per month to 550 from 450" This increaseof 22% in the rate of production from what I'm hearing was never discussed until after Rummy was put on the spot at the town hall meeting. What if 450 is the correct level of planning and upping production to 550 is just public relations as a direct result of the forum comments? That would equal unnecessary spending. Of course the supplier will go on record in a position which will increase their profits. Briliant move. Most of the lefties will have a hard time here - who do they hate more, the government or a military contractor? All these postings assume "more is better". Typical. Why should that be correct vs just working to the plan? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #96 December 13, 2004 Quote"The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff ..." -- President George W. Bush, 10/28/2003 " they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so" -- White House Spokesman Scott McClellan, 10/29/2003 OK so the banner was the ships idea, and they asked the WH to make it? So fucking what? If a ship was returning from a combat tour and they called me to see if I could hop over to the local "sign mart" and get something made for them...I would. That does not make it MY idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #97 December 13, 2004 QuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. Who is not supporting more armor for the troops? I just don't want to hang people for "not being ready to go to war". Since NO ONE is every ready to go to war. I doubt anyone would want to pay for what it would cost to have a peace time Army ready to go to war all the time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #98 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote 1. The White House made the sign. Prove your cite - show me a link where that sign came from the White House. Quote 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses. The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time. A question: We (in general) don't question you on physics problems, as we know you have the experience in that field. So, WHY do you persist in telling those of us who HAVE served in the military what the meaning behind everything the military does is? I bet I know more about armor than you do. Besides, this is about political decision making, not military matters. It doesn't take a Staff Sergeant to recognize piss poor planning.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #99 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. Who is not supporting more armor for the troops? I just don't want to hang people for "not being ready to go to war". Since NO ONE is every ready to go to war. Since this was an optional war, why did Bush choose to go to war when not ready? That takes it from the realm of mere incompetence to the realm of criminal negligence.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #100 December 13, 2004 QuoteI bet I know more about armor than you do. You ever worn it? Ever shot at it? Ever get issued a set? Or is all your knoledge based on math? Cause, Ive worn it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next Page 4 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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PhreeZone 20 #82 December 13, 2004 QuoteWhich manufacturer? Please provide a link. I'm very surprised the press hasn't jumped on an inconsistency like this. Do you really believe that Specialist Wilson was actually scavenging a landfill in Iraq for parts to use as armor on a Humvee? Do you really believe there is scrap metal capable of protecting a Humvee in a landfill? There is a trade-off for adding more armor to a Humvee in performance and speed. Not all Humvees used in Iraq and Afghanistan need any protection at all because they are used in non-combat areas. CNN had an interview with him. His company was based out of Arizona if I remember. They also mentioned that the center that armors the fuel trucks and cargo trucks just resumed 24*7 operations in the last month after running at a reduced rate for a while. Ahhh... had to search CNN for the link but here it is: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/10/pentagon.armor/index.html I guess his company only produces kits and can go from 300 to 600. CNN also did a piece about 3 weeks ago where they were showing mechanic's plasma cutting huge sheets of metal into their own version of armor kits. The piece that the tech was making when they were interviewing him was a back protector for manning the .50 cal machine gun in a Humvee. Basically he was creating a big wrap around sheet to protect the back and head of the gunner. The same unit was showing off some of their other modifications. One was sheet metal "boxes" welded on the sides and top of the humvee. You could tell it was not a production job since it had plasma cutting marks and edges. The lines were fair from straight.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #83 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAh.. I see. The old "all Generals and anyone who has anything to do with the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars who will say and do anything to cover their ass and that of their boss". Followed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, they are nothing but a bunch of incompetent boobs". Nice simplistic little bow you tie around leaky airtight logic. (Sorry, I'm wrapping Christmas Presents, not holiday gifts). I wonder how many of us would compare in our endeavors if everything we did in life was measured against your yardstick? Quote"Mission Accomplished", May 2003. Looks like a pretty BIG failure to anticipate to me, starting at the very top. Need a stick to beat that horse some more? The sign was put up by those on the ship and signaled the end of "Major Combat" Do we need to define "Major Combat" again? . 1. The White House made the sign. 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #84 December 13, 2004 QuoteAnything the General says is suspect because if asked he's by Rummy how his new suit looks he's not going to tell Rummy (the king) that he's not wearing any cloth's. Not a smart move for career advancement. Having worked directly for General Whitcomb, I can tell you that he is not a smoke blower... If Rummy asked him how his new suit looked, and he was naked, Whitcomb would tell him he was soup sandwich... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #85 December 13, 2004 Quote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #86 December 13, 2004 QuoteFollowed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, That's understandable...but this and many other issues were brought up by senior officials BEFORE the war. Those who brought up these issues were ignrored, marginalized, and forced out of their positions. That's not a mistake, that's a systematic blight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #87 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J It was a press conference called by the president and announced by his press secretary to be a "victory speech". Members of his pr team made up the banner and had it placed on the ship for the photo op. The links have been posted here many times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #88 December 13, 2004 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4760238/ QuoteBush said in October that the White House had nothing to do with the banner; a spokesman later clarified that the ship’s crew asked for the sign and that the White House staff had it made by a private vendor. It was not clear who paid for the sign.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #89 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J "The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff ..." -- President George W. Bush, 10/28/2003 " they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so" -- White House Spokesman Scott McClellan, 10/29/2003... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #90 December 13, 2004 QuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #91 December 13, 2004 OK, from that article... the crew asked for the sign, the White House getting it for them... that is different than the President had the sign put up... anyone with half a brain knew the war wasn't over at that point. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #92 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Feeble. The Bush administration had been preparing for war with Iraq from the day it took office. We are talking making armor plate here, not the Manhattan Project or the D-Day Invasion (both of which were completed in less time than Bush has been President)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #93 December 13, 2004 QuoteDo you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Do you think maybe if his fiscal policies made any kind of sense he would have had more support, from his own party who controls congress? QuoteMaybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. You're right...Clinton went to far with the cuts. Bad Clinton. Funny how he didn't have to battle the republican congress too hard for those cuts. Oh wait...when Bush has problems passing a budget it's the democrats fault, even though they are the minority. When Clinton successfully passes a budget he gets all the blame/credit. Except when we are talking about budget surplus, then that was thanks to the republicans in congress. Do I have the partisan line down right? Clinton made mistakes. Clinton is no longer in office. Bush has made mistakes, is still in office, won't own up to any of them, and won't try to correct any of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #94 December 13, 2004 Quote 1. The White House made the sign. Prove your cite - show me a link where that sign came from the White House. Quote 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses. The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time. A question: We (in general) don't question you on physics problems, as we know you have the experience in that field. So, WHY do you persist in telling those of us who HAVE served in the military what the meaning behind everything the military does is?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #95 December 13, 2004 [reply"Armor Holdings (AH:NYSE) said it could boost its output of "up-armored" Humvees by as much as 22 percent per month to 550 from 450" This increaseof 22% in the rate of production from what I'm hearing was never discussed until after Rummy was put on the spot at the town hall meeting. What if 450 is the correct level of planning and upping production to 550 is just public relations as a direct result of the forum comments? That would equal unnecessary spending. Of course the supplier will go on record in a position which will increase their profits. Briliant move. Most of the lefties will have a hard time here - who do they hate more, the government or a military contractor? All these postings assume "more is better". Typical. Why should that be correct vs just working to the plan? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #84 December 13, 2004 QuoteAnything the General says is suspect because if asked he's by Rummy how his new suit looks he's not going to tell Rummy (the king) that he's not wearing any cloth's. Not a smart move for career advancement. Having worked directly for General Whitcomb, I can tell you that he is not a smoke blower... If Rummy asked him how his new suit looked, and he was naked, Whitcomb would tell him he was soup sandwich... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #85 December 13, 2004 Quote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #86 December 13, 2004 QuoteFollowed by the old "because they were unable to anticipate every problem before going to war, That's understandable...but this and many other issues were brought up by senior officials BEFORE the war. Those who brought up these issues were ignrored, marginalized, and forced out of their positions. That's not a mistake, that's a systematic blight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #87 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J It was a press conference called by the president and announced by his press secretary to be a "victory speech". Members of his pr team made up the banner and had it placed on the ship for the photo op. The links have been posted here many times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #88 December 13, 2004 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4760238/ QuoteBush said in October that the White House had nothing to do with the banner; a spokesman later clarified that the ship’s crew asked for the sign and that the White House staff had it made by a private vendor. It was not clear who paid for the sign.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #89 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote1. The White House made the sign. Are you sure? Got a link? It was my understanding that that was the ship's commander's doing, and that it is quite common for ships returing from action to hang such signs when they return to port. J "The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff ..." -- President George W. Bush, 10/28/2003 " they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so" -- White House Spokesman Scott McClellan, 10/29/2003... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #90 December 13, 2004 QuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #91 December 13, 2004 OK, from that article... the crew asked for the sign, the White House getting it for them... that is different than the President had the sign put up... anyone with half a brain knew the war wasn't over at that point. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #92 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAhhh.....now we come to the crux of the matter. Do you think that could have anything to do with fiscal policies such as tax cuts? Do you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Quote Do you think that the president could push for more funding instead of proclaiming that our troops have everything they need in order to paint a rosy picture? Do you think that maybe we could divert some money from producing new missle shields that are already obsolete, or from planned missions to mars, or space stations on the moon? See above for your answer to this one, too. Maybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. Maybe if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.... Feeble. The Bush administration had been preparing for war with Iraq from the day it took office. We are talking making armor plate here, not the Manhattan Project or the D-Day Invasion (both of which were completed in less time than Bush has been President)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #93 December 13, 2004 QuoteDo you think that could have anything to do with the President having to fight the Democrats in Congress for almost 2 years to get a budget passed? Do you think maybe if his fiscal policies made any kind of sense he would have had more support, from his own party who controls congress? QuoteMaybe if there hadn't been the massive cuts in the military and the Defense budget during the Clinton years, we would be in better shape. You're right...Clinton went to far with the cuts. Bad Clinton. Funny how he didn't have to battle the republican congress too hard for those cuts. Oh wait...when Bush has problems passing a budget it's the democrats fault, even though they are the minority. When Clinton successfully passes a budget he gets all the blame/credit. Except when we are talking about budget surplus, then that was thanks to the republicans in congress. Do I have the partisan line down right? Clinton made mistakes. Clinton is no longer in office. Bush has made mistakes, is still in office, won't own up to any of them, and won't try to correct any of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #94 December 13, 2004 Quote 1. The White House made the sign. Prove your cite - show me a link where that sign came from the White House. Quote 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses. The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time. A question: We (in general) don't question you on physics problems, as we know you have the experience in that field. So, WHY do you persist in telling those of us who HAVE served in the military what the meaning behind everything the military does is?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #95 December 13, 2004 [reply"Armor Holdings (AH:NYSE) said it could boost its output of "up-armored" Humvees by as much as 22 percent per month to 550 from 450" This increaseof 22% in the rate of production from what I'm hearing was never discussed until after Rummy was put on the spot at the town hall meeting. What if 450 is the correct level of planning and upping production to 550 is just public relations as a direct result of the forum comments? That would equal unnecessary spending. Of course the supplier will go on record in a position which will increase their profits. Briliant move. Most of the lefties will have a hard time here - who do they hate more, the government or a military contractor? All these postings assume "more is better". Typical. Why should that be correct vs just working to the plan? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #96 December 13, 2004 Quote"The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff ..." -- President George W. Bush, 10/28/2003 " they asked if we could help take care of the production of the banner. And we more than happy to do so" -- White House Spokesman Scott McClellan, 10/29/2003 OK so the banner was the ships idea, and they asked the WH to make it? So fucking what? If a ship was returning from a combat tour and they called me to see if I could hop over to the local "sign mart" and get something made for them...I would. That does not make it MY idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #97 December 13, 2004 QuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. Who is not supporting more armor for the troops? I just don't want to hang people for "not being ready to go to war". Since NO ONE is every ready to go to war. I doubt anyone would want to pay for what it would cost to have a peace time Army ready to go to war all the time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #98 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuote 1. The White House made the sign. Prove your cite - show me a link where that sign came from the White House. Quote 2. Major combat is when you get your troops killed. How many killed after May2003, compared with before? Major combat is ongoing. Which is why thr troops need the armor which Rummyanna didn't think would be necessary, since the Iraqis would be greeting our boys with roses. The ongoing major offensives (i.e., the initial assaults into Iraq) had ended by that time. A question: We (in general) don't question you on physics problems, as we know you have the experience in that field. So, WHY do you persist in telling those of us who HAVE served in the military what the meaning behind everything the military does is? I bet I know more about armor than you do. Besides, this is about political decision making, not military matters. It doesn't take a Staff Sergeant to recognize piss poor planning.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #99 December 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteAll this makes me wonder if the supporters of less armor for troops will cover up their "support the troops" stickers with "support Rumsfeld" stickers. I suspect not; I think there are a lot of people out there who like to say patriotic things until it comes time to actually pay for them. Who is not supporting more armor for the troops? I just don't want to hang people for "not being ready to go to war". Since NO ONE is every ready to go to war. Since this was an optional war, why did Bush choose to go to war when not ready? That takes it from the realm of mere incompetence to the realm of criminal negligence.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #100 December 13, 2004 QuoteI bet I know more about armor than you do. You ever worn it? Ever shot at it? Ever get issued a set? Or is all your knoledge based on math? Cause, Ive worn it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
